Scottish Independence

dlofnep

ART6 wrote: »

So, the impression I get is that the English people no longer have any interest in the Union and couldn't care less if it broke up tomorrow. In fact it feels as if a sizeable number would welcome it, particularly those who are the descendants of immigrants (like the Irish origin people who make up a much larger number than the population of Ireland), since they never really had a vision of empire or even a particular loyalty to it.

That much is true if based on British opinion on the north of Ireland.

The British Social attitudes survey, polled 19 times between the years of 1983 to 2007. On every given poll result, the British public has always voted on favour of Irish Unity over the north remaining in the Union.

(Poll data available here: http://www.britsocat.com/BodySecure.aspx?control=BritsocatMarginals&var=NIRELAND&SurveyID=221 (will require a login))

The British public is disinterested with the Union.

If Scotland wants independence, I would say it's probably better for Scotland and better for Britain as a total. I think Wales & England would still remain in the Union.. I don't think there is a serious movement for Independance within Wales, but there are certainly elements there judging from the comments I heard the last time over in a pub.

futurehope

T runner wrote: »

The insecurity of that statement is quite obvious.
Will be a tricky one for Irish Unionists in the North though. Are we British or Scottish?;)

I see what you mean. What I should have said was that The Union was in great peril to show how secure I am.:rolleyes:

I didn't know there were that many 'Irish' Unionists in 'da north', unless you mean Donegal. Or perhaps you mean SDLP/SF types currently acting as UK Crown ministers...

futurehope

dlofnep wrote: »

That much is true if based on British opinion on the north of Ireland.

The British Social attitudes survey, polled 19 times between the years of 1983 to 2007. On every given poll result, the British public has always voted on favour of Irish Unity over the north remaining in the Union.

Or were they voting for Irish Unity within The UK. If so - THANKS, BUT NO THANKS!

I guess the real problem is the 75% of people in British Ulster who don't favour Irish Unity. Oh, and also the people of The ROI who couldn't afford it under any circumstances.

:eek:

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

I guess the real problem is the 75% of people in British Ulster who don't favour Irish Unity.

:eek:

Where'd you get that number from? It's misleading and I suspect untrue.

Oh, and also the people of The ROI who couldn't afford it under any circumstances.

It wouldn't be as simple as the 6 counties being 'handed over' to the Republic of Ireland. There would be an amalgamation of both economies and the creation of a new Government, so I don't see why it would be much worse than how it is now in the South.

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

Or were they voting for Irish Unity within The UK.

Did you read what I said? It was a British attitudes survey, polled in Britain on the future of the north of Ireland. At no point did they ever favour the north remaining in the Union over Irish Unity. In 19 separate polls taken over a 20 year period. You're not wanted is what the British public is saying.

futurehope wrote: »

I guess the real problem is the 75% of people in British Ulster who don't favour Irish Unity. Oh, and also the people of The ROI who couldn't afford it under any circumstances.

Nice to see you pulling figures out of thin air - because there is no credible poll to backup those figures. Sinn Féin are the largest party in the North. They didn't get to be the largest party by trying to keep the Union upheld. It should also be noted that SF's vote count has been rapidly increasing, while DUP's has been decreasing. Last time around, 44% of the vote accounted for nationalist parties - So I fail to see how they support the Union at a ratio of 75%.

Secondly - What is "British Ulster"? Ulster is a province which consists of 9 counties in Ireland. As I understand it, Britain currently controls 6 of those counties. Unless of course you expanded since last night?

smcgiff

dlofnep wrote: »

Did you read what I said?

Don't encourage him:D

futurehope

DoireNod said:

Where'd you get that number from? It's misleading and I suspect untrue.

You're right - NI is even more opposed to a United Ireland than I previously thought. Read it and weep!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Do you think the long-term policy for Northern Ireland should be for it… [/FONT]

To remain part of the United Kingdom, with direct rule: 17%
To remain part of the United Kingdom, with devolved government: 53%
To reunify with the rest of Ireland: 18%
Independent state: 6%
Other: 2%
Don't Know: 5%

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

It wouldn't be as simple as the 6 counties being 'handed over' to the Republic of Ireland. There would be an amalgamation of both economies and the creation of a new Government, so I don't see why it would be much worse than how it is now in the South.

Ye, I see what you mean. The UK subsidises NI £3-4 billion per year, but Irish Unity will reduce this figure to zero. :rolleyes:

dlofnep

It's very well documented that Nationalists do not respond to such polls.

The proof is in the pudding. The largest political party in the North is Sinn Féin. The fact that nationalist parties gathered 44% of the vote at the last elections (probably high in the next as it is consistently increasing) shows full well that that poll isn't a credible source. Votes count - SF has increased it's vote in every election in the past decade at a dramatic rate. Ignore the reality of the matter if you wish.

I don't want to take this thread entirely off-topic. If we can all get back to discussing Scottish Independence, that would be fine with me.

futurehope

dlofnep said:

Nice to see you pulling figures out of thin air - because there is no credible poll to backup those figures.

See previous.

Sinn Féin are the largest party in the North. They didn't get to be the largest party by trying to keep the Union upheld. It should also be noted that SF's vote count has been rapidly increasing, while DUP's has been decreasing. Last time around, 44% of the vote accounted for nationalist parties - So I fail to see how they support the Union at a ratio of 75%.

I think the fact 40% of the electorate don't vote might explain that phenomena.:rolleyes:

Secondly - What is "British Ulster"? Ulster is a province which consists of 9 counties in Ireland. As I understand it, Britain currently controls 6 of those counties. Unless of course you expanded since last night?

Ulster was 9 counties - but let's say it still is. Britain rules 6 of them, so when I refer to British Ulster it might be I'm referring to the six counties ruled by Britain. :rolleyes:

Dozen Wicked Words

ah, how reassuring this thread has moved into familiar ground, with familiar arguments.

Anyhoo, I don't think too many people in England would mind Scotland gaining their independence, I think the cost of Scotland against possible lost income from Scotland would be minimal.

Sorry if that is a bit too on topic, lets get back to the real, comforting, territory of Unionism/Republicanism we all know and love.

futurehope

dlofnep wrote: »

It's very well documented that Nationalists do not respond to such polls.

Why, are they all cowards? Look, Loyalist paramilitaries have binned their weapons, you can start talking to women with questionnaires again.

:D:D

dlofnep

futurehope wrote: »

I think the fact 40% of the electorate don't vote might explain that phenomena.:rolleyes:

Not unless you claim that the 40% of the electorate consists entirely of unionists.

futurehope wrote: »

Ulster was 9 counties - but let's say it still is. Britain rules 6 of them, so when I refer to British Ulster it might be I'm referring to the six counties ruled by Britain. :rolleyes:

You can call it whatever you want. I'm not going to disturb this thread any further debating semantics. If we could let the lads debate Scotland, that would be fine by me. If you want to debate the north with me further - just drop me a comment.

conchubhar1

futurehope wrote: »

I think the fact 40% of the electorate don't vote might explain that phenomena.:rolleyes:

Ulster was 9 counties - but let's say it still is. Britain rules 6 of them, so when I refer to British Ulster it might be I'm referring to the six counties ruled by Britain. :rolleyes:

are you saying unionists are the main ones not voting - more out of the air shoite?

ulster is 9 counties -

british ulster = northern ireland/the six counties etc

the poster just chose to use a term which very very few use or even heard of

smcgiff

futurehope wrote: »

DoireNod said:



You're right - NI is even more opposed to a United Ireland than I previously thought. Read it and weep!

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Do you think the long-term policy for Northern Ireland should be for it… [/FONT]

To remain part of the United Kingdom, with direct rule: 17%
To remain part of the United Kingdom, with devolved government: 53%
To reunify with the rest of Ireland: 18%
Independent state: 6%
Other: 2%
Don't Know: 5%

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html



Ye, I see what you mean. The UK subsidises NI £3-4 billion per year, but Irish Unity will reduce this figure to zero. :rolleyes:

That's a flawed poll - or it certainly is if you're trying to get a full picture.
Where's the 'Become part of Ireland, but retain a devolved government' option?

All that poll shows is that most people in NI have a preferred option of being directly ruled by Dublin than London!

Besides, I don't know anyone that would be proud to be part of a region that had such dissatisfaction with the status Quo. Maybe Iraq or North Korea might be analogues .

Kev_ps3

Hopefully one day Scotland will be free, and their people in the north of Ireland will return home:)

oscarBravo

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Hopefully one day Scotland will be free, and their people in the north of Ireland will return home:)

There are Scottish people in the Republic as well.

conchubhar1

oscarBravo wrote: »

There are Scottish people in the Republic as well.

people have free access to live where they want
once they fufill the requirements

DoireNod

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Hopefully one day Scotland will be free, and their people in the north of Ireland will return home:)

haha yeah!

I was chatting to a guy at college who is from Edinburgh and we had this discussion along with our Irish independence talk. I remember him telling me that it would be a welcome development and also that a small area in the Scotland-England border could become Scottish after being 'English' for over 500 years or something. Berwick?

Gordon

Being Scottish, I'm not sure if independence is possible, it just may not make sense for the wider scheme. However, we have done well with our Parliament and have always had differing education and health systems and come out well from it afais.

Was watching a BBC documentary about it last night, couldn't see it linked here, if you are in Britain it's an interesting view (BBC iPlayer is only accessible from British IPs though, so sorry for linking) http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ldhjd/Panorama_Will_the_Scots_Ever_Be_Happy/

conchubhar1

i will try to watch that eventually - my gripe of bbc and their iplayer being british only was expressed before and off topic so ill leave it out

futurehope

conchubhar said:

are you saying unionists are the main ones not voting - more out of the air shoite?

You my friend fail to understand who unionists (with a small u) actually are. Hint - many of them don't wear sashes and quite a few of them cross themselves. But by all means disregard all the surveys you can't stomach. Meanwhile, I'll sit back laughing at the drones voting SF (INCREASING VOTE AT EVERY ELECTION!:D), as if it has any effect on Ulster's position within The UK.

ulster is 9 counties -

british ulster = northern ireland/the six counties etc

the poster just chose to use a term which very very few use or even heard of

You know now. Personally I don't care what you call C/M/D - perhaps you can call them Irish Ulster? Or perhaps the unlucky three?:D

conchubhar1

they want the union with britain to remain - there mere existence means that they feel that will end as it is under threat

yes their vote is increasing - then a referendum - then a united ireland

the six counties - not ulster - ulster is a province of nine counties

futurehope

smcgiff wrote: »

That's a flawed poll - or it certainly is if you're trying to get a full picture.
Where's the 'Become part of Ireland, but retain a devolved government' option?

All that poll shows is that most people in NI have a preferred option of being directly ruled by Dublin than London!

Besides, I don't know anyone that would be proud to be part of a region that had such dissatisfaction with the status Quo. Maybe Iraq or North Korea might be analogues .

Fantastic mate. I agree, the "Ulster as part of a United Ireland" option needed to be included and I'm sure would have carried the day for Ireland!:D

conchubhar1

ulster is a province

northern ireland as part of a united ireland would be the correct option.

nayorleck114

I thought this was boads.ie? Scotland will be indepdent is the scots want it. If they don't then no.

futurehope

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Hopefully one day Scotland will be free, and their people in the north of Ireland will return home:)

Cor blimey missus! - have you told that to SF's Unionist outreach team (giggle)? They're UNITED IRISHMEN don't you know!

You'll be getting knee capped (or bored to death, or whatever the current punishment for sectarianism is).

conchubhar1

true
i am a unionist - i want ireland united

josé stated it best in the other thread - ''orange troll, is orange''

Hookey

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i will try to watch that eventually - my gripe of bbc and their iplayer being british only was expressed before and off topic so ill leave it out

iPlayer is about the only thing I miss about England since I came back (and better takeaway food). Can't complain though, we don't pay the licence fee so they don't have the rights to give us iPlayer content even if they wanted to. Maybe if Project Kangaroo gets going again we'll be able to get streamed BBC content over here.

conchubhar1

i know i know

i just really want the good shows the bbc has - i want bbc scotland for gaelic shows and some of the irish content on the site for learners etc

Hookey

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i know i know

i just really want the good shows the bbc has - i want bbc scotland for gaelic shows and some of the irish content on the site for learners etc

Get Freesat; BBC Alba is on that.