FF attacking the vulnerable

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

conchubhar1

yet - wont starve and have a house

they are vunerable, but not the ''real vulnerable''

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

themadchef

El Stuntman wrote: »

personally I'd start by scrapping Child Benefit 100%. Kids clothing, school books, health treatment to be provided free to all SW recipients.

So, i work for a living, and have 4 kids. You propose to just wipe the CB completely?

I have to laugh when i hear this and hear the "tax it, means test it" line of discussion. Generally, people talk about how they can take it away from the workers and no one (usually) talks about incentives to get off the SW. Why should they work when the benefits roll in?

I see a girl i went to school with regularly. Built a big house, 4 kids, both her and her partner unemployed. 2 cars, you name it..luxuries i dont have and yet me and my (ex) partner work like egits? Why? i often wonder. When i add it up, it costs me money to go to work (taking into account my childcare costs and adding in the SW i would be entitled to).

That's how some people see it. They deduct what they get from SW from the wages they would get from a potential job and say "to hell with it, i'm not working for €50 a week"

I'm probably not making much sense, but, to summarise, leave my CB alone

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

they also have no voice at any table talks of any kind , what i cant understand is why fine gael are not listening to the sleeping giant of middle ireland private sector workers , i realise speaking for captians of industry would be almost suicidal for a politician right now ( no matter how many jobs theese captains created ) but surely fine gael can see rewards for speaking up for small business

conchubhar1

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

not my definition
not enlightening anybody - brush the chip of your shoulder.


my point was as you view that group as the ''real vulnerable'' they are in no risk of dieing from their position in society

astrofool

conchubhar1 wrote: »

not my definition
not enlightening anybody - brush the chip of your shoulder.


my point was as you view that group as the ''real vulnerable'' they are in no risk of dieing from their position in society

The hospital cutbacks apply to everyone, is everyone now vulnerable?

What position in society do you have to be exclusively in to be more at risk of dying, than say, 2 years ago?

old boy

the bookies are so vunerable they are not being taxed as promised in the budget, (2% betting levy), it is ok as long as joe and josephine soap are being targeted, but big buisness are pampered, the guy with 2 to 10 employees ah well ?.

El Stuntman

themadchef wrote: »

I'm probably not making much sense, but, to summarise, leave my CB alone

I work for a living and have two kids yet I don't see why middle-class people should get a Social Welfare benefit that they don't need

anyway, luckily for you I don't make policy but I wouldn't depend on that 166pm from December onwards....

jmayo

Deleted User wrote: »

As a member of FF, gotta say that's pretty much it.

It is not black and white. I don't think anyone could seriously contend that FF are wilfully attacking the vulnerable. But people like Cowen cannot claim to have been left carrying the can for worldwide problems. He, and many of his fellow ministers, were the people whose job it was to intervene, to regulate the market, to channel the boom into projects or expenditure that would bring sustained benefits. They went for the quick fix too many times, throw money at pensions, throw money at the dole, smooth all obstacles to the buying and selling of land like reducing CGT, so he can't run for the hills now.

OMG conor you will kicked out of the local cummann.
You are the first ffer who has actually mentioned the fact that a good chunk of our mess is due to the way successive ff led governments managed the economy and you even list some of the worst policies.
Could you please have a chat with ninty99er and a few more of the soldiers ?

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

You are the first ffer who has actually mentioned the fact that a good chunk of our mess is due to the way successive ff led governments managed the economy and you even list some of the worst policies.

I'm not sure about that.

Come to a Cumann in South Kerry and listen to the mutterings about Brian, Brian and Mary. I think they are a disgrace, particularly Lenihan and Coghlan - I know they are soft targets, but they have their ineptitude to thanks for that. I also have serious issues with figures like Dempsey and Cullen. In fact, on top of the national problems, I have even more to complain about because they are destroying the party that I have supported and been involved with for 20 years now. Even FF haters approached me after the recent local election and said, cynicism aside, the sad thing was that FF lost a few local politicians that were capable and good representatives...and they would have said there wasn't many to begin with.

El Stuntman

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure about that.

Come to a Cumann in South Kerry and listen to the mutterings about Brian, Brian and Mary. I think they are a disgrace, particularly Lenihan and Coghlan - I know they are soft targets, but they have their ineptitude to thanks for that. I also have serious issues with figures like Dempsey and Cullen. In fact, on top of the national problems, I have even more to complain about because they are destroying the party that I have supported and been involved with for 20 years now. Even FF haters approached me after the recent local election and said, cynicism aside, the sad thing was that FF lost a few local politicians that were capable and good representatives...and they would have said there wasn't many to begin with.

jaybus - something stirring in the grass roots down Kerry way Conor?

maybe you could get Jackie Healy-Rea to return and lead you back to former glories :eek:

El Stuntman

El Stuntman wrote: »

maybe you could get Jackie Healy-Rea to return and lead you back to former glories :eek:

Maybe not Jackie, but one or two are concerned that his son might reenter the fold before the next election, which would cause ructions. Yes, it would be madness, particularly as this is a 2 seater next time round and (assuming FG hold their seat) if FF put up a good candidate they might be able to wrest the seat back off the Healy Raes, but never underestimate the ability of FF HQ to impose nonsense that leaves the rank and file scratching their heads...

Het-Field

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not sure about that.

Come to a Cumann in South Kerry and listen to the mutterings about Brian, Brian and Mary. I think they are a disgrace, particularly Lenihan and Coghlan - I know they are soft targets, but they have their ineptitude to thanks for that. I also have serious issues with figures like Dempsey and Cullen. In fact, on top of the national problems, I have even more to complain about because they are destroying the party that I have supported and been involved with for 20 years now. Even FF haters approached me after the recent local election and said, cynicism aside, the sad thing was that FF lost a few local politicians that were capable and good representatives...and they would have said there wasn't many to begin with.

In terms of fulfilling their mandates, the likes of Cowen, Coughlan and Lenihan are far more deserving of seat loss then most of the FF County Council team.

Dannyboy83

El Stuntman wrote: »

in any case this argument is completely pointless - the hounds of hell wouldnt be able to put a halt to the cost cutting that is to come and that will include all aspects of the SW budget

personally I'd start by scrapping Child Benefit 100%. Kids clothing, school books, health treatment to be provided free to all SW recipients.

then I'd move on to actually using the government's bulk purchasing power and negotiate a discount scheme with all the food retailers. Bang - every SW recipient gets 75 euro a week in food vouchers (can be spent on food only, no alcohol or cigarette purchases). Free travel for SW receipients too.

Then I'd cut the dole to 50 euro per week cash payment.

Immediately cut rent allowances by 30% - if landlords don't like it, there's 300,000 empties out there.

Institute a 'make work' scheme for all physically able dole recipients. 2 days a week you work for your community - painting walls in classrooms, cleaning beaches, maintaining parks and playgrounds, planting trees, training underage GAA teams etc. Gives unemployed a sense of purpose and also pride\ownership in their community.

cue calls of 'fascist' but hey, I've just saved 10 billion.

Some good points there.

About the rent allowance, I think it works out to nearly €300 per month or something alone those lines. A pal from France was telling me when he was a student, they were renting a big house for €400 pm. Total.
Not really hard to see why average rent is therefore €800.

Regarding the SW, I've heard the phrase "funemployed" a few times now, i.e. money and time spent on booze.
Clearly there are not many jobs out there, but not much incentive to go look for one either tho.

Was it like that in the 80s? I was under the impression most people went abroad or start their own businesses, etc.

Lastly, a few pals from the gym (Polish lads), told me they're better off here on the SW than returning to Poland to get a job.
Its their right and their entitlement as they have contributed to this country for years, but I just think it says a lot about the situation that people choose to remain unemployed here, rather than get a job elsewhere.

jochenstacker

Problems started when jobs became available, people had money, go on a spending spree, buy everything in the shop without even asking how much it costs.
The retailers realised "hey I can jack the prices up and up and no one cares!"
So people had to borrow more and more for their houses, cars, furniture, meals out, pub, concerts, holidays, kids parties, etc... and that was just the beginning.
So salaries had to be raised, prices went up, banks pumped more and more money into the mix, FF cut taxes to maximise spending, people borrowed and spent and so forth.
The actual economy went about 2 years ago when manufacturing jobs started to go, but what the hell, strong banks and construction will keep us going forever, won't they?
Now we have the most expensive country in Europe, because everyone wanted a bigger slice of the pie, prices are higher, rent is higher so you need more money if you're unemployed.
The rest of Europe can pay less dole money because the cost of living is lower.
I've been to Paris and thought it was moderately priced compared to Dublin and that's saying something.
Now everyone wants to hold on to their ridiculous salaries and continue to pay 21% tax, after a hefty tax free portion of their salaries.
In most countries you won't see half your money, that's because it goes on taxes, so the state can provide services.
Services that you won't possible ever get here, not with the piddling amount of tax the government gets, now that the silly money from houses and cars has dried up.
To run any kind of a civilized country you won't see 50% of your salary, but that's made up with lower consumer prices.
Ireland has got it arseways.

irish_bob

jochenstacker wrote: »

Problems started when jobs became available, people had money, go on a spending spree, buy everything in the shop without even asking how much it costs.
The retailers realised "hey I can jack the prices up and up and no one cares!"
So people had to borrow more and more for their houses, cars, furniture, meals out, pub, concerts, holidays, kids parties, etc... and that was just the beginning.
So salaries had to be raised, prices went up, banks pumped more and more money into the mix, FF cut taxes to maximise spending, people borrowed and spent and so forth.
The actual economy went about 2 years ago when manufacturing jobs started to go, but what the hell, strong banks and construction will keep us going forever, won't they?
Now we have the most expensive country in Europe, because everyone wanted a bigger slice of the pie, prices are higher, rent is higher so you need more money if you're unemployed.
The rest of Europe can pay less dole money because the cost of living is lower.
I've been to Paris and thought it was moderately priced compared to Dublin and that's saying something.
Now everyone wants to hold on to their ridiculous salaries and continue to pay 21% tax, after a hefty tax free portion of their salaries.
In most countries you won't see half your money, that's because it goes on taxes, so the state can provide services.
Services that you won't possible ever get here, not with the piddling amount of tax the government gets, now that the silly money from houses and cars has dried up.
To run any kind of a civilized country you won't see 50% of your salary, but that's made up with lower consumer prices.
Ireland has got it arseways.

irelands public sector workers , police , teachers , nurses , doctors are on average paid about 30% more than thier european counterparts , when the bulk of funding towards the public sector goes on wages instead of patrol cars , blackboards and beds , services to the tax payer tend to be 2nd rate , the problem is not a lack of funding , its a problem of malfunding

solice

irish_bob wrote: »

irelands public sector workers , police , teachers , nurses , doctors are on average paid about 30% more than thier european counterparts , when the bulk of funding towards the public sector goes on wages instead of patrol cars , blackboards and beds , services to the tax payer tend to be 2nd rate , the problem is not a lack of funding , its a problem of malfunding

I agree with you, too much is spent on salaries and not enough on the services. But I notice time and time again that people say that Irish public service workers are paid more than their EU counterparts, you say by as much as 30%. Now I believe that they are paid too much so im not trying to contradict you. But, can the difference be accounted for by things like the minimum wage in Ireland being much higher than in many other EU countries. Its a bit disingenous to say they are paid more without trying to explain the reasons behind it.

Now I hate the unions and I believe that they are responsible for the public sector being paid more than they should. But at the end of the day, basic pay in Ireland is more than the basic pay in many EU countries.

I am completly open to correction on that and would love to be contradicted

asdasd

Certainly Irish people are paid vastly more than the British given the current exchange rate. British MPs are on a standard rate of about 67K euro ( £69K). For instance.

Spudmonkey

solice wrote: »

I agree with you, too much is spent on salaries and not enough on the services. But I notice time and time again that people say that Irish public service workers are paid more than their EU counterparts, you say by as much as 30%. Now I believe that they are paid too much so im not trying to contradict you. But, can the difference be accounted for by things like the minimum wage in Ireland being much higher than in many other EU countries. Its a bit disingenous to say they are paid more without trying to explain the reasons behind it.

Now I hate the unions and I believe that they are responsible for the public sector being paid more than they should. But at the end of the day, basic pay in Ireland is more than the basic pay in many EU countries.

I am completly open to correction on that and would love to be contradicted

I agree the minimum wage is too high here, but is it also the same for private sector workers. Is a private sector worker here on the same as an equivalent in Europe. This will give a better indication as to whether the public sector here are paid too much

solice

Spudmonkey wrote: »

I agree the minimum wage is too high here, but is it also the same for private sector workers. Is a private sector worker here on the same as an equivalent in Europe. This will give a better indication as to whether the public sector here are paid too much

Well you cant really compare average salaries in the private sector in Ireland with that in any country in the EU. You would have to break it down by the different sectors etc...an Electronic Engineer working in Intel will earn more than an Electrician working for a facilities company. The Irish export economy is based more on exporting services than exporting manufactured goods, which would be the norm for all Eastern European countries and quiet a few western european countries. Average salaries wouldnt really be a good comparator for the private sector.

Spudmonkey

solice wrote: »

You would have to break it down by the different sectors etc.

Exactly, I mean comparing people in the same discipline. I.e an designer in intel versus a designer in Spain, both doing the same job. Are they comparible with the teacher here versus the teacher in Spain for example.

asdasd

I.e an designer in intel versus a designer in Spain, both doing the same job

Well Intel isn't in Spain, afaik. If a country attracts more highly paid jobs for whatever reason ( education, tax breaks etc.) then it will have a private sector which is incomparable to a private sector elsewhere.

Spudmonkey

asdasd wrote: »

Well Intel isn't in Spain, afaik. If a country attracts more highly paid jobs for whatever reason ( education, tax breaks etc.) then it will have a private sector which is incomparable to a private sector elsewhere.

No it isn't but I'm not sure where it has operations in Europe, I just took Spain as an example. I know there are different reasons a company might locate in a given country, but thats more with what will favour the company (through better workers, tax breaks etc). But surely wages are set by that countrys economy?

So if Ireland has a more expensive economy to live in, surely those wages can be compared? I mean if the minimum wage here can be compared with those in different countries?

I am in the private sector here, so believe me I'm not private sector bashing!!

Just inquiring is all!!

solice

Spudmonkey wrote: »

No it isn't but I'm not sure where it has operations in Europe, I just took Spain as an example. I know there are different reasons a company might locate in a given country, but thats more with what will favour the company (through better workers, tax breaks etc). But surely wages are set by that countrys economy?

The likes of IBM announcing yesterday the creation of 100 jobs, salaries probably werent important for them in the decision making process as to where to locate those 100 people, Ireland or Spain or wherever they were looking. It was the skillsets that were available in the country etc. But clearly a strong skillset will require a higher salary so yes, the economy dictates the salary to an extent, but so does the companys need to attract the right people for the job...maybe...

astrofool

solice wrote: »

The likes of IBM announcing yesterday the creation of 100 jobs, salaries probably werent important for them in the decision making process as to where to locate those 100 people, Ireland or Spain or wherever they were looking. It was the skillsets that were available in the country etc. But clearly a strong skillset will require a higher salary so yes, the economy dictates the salary to an extent, but so does the companys need to attract the right people for the job...maybe...

The total package cost to IBM will be important to them, with a significant portion of that being from salary.

They're likely being created here because:
They have the infrastructure here to provide a place of work
They have the space, as they have been reducing the workforce over a number of years
They get tax breaks on R&D jobs

They came here in the first place because of:
Low corp tax
Low wages

Low wages isn't true anymore, so some of the reasons they stay is because of the low corp tax, access to the EU jobs market, cost to move to another location and the knowledge embedded with their current employees, which they would lose if they moved.

It's good for the country, but we have to be able to attract newer companies here to replace the likes of Dell, Gateway etc.

asdasd

No it isn't but I'm not sure where it has operations in Europe, I just took Spain as an example.

Yes but just as you cant compare Electricians to Electronic Engineers in Ireland, you cant compare Irish wages with Spain if we have more Intel engineers.

The thing a country with more skilled workers would be richer.

( this does not explain the total wage discrepency)

mikep

El Stuntman wrote: »

in any case this argument is completely pointless - the hounds of hell wouldnt be able to put a halt to the cost cutting that is to come and that will include all aspects of the SW budget

personally I'd start by scrapping Child Benefit 100%. Kids clothing, school books, health treatment to be provided free to all SW recipients.

then I'd move on to actually using the government's bulk purchasing power and negotiate a discount scheme with all the food retailers. Bang - every SW recipient gets 75 euro a week in food vouchers (can be spent on food only, no alcohol or cigarette purchases). Free travel for SW receipients too.

Then I'd cut the dole to 50 euro per week cash payment.

Immediately cut rent allowances by 30% - if landlords don't like it, there's 300,000 empties out there.

Institute a 'make work' scheme for all physically able dole recipients. 2 days a week you work for your community - painting walls in classrooms, cleaning beaches, maintaining parks and playgrounds, planting trees, training underage GAA teams etc. Gives unemployed a sense of purpose and also pride\ownership in their community.

cue calls of 'fascist' but hey, I've just saved 10 billion.

El Stuntman for taoiseach...the man speaks the truth!
All the welfare recipients in my neighbourhodd have sky digital....essential.... I think not!

Spudmonkey

asdasd wrote: »

Yes but just as you cant compare Electricians to Electronic Engineers in Ireland, you cant compare Irish wages with Spain if we have more Intel engineers.

The thing a country with more skilled workers would be richer.

( this does not explain the total wage discrepency)

But I'm not, I'm comparing like with like. For example, the company I work for has an office in Spain. There are designers there who do the same job as people here, (i.e same product line), are the same level of engineer, same skillset etc..

If there is a difference in wages between the offices here and there, this is due to the local economy, it is not dependant on the worker's skills.

If you can't compare two engineers in the same company, how can you compare workers between public sectors in different countries?

And whats more, but a huge chunk of the new engineers working here are from Spain as the quality of graduates is higher!!

solice

Spudmonkey wrote: »

But I'm not, I'm comparing like with like. For example, the company I work for has an office in Spain. There are designers there who do the same job as people here, (i.e same product line), are the same level of engineer, same skillset etc..

If there is a difference in wages between the offices here and there, this is due to the local economy, it is not dependant on the worker's skills.

If you can't compare two engineers in the same company, how can you compare workers between public sectors in different countries?

Subtract minimum wage from your salary, subtract minimum wage from their salary and whats the difference?

The minimum wage is not due to the local economy in Ireland, its due to the Govts. co-operation with Unions. We had a high minimum wage and a good economy and now we have a high minimum wage and a bad economy.