Scottish Independence

Deedsie

I just watched it on youtube. pretty good.

Futurehope' keep up your brash comments on Sinn Feins pointless efforts to a United Ireland as you percieve them.

How does it feel having to share government with them? Sinn Fein are going to be the biggest party in the next general election in Northern Ireland. Your representative on an international stage will be a Sinn Fein member.

I have to admire your arrogant posts that Sinn Fein are a joke. Take a look at unionist politics for a minute will you? Diane Dodds, worst politician of all time. The shame.

Unionists have the majority in Northern Ireland at the moment, have to good sense to use this stable time to make Northern Ireland a better place.

Demographics change.

Actually this is a Scottish indepence thread so could everyone just disregard that and stay on topic. I realise have failed to do that.

futurehope

Deedsie wrote: »

How does it feel having to share government with them? Sinn Fein are going to be the biggest party in the next general election in Northern Ireland. Your representative on an international stage will be a Sinn Fein member.

Power sharing as it is at the moment creates few problems for me. You see there is a two way veto and as Unionists favour the status quo...

SF don't represent anyone 'on the international stage'. The entire UK is represented by Gordon Brown and his team. Delusions of grandeur I'm afraid.

Who knows, perhaps one day certain SF leaders will be dragged before the courts when they're no longer of any use to The UK state - Pinochet also thought he had an exemption...

jank

futurehope wrote: »

Who knows, perhaps one day certain SF leaders will be dragged before the courts when they're no longer of any use to The UK state - Pinochet also thought he had an exemption...

Eh what courts are these now.... and what charges?

oscarBravo

Can we keep this on topic? Thanks.

T runner

futurehope wrote: »

conchubhar said:




You know now. Personally I don't care what you call C/M/D - perhaps you can call them Irish Ulster? Or perhaps the unlucky three?:D

All of Ulster is Irish, its in Ireland after all. 6 counties are ruled supranationally but that doesnt make them part of Britain. I see the Oxford dictionaries etc are finally dropping the term British Isles in favour of British and Irish Isles so you wont even be able to make that tenous rationalisation of the absurd idea that part of Ireland is actually part of Britain.:D

I think you know the vast majority of people in D/M/C would actually consider themselves lucky. They know how people have suffered under the regime in NI since partition. They've done quite OK in those 3 counties.

T runner

futurehope wrote: »

I see what you mean. What I should have said was that The Union was in great peril to show how secure I am.:rolleyes:

Blatantly overemphasising something that is clearly untrue smacks of insecurty.
You hope its true and therefore try to make it a reality by emphasising it more.

I didn't know there were that many 'Irish' Unionists in 'da north', unless you mean Donegal. Or perhaps you mean SDLP/SF types currently acting as UK Crown ministers.

But Scottish, Welsh and English people are allowed to be ministers in the UK government. Are you saying that Irish people arent? I would complain to the UK government if I were you for racial discrimination!

So will you still call yourselves British or change your "nationality" to Scottish, if Scotland gain independence?

Will be even more confusing for the unfortunate protestant youngsters when it comes to brainwashing them about their nationality.

Why dont ye call yourselves "anything but Irish"? Not an honest way to define where youre from but closer to the truth at least.


I dont see Scotland gaining independence in the medium term. If the UK does not go with the Euro they may decide to go that route. Having the Euro in place makes it easier for them.

futurehope

T runner said:

All of Ulster is Irish, its in Ireland after all.

No, it's on The ISLAND of Ireland.

6 counties are ruled supranationally but that doesnt make them part of Britain.

No, they're part of The UK.

I see the Oxford dictionaries etc are finally dropping the term British Isles in favour of British and Irish Isles so you wont even be able to make that tenous rationalisation of the absurd idea that part of Ireland is actually part of Britain.

Well it's just as well I don't maintain my political views based upon The Oxford Dictionary then - even if it is British. When does The Irish version come out? I presume you use dictionaries?

I think you know the vast majority of people in D/M/C would actually consider themselves lucky. They know how people have suffered under the regime in NI since partition. They've done quite OK in those 3 counties.

Yes, I'm sure they do consider themselves lucky to have avoided the worst of The Provo jackboot - those who stayed. Most Protestants, of course, disappeared from that area for some reason (as for the rest of Ireland). Wonder why they all left The Irish paradise?

futurehope

T runner said:

But Scottish, Welsh and English people are allowed to be ministers in the UK government. Are you saying that Irish people arent? I would complain to the UK government if I were you for racial discrimination!

The Ulster British are able to become Crown Ministers - there was one in the last Tory government (and I suspect there will be in the next).

So will you still call yourselves British or change your "nationality" to Scottish, if Scotland gain independence?

I think I should point something out here. Not all The Ulster British came from Scotland. Even the term Ulster Scots is used to cover all those in Ulster who were planted - Scots, English, Welsh, Huguenots, etc. In the freakishly unlikely event of Scottish 'independence', The PUL community in British Ulster would remain British Ulstermen, or Ulster Scots, if you prefer.

Why dont ye call yourselves "anything but Irish"? Not an honest way to define where youre from but closer to the truth at least.

Yes, It's a bit clumsy, but certainly not problematic to me.

I dont see Scotland gaining independence in the medium term. If the UK does not go with the Euro they may decide to go that route. Having the Euro in place makes it easier for them.

There's no chance of The UK adopting The Euro - it would not get past The UK people under any circumstances - even under Labour.

Of course, if Scotland went 'independent', and introduced The Euro, well, it wouldn't really be independent at all would it? A bit like The Irish.

ChocolateSauce

futurehope wrote: »

Of course, if Scotland went 'independent', and introduced The Euro, well, it wouldn't really be independent at all would it? A bit like The Irish.

By that measure, I'd say I'm fairly happy with our lack of independence in that area. Independent doesn't automatically equal good (as many Scots certainly seem to believe).

oscarBravo

Let me rephrase my earlier suggestion:

Can we keep this on topic? Thanks.

T runner

futurehope wrote: »

T runner said:



The Ulster British are able to become Crown Ministers - there was one in the last Tory government (and I suspect there will be in the next).


I think I should point something out here. Not all The Ulster British came from Scotland. Even the term Ulster Scots is used to cover all those in Ulster who were planted - Scots, English, Welsh, Huguenots, etc. In the freakishly unlikely event of Scottish 'independence', The PUL community in British Ulster would remain British Ulstermen, or Ulster Scots, if you prefer.

What about the "Ulster British" descended from "Irish" to use your incorrect terminology. Plenty of protestants with "Irish" surnames eh?

Yes, It's a bit clumsy, but certainly not problematic to me.

At last the truth. We are not really British, we just hate the idea of being Irish.

There's no chance of The UK adopting The Euro - it would not get past The UK people under any circumstances - even under Labour.

Of course, if Scotland went 'independent', and introduced The Euro, well, it wouldn't really be independent at all would it? A bit like The Irish.

Currency doesnt determine independence self government does so the Irish people who live in the republic (4.5 million) are independent whereas the Irish people who live in North (1.6 million) are not independent.

If Scotland introduced the Euro it would have the same currency as the rest of Europe and more open access to that market and more protection should
disaster strike again. Sterling may be too weak after a UK rejection. The financial district in London's star would fall if its future was tied permanently to sterling.

(BTW we do use dictionaries here despite what your parents brainwashed you to believe. There are many Irish dictionaries available ofcourse. Any Ulster Scots ones? Ofcourse not, just kidding. The point about the Oxford dictionary is that it reflects the belief that the term "British Isles" is a politicised term rather than a geographical and therefore out of date. It was first used by the English after the right of Conquest of Ireland in the sixtennth century so the political view of the term is accurate. It does mean that it becomes quite difficult to rationalise you are British apart from the fact that one of your ancestors may have left Britain for Ireland 4-500 years ago. It means that everyone Acknowledges your Irish now: even the British acknowledge youre Irish!.:D

futurehope

T runner said:

What about the "Ulster British" descended from "Irish" to use your incorrect terminology. Plenty of protestants with "Irish" surnames eh?

Not a problem. The Ulster British aren't primarily a racial group, nor are The Irish - or maybe you think The Irish are? Should a Swedish family arrive in Ulster, their children would be welcome in The PUL community. Should a Unionist arrive from The ROI, the same would apply.

Currency doesnt determine independence self government does so the Irish people who live in the republic (4.5 million) are independent whereas the Irish people who live in North (1.6 million) are not independent.

You're very naive about what constitutes self government. But then that can be very helpful psychologically when you're from a micro-nation.

The people of 'da north' are part of The UK - an independent state - with it's own currency.

oscarBravo

Subtlety doesn't seem to be getting me anywhere. T runner and futurehope: if either of you continue to try to make this thread about Northern Ireland, you're looking at at least a month's ban.

Fratton Fred

I think the point people tend to miss is why would scotland want independance? There would be huge costs involved, a massive upheaval in people's everyday life for what exactly? The ideal of an independant scotland is one thing, but most scots I know see it as about important as the UK becoming a republic, or the monarchy/catholicism debate. In an ideal world these things would be changed, but to go through the mass upheaval and end up where you were before is pointless.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

dlofnep wrote: »

That much is true if based on British opinion on the north of Ireland.

The British Social attitudes survey, polled 19 times between the years of 1983 to 2007. On every given poll result, the British public has always voted on favour of Irish Unity over the north remaining in the Union.

(Poll data available here: http://www.britsocat.com/BodySecure.aspx?control=BritsocatMarginals&var=NIRELAND&SurveyID=221 (will require a login))

The British public is disinterested with the Union.

If Scotland wants independence, I would say it's probably better for Scotland and better for Britain as a total. I think Wales & England would still remain in the Union.. I don't think there is a serious movement for Independance within Wales, but there are certainly elements there judging from the comments I heard the last time over in a pub.

Yeah this is a tad off topic, but I'm curious at the increasing number that wish NI to remain part of the UK. Any theories?

hopalong85

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

Yeah this is a tad off topic, but I'm curious at the increasing number that wish NI to remain part of the UK. Any theories?

Here's an idea. Read the post you quoted again. This time read it properly.

Zuiderzee

Every nation has a right to self determination.

Let them have a referendum - and regardless of result not have another for a set period of time.

The SNP have done quite well in Government in what they have achieved.

If Scotland went for independence they could and would re-negotiate their oil and gas deals with the multi-nationals, that would settle the economy somewhat, and it is something we could learn from with reference to the Corrib field.

A major problem at the moment would be as to who would carry the can for the RBS bank fiasco - it was decided by a Scottish PM and Scottish Chancellor decided in a UK parliament - very tricky, but interesting.

FutureTaoiseach

My impression looking at the polls is that Home Rule has taken most of the wind out of the sails of the Scottish independence movement. The SNP-Green govt comprises just 1/3rd of the seats and could be brought down at any time by a motion of no confidence. I agree that it could finance independence from North Sea oil - but that presumes that Westminster will accept them coming under exclusive Scottish jurisdiction - something I suspect they would be unlikely to allow. In a weird kind of a way then, perhaps we can be thankful the British didn't give us All-Ireland Home Rule, as had they done so, we might still be arguing as to whether full independence could be economically viable, like the Scots.

Scots 'want an independence vote'
Man putting vote in ballot box
The Scottish Government wants a referendum next year

An opinion poll commissioned by BBC Scotland has shown a clear majority (58%) of Scots want a referendum on independence next year.

The poll also suggests support for the Union outstrips that for independence from the UK.

However, the poll found the percentage of people saying they support independence varies widely depending on how the question is phrased.

The Scottish Government wants to hold a referendum on the issue in 2010.

The poll of 1,010 people, carried out between 22 and 24 June by ICM, found 58% of respondents were in favour of the idea of holding a referendum next year on whether Scotland should become independent, with only 37% against.

When asked "In a referendum on independence for Scotland, how would you vote?", 38% responded that they believed Scotland should become an independent country, with 54% saying they did not believe it should become independent.

However, the pollsters also asked a separate question asking whether people agreed or disagreed that "the Scottish Government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state" - the preferred wording of the Scottish Government for a future referendum.

In this case, 42% agreed with the statement, with 50% opposed.The poll also asked which of a range of scenarios were closest to people's views of how Scotland should be governed.

Under this wording, only 28% backed the option of Scotland becoming independent of the rest of the UK, with 47% in favour of remaining in the UK, with the Scottish Parliament able to make some decisions about the level of taxation and government spending in Scotland.

A further 22% said Scotland should remain part of the UK, with decisions about the level of taxation and spending in Scotland made by the UK Government.

Finally, respondents were asked whether they believed it was likely or unlikely Scotland would become completely independent from the UK within the next 20 years.

The results showed that 10% thought it was very likely and 28% believed it was quite likely.

However, a larger percentage were not so sure, with 34% responding that it was quite unlikely and 24% believing independence was very unlikely.

Zuiderzee

As an aside -

futurehope wrote: »

T runner said:

"All of Ulster is Irish, its in Ireland after all"

No, it's on The ISLAND of Ireland.

Thats fairly pedantic - On/ In - same difference, one Island

futurehope wrote: »

T runner said:
"6 counties are ruled supranationally but that doesnt make them part of Britain. "
No, they're part of The UK.

Yes, part of the UK but - being pedantic - not part of Britain.
It is - as the passport cover says, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

futurehope wrote: »

Wonder why they all left The Irish paradise?

Well my lot, and many others, are still here?

Oh, and Huguenots did not come here in the sense that you use it.
They came after the plantations.

Zuiderzee

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Home Rule has taken most of the wind out of the sails of the Scottish independence movement.

Roll on Easter :pac:

Richard

T runner wrote: »

The insecurity of that statement is quite obvious.
Will be a tricky one for Irish Unionists in the North though. Are we British or Scottish?;)

People from the UK are British Citizens. If NI remains part of the UK then Unionists (and others) will remain British.

Northern isn't, nor ever has been Scottish.

getz

its strange but here i am living near blackpool,which most of the summer packed out with scottish people,and i have still yet to meet one who wants a independent scotland, mind you most of the scots i know are working class .and mainly vote labour

futurehope

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Every nation has a right to self determination.

Define a nation.

If you can define a nation, then explain why self determination should be limited to that type of entity.

What if Scotland votes for independence, but The Shetland Islands vote against? Can The Shetland Islands form their own state? Can they choose to remain part of The UK?

Deedsie

futurehope wrote: »

Define a nation.

If you can define a nation, then explain why self determination should be limited to that type of entity.

What if Scotland votes for independence, but The Shetland Islands vote against? Can The Shetland Islands form their own state? Can they choose to remain part of The UK?

Ya the Shetlanders would be more likely to to vote for independence from the UK than Scotland.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/malachy-tallack/2007/04/shetland-scotland-independence

getz

Deedsie wrote: »

Ya the Shetlanders would be more likely to to vote for independence from the UK than Scotland.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/malachy-tallack/2007/04/shetland-scotland-independence

its not as simple as you think ,the culture of the shetland isle is now scot/english with the large oil working population, i believe they would vote a no change,

futurehope

Deedsie wrote: »

Ya the Shetlanders would be more likely to to vote for independence from the UK than Scotland.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/malachy-tallack/2007/04/shetland-scotland-independence

Yes, but that wasn't the question - let me repeat it for you:

IF Scotland voted for independence, BUT The Shetland Islands voted against, would The Shetland Islands be able to remain part of The UK?

Deedsie

futurehope wrote: »

Yes, but that wasn't the question - let me repeat it for you:

IF Scotland voted for independence, BUT The Shetland Islands voted against, would The Shetland Islands be able to remain part of The UK?

I suppose they should get there own Shetland vote on the issue as should Cornwall.

Fratton Fred

Deedsie wrote: »

I suppose they should get there own Shetland vote on the issue as should Cornwall.

and why not Berkshire, or Yorkshire?

you could argue that munster has more of a right to self determination than Cornwall has, yet Cornwall is often the county banded about as being independant.

WRT the Shetland Islands, that would be hilarious, Scotland get independance and then the Shetlands bugger off with all the oil

oscarBravo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

WRT the Shetland Islands, that would be hilarious, Scotland get independance and then the Shetlands bugger off with all the oil

...leading to Scotland invading the Shetlands and taking the oil by force.

Remind me again why self-determination of arbitrary groups of people is better than large groups of people forming constructive political unions?

Deedsie

oscarBravo wrote: »

...leading to Scotland invading the Shetlands and taking the oil by force.

Remind me again why self-determination of arbitrary groups of people is better than large groups of people forming constructive political unions?

Aggressive colonialism and the scars that exist all over the world as a result of it.