Patriotic Government, yeah right.

tankedtoo

Not sure if this is the right place for this but I think it's relevant.

My brother's company works with a government department quite a bit. They were just putting in for a support contract on some software they created. The government choose a different company, a company they know are using staff in the middle east to do the job. Now don't me wrong I'm not suggesting that the government should pay any price. But when they have been dealing very successfully with an Irish company over several years and been charged very much a fair price for it, in my opinion it's very wrong in the current situation to shaft them. Based not on value but simply on price. We're one of the few countries in the EU that actually stick to the letter of procurement rules, in many countries if you're not from that country and using staff from that country you simply won't get the job.

I'm tempted to go to the press but I honestly wouldn't know where to start. What do you think?

mikemac

But this would have been tendered across the EU. Any company that was interested could have tried for it.

And even then they had to get somebody outside the EU.

Sure the government wasn't applying EU procurement rules we'd have complaining too.
I can't see what they have done wrong here especially if they've gone for the value deal or best price.

And if the Irish company can't compete, well they better improve when the next contract comes up

I understand that the government may have saved money on a contract but may lose money if the PAYE workers at the Irish company lose their jobs.
But it's not for the government to prop up overpriced Irish companies with contracts that can be done better elsewhere

silverharp

mikemac wrote: »

But it's not for the government to prop up overpriced Irish companies with contracts that can be done better elsewhere

your right, they do that with subsidies and ad hoc policy

tankedtoo

mikemac wrote: »

But this would have been tendered across the EU. Any company that was interested could have tried for it.

And even then they had to get somebody outside the EU.

No they hired an 'Irish company' who's support staff are in the Middle East and the government knew their support staff are in the Middle East.

mikemac wrote: »

Sure the government wasn't applying EU procurement rules we'd have complaining too.
I can't see what they have done wrong here especially if they've gone for the value deal or best price.

I think the procurement rules in general are a very good thing. However it seems we in Ireland are following them but many other EU countries are not so the playing field isn't level.
They simply went for the lowest price because they want to save money. They asked for x level of support, but they were basically saying we're not going to have breakfast to save money on food. They simply ignored the reality, and replaced it with what they'd like the reality to be. And bringing in a company that knows nothing about what they do isn't going to be ultimately cheaper, even with staff working in a cheaper part of the world.

mikemac wrote: »

And if the Irish company can't compete, well they better improve when the next contract comes up

If someone is paying less that half the wages you are it's not very easy to compete. Also the simple fact is in this instance the government choose to ignore the reality on the ground and get the support they wanted at the price they wanted, this ultimately can't work since it doesn't address the simple reality.

mikemac wrote: »

I understand that the government may have saved money on a contract but may lose money if the PAYE workers at the Irish company lose their jobs.
But it's not for the government to prop up overpriced Irish companies with contracts that can be done better elsewhere

I'm not suggesting protectionism but I am suggesting being fair to Irish companies. Especially ones that have never been over-priced to begin with. I am saying categorically that I don't think it will be done better elsewhere, they ignored value and went with price. It just doesn't help when the money is also going straight out of the country.

Micilin Muc

The Defences Forces Canteen Board have recently chosen an English supplier of chicken instead of an Irish supplier. Not good for Irish industry.

I'm sure there's a lot of legalities in forcing them to use an Irish supplier ...

solice

tankedtoo wrote: »

Not sure if this is the right place for this but I think it's relevant.

My brother's company works with a government department quite a bit. They were just putting in for a support contract on some software they created. The government choose a different company, a company they know are using staff in the middle east to do the job. Now don't me wrong I'm not suggesting that the government should pay any price. But when they have been dealing very successfully with an Irish company over several years and been charged very much a fair price for it, in my opinion it's very wrong in the current situation to shaft them. Based not on value but simply on price. We're one of the few countries in the EU that actually stick to the letter of procurement rules, in many countries if you're not from that country and using staff from that country you simply won't get the job.

I'm tempted to go to the press but I honestly wouldn't know where to start. What do you think?

I appreciate where you are coming from but take a step back and view the whole picture. Do you think its ok for the Govt. to spend more of tax payers money on something they could have gotten cheaper...

Why didnt your company match the price?

ejmaztec

Not saying that this is the case with the OP's situation, but many different kinds of businesses up their quotes where tax-payers' money is involved.

Would this particular company quote the same on a private-sector contract?

tankedtoo

solice wrote: »

I appreciate where you are coming from but take a step back and view the whole picture. Do you think its ok for the Govt. to spend more of tax payers money on something they could have gotten cheaper...

Why didnt your company match the price?

But it's not like for like. My brothers company bent over backwards and never charged over the odds for what they supplied. The government asked for x amount of support which has absolutely no basis in reality. So either they won't get the support they actually need or it will cost much more in the long run. As I said above it's like giving up breakfast to save money on food. They were getting very good value but not the lowest price and I honestly believe that is the case.

And seriously if they hire some guys from China, for example, how is a local company supposed to compete unless they hire some guys from China too. Which is going to put more Irish people out of work and cost even more money.

tankedtoo

ejmaztec wrote: »

Not saying that this is the case with the OP's situation, but many different kinds of businesses up their quote where tax-payers' money is involved.

Would this particular company quote the same on a private-sector contract?

The government are not good at getting value true. The system generally allows for taking the most advantageous quote. However if all the quotes are high there is no mechanism to simply say we'd like this ten percent cheaper. If all the boxes are not ticked then a tender is rejected even if in all other respects it's the best one. There is no mechanism to go back and say please tick the box.

Actually anyone have the complete procurement rule set?

Dannyboy83

Nothing really new here tbh.

May I draw your attention to this?
http://blog.arekibo.com/2009/02/fianna-fail-website-unpatrioticso-much-for-supporting-irish-industry/

This was after lambasting Irish people for shopping across the border and not buying Irish.
There was a good thread about it in this forum about 6 months ago

LOL:pac:

JonathanAnon

People rang in to Liveline about this sort of thing a few times. Especially when government Ministers are encouraging us to do our patriotic duty, by NOT shopping up the north.