Mark yesterdays date...

Biggins

Mark yesterdays date as it is a date that will go down in the infamy of this state.

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At 8.30pm on the 24th of June 2009 I was a witness to a crime - a national crime and/or disgrace!

I was seated in the public gallery of the Dail in Dublin at the invitation of Dr. James Reilly and Fergus O'Dowd TD's when a vote took place. On the agenda was a private members bill. It was a plea by Dr James Reilly (FG) to the government to release the 9 million Euro's needed so that Crumlin Hospital could FULLY provide the vital services its can provide when properly supported by a decent government.

A vote took place at 8.30 to decide if (a) the funding would be provided and as a consequence (b) to show if we had that decent government.

The result was utterly shocking.

By nine miserable votes the Government, Fianna Fail, the Green party and the Independents who have been bought off in many ways, decided NOT to help a national institution do the work that helps and stands for every child in this country. They voted NOT to provide just one percent of the total budget funds that can be allocated for the national health service.

The useless stone cold faced lump that is Mary Harney, who by the way was in hiding for the previous debate before 8.30 and only dared show her face when a vote was called for, joined her comrades in crime in helping to inflict further pain and suffering to our nations children.

After they took the vote to deny the vital needed funds there was shaking of hand, the patting of backs as seen and witnessed for example between Jackie Healy-Rae and Brian Cowen as they self congratulated themselves on a job NOT well done.

Never was a sickening sight so disgusting to see.

In the public gallery above looking down was many, many parents who had brought in their suffering children to let them hopefully witness those that might be able to aid the health problems. I personally witnessed one young family with a boy of 4/5 who clearly had physical bone structure scoliosis problems, become utterly devastated, dejected and angry as one by one of the elected TD's of this state in power, voted to deny the resources that might help their son above.

NEVER have I felt so angry in my life at seeing the devastation on their faces - caused by a morally corrupt gang below in the Dail.

Ladies and gentlemen, three weeks a go our leading figures in government swore when discussing previous abuses to children of our state, that they would from then on "Cherish our children".
It only took them three weeks from that to utterly destroy their credibility, lie and totally reverse that position by their actions in the Dail on the 24th of June.
JUST THREE WEEKS IS ALL IT TOOK!

The issue of Crumlin has gone further now than just an issue of helping our nations children, its gone further now than just keeping wards and theatres open. Its gone to the heart (or lack of one in our government) and lack of credibility of Fianna Fail, The Green and the useless Independents that last night voted to kick sick children they they are already down, even further.

On the 27th of June at 2pm a protest meeting outside Crumlins Hospital is taking place and I shall be addressing those there.
I shall be calling for a national day of protest at the ineffective, double-crossing actions actions of those still struggling to hold onto the reins of power.

Its NOT just about Crumlin any more, its NOT just about children any more.
Its about how this nation in just three weeks has allowed itself of utterly destroy promises to "cherish our children" in just three weeks and what we, the people can do to rectify that situation.

I hope some of you will try to be there on the day.

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We're talking here now about a political organisation, a government body that in the space of three weeks in the Dail, swore to uphold and respect our nations children after a terrible, terrible report on the abusing of children for many years, yet just three weeks later here we go again by deliberate inaction, further by their cruel actions inflict pain and suffering more on our children of this generation also.

If that alone is not a reason to protest and try and dissent, remove the useless shower that actually patted each other on their backs last night, grinning like Cheshire cats at each other for seconds before denying funds to keep a hospital running!
What (ironic) sick minds actually are able to do that and then behave disgracefully?
I'm sorry but if that is the way a TD, a supposed representative can behave in supposedly my name - I for one no longer want him/her there representing me.
If thats the case, we should all dissent as dissent people.

The manners, the lies stated in the Dail, the proven facts that were exposed last night in the Dail was/is a stain on our nations name and character.
If all the above is not reason to dissent, I don't know what is.

Would someone try and explain to this child...



and his parents why exactly the useless shower should still be supported?
Good god! What in hell does it take to get agreement that the morals of Cowen and Co have reached an all time low!
The above child will have to wait another YEAR at least because of their vote last night, for corrective surgery!

There was actual tears in parents eyes last night in the public gallery when the vote result was announced.
It was a terrible day for a nation.

Just three weeks was all it took to further expose the government shower for the evil, cruel shower that they are! Including the Greens and the Independents siding with Fianna Fail (who did it as a political manoeuvre to say in cahoots with FF).

A bad day indeed!

Yesterdays date is a date that in the future will be seen as a date which will go down in infamy!

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The motion for the funds was lost by 9 votes.
9 votes that cost 9.5 million pound! 9 votes that ensured that 1%, thats right, 1% of the money spent on our nations health care, wasn't going to be spent!
God fcuking god!!!

EVERY member of the opposition parties turned up to try and help our national institution.
JUST so they could be defeated, Fianna Fail last night dragged in every member of their own party, used every independent including the useless Jackie Rea (claimed €89,000 in expenses last year alone on top of his €210,000 Dail wage) and used the Greens too to get the funds turned down.

It was shocking sickening, disgraceful and shameful.

EVERY Fianna Fail person,
EVERY Independent,
EVERY Green party member can NO LONGER say they represent and cherish the lives of our children in this country.


They ought to ashamed of themselves for their actions last night, to their dying graves!

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I spoke yesterday morning live (at 8.15) on air on TV3's morning programme to the nation and to the presenters about the current situation, not just about my own child but about the situation in general.
All there in the studio on air - and more so off air, TOTALLY agreed that we have allowed those holding office to reach an all time low.

The whole situation is just terrible, terrible.

This government doesn't give a damn about you or I any more. They just want to keep their asses in their political seats. Thats all.

For example: As the debate started the day before, for the time Mary Harney was actually in the Dail, she was too busy fixing her hair, texting on her phone and chatting to all around her, than actually listen to other representatives of the nation that was supposed to be speaking on behalf of you and I.
She couldn't give a toss.
Last night she didn't even turn up (to a matter that DIRECTLY effects her department) till finally she was forced to - when a vote was called!
Where she was till then in the building you can quite guess yourself's!
...and that folks is the attitude of the present government that is lumping more taxes, levies, bills on YOUR heads.

Its far, far gone beyond the time for them to go...

Erin Go Brath

This is an absolute disgrace. :mad:

The pic of the child is a pretty low shot.

It's from the same line of political debate that saw SPUC and Youth Defence putting opictures of an aborted foetus on their posters years ago.

silverharp

I thought OP's had to offer some opinions

Biggins

silverharp wrote: »

I thought OP's had to offer some opinions

What I have written IS my opinion - as well as fact!
I would have thought that to be obvious to the rest of us.

As for using the picture above (as commented by another poster), that is clear evidence of how treatments can make a difference to lives.

NOT to show it, NOT to graphically explain why this issue is a critical one - would be a dis-service to the medical community, to the parents and to the children effected!
End of story. Sorry if the evidence of cancelled operations and whom it directly effects and the image of the effect of the cuts is not to ones liking!

Just imagine how parents feel however when they have to look at their child every morning and try to explain why our political masters are by inaction, keeping them that way!

Fratton Fred

Lets face it, €9m to help one seriously disabled child is worth it.

Shocking state of affairs.

Biggins

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lets face it, €9m to help one seriously disabled child is worth it.

Shocking state of affairs.

Thank you.
9 million to be honest to ensure all our nations children get a quicker treatment and surgery is definitely worth it.
Again it represents only 1% of their total budget for the year in regards to all our health care expenditure.

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lets face it, €9m to help one seriously disabled child is worth it.

And would you take it from a father of 5 with a brain tumour? Or someone who had just gone through the windscreen of a car? And if I put up pictures of either, would that be in order or would it just turn an already emotional thread into a battle?

Biggins

Deleted User wrote: »

And would you take it from a father of 5 with a brain tumour? Or someone who had just gone through the windscreen of a car? And if I put up pictures of either, would that be in order or would it just turn an already emotional thread into a battle?

It shouldn't be a battle, it shouldn't even become a hesitation in helping to solve a health problem where one exists.

Cutting to the chase, we shouldn't be denying a miserable 1% of a budget to a hospital that effects the whole countries children - not just one individual.

Fratton Fred

Deleted User wrote: »

And would you take it from a father of 5 with a brain tumour? Or someone who had just gone through the windscreen of a car? And if I put up pictures of either, would that be in order or would it just turn an already emotional thread into a battle?

personally I would take it out of the FAS budget, but I'm not in government.

There are dozens of ways this government can find the money if it wanted to, or if it had the balls to.

Jesus, even if they just rant he fcuking health servise properly it would help.

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

And would you take it from a father of 5 with a brain tumour? Or someone who had just gone through the windscreen of a car? And if I put up pictures of either, would that be in order or would it just turn an already emotional thread into a battle?

Is not even about taking it from somewhere. If you want to be cold and un-emotional about it then think of it this way:

Thosekids will grow up with those disabilities and they will have to be looked after, which will end up costing the state more in the future than it would to fix the problem now.

ART6

Fratton Fred wrote: »

personally I would take it out of the FAS budget, but I'm not in government.

There are dozens of ways this government can find the money if it wanted to, or if it had the balls to.

Jesus, even if they just rant he fcuking health servise properly it would help.

Like, maybe, not spending €17m on management consultants, presumably employed to advise Professor Drumm and co on how to manage an organisation, and instead sacking Drumm and employing someone who does know how to manage. Then spend half that saving on children's health?

Sleepy

What I found incredible was listening to a T.D. talk on Matt Cooper yesterday afternoon about how she was in the closed operating theatre with the surgeon, anaesthethist and nurses and how they all 'just wanted to get on with their jobs'...

If they wanted to get on with their jobs why weren't they in that operating theatre with a child in need of surgery instead of wasting time on a politician?

whippet

the €9m isn't the issue here.

You can't keep throwing money at a health system who absorb every penny and produce nothing.

last year over €60m was spent on taxis by the hospitals, a moron could cut €9m off this expense and then there would be funds available for the childrens hospital.

Biggins

Sleepy wrote: »

What I found incredible was listening to a T.D. talk on Matt Cooper yesterday afternoon about how she was in the closed operating theatre with the surgeon, anaesthethist and nurses and how they all 'just wanted to get on with their jobs'...

If they wanted to get on with their jobs why weren't they in that operating theatre with a child in need of surgery instead of wasting time on a politician?

Aaa... maybe because all the other theatres were in use and the remaining surgeons, etc had no where else to work in the building due to the closures?
So talking to a politician might have been their attempt at trying to let someone, let them get back to work?

A surgeon doesn't like not working. His/her skills are only as good based on the amount of time they spend actually using and perfecting their skills.
Being out of work for them is no joy.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

A surgeon doesn't like not working. His/her skills are only as good based on the amount of time they spend actually using and perfecting their skills.

Could they, between them work for a combined €9m less per annum if it meant finding the money for this child?

Yachts are cheaper, golf course fees have come down, I dare say they'd nearly survive the recession.

Joey the lips

Biggins what are you amazed at?

The fact that we cannot get our health and education system right or the fact that they will actually pull funding and inflict so much pain on people.

Just ask Batt o keaffe the minister for education why his funding cuts in special needs will actuially lead to more money being spent looking after these people in the next few years.


Biggins people like you are aleady convinced that is not the problem. Its the lazy good for nothing useless people that sit by and will sit by in the future and actually fail to voice or object to this. In fact they might not even vote considering they are that useless!

Thank you for bringing this to the front! Well done I am just sorry its a bad news story!

Sleepy

Biggins wrote: »

Aaa... maybe because all the other theatres were in use and the remaining surgeons, etc had no where else to work in the building due to the closures?

They were standing in an operating theatre at the time according to the TD in question.

Biggins

Deleted User wrote: »

Could they, between them work for a combined €9m less per annum if it meant finding the money for this child?

Yachts are cheaper, golf course fees have come down, I dare say they'd nearly survive the recession.

Its not just about personal fees, its about costs of turning on the operating room machines, and equipment, etc.
To try and place all the blame on just surgeons wages is a miserable attempt to sideline the rest of the other areas when/where costs/funds are involved.

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Side issue: If the Greens were hoping between now and the next election, to regain any credibility with the public in order to gain back any further support - this is THEE day in our nations history that they have put the nail in their coffin.

They could have supported our nations children,
They could thus have gotten the grateful thanks of our nations parents
They could have gotten the thanks of a grateful nation for doing the right thing for once.

...BUT NO!

They have decided along with the independents, to bury themselves deeper in the pile of crap of their own making.
Yesterdays date will for a long time come back to haunt them. Mark my words...
Get the Irish Mail tomorrow if you don't believe me. You mightn't like the paper but its contents for the nation will be an eye opener!

Biggins

Sleepy wrote: »

They were standing in an operating theatre at the time according to the TD in question.

Exactly, one that they weren't allowed to use due to the lack of funds!

BlitzKrieg

did the government give any reasoning for voting the way thet did?

While my heart is with you in this difficult time, I'd like to hear if the government has an explanation for simply saying no.

Sleepy

I'm no expert but I'd happily wager that 90% of the costs of an operation are payroll. Hospital Consultants are on obscenely more money in this country than their European counterparts and I personally believe Harney's inference that these closures are tactics by HSE pen-pushers to protect their already excessive budgets.

The problems with our Health Service are nothing to do with budget. They're to do with gross inefficiencies, over-paid staff, god-awful management and the main government parties so afraid of it's unions that they leave an independent as Minister for Health...

is_that_so

I am also of the view that throwing more money at the HSE is not the answer to this nor any of its myriad root problems. Much as I sympathise with anyone affected by the Crumlin Hospital issue, next week regrettably it will be another problem, in another area, that needs money. As others have commented the answers to these funds shortfalls lie within the HSE itself and the deluded hope that someone is capable enough and prepared to take the right action.

In terms of the vote it is no worse than the botched, attempted abolition of medical cards last October. A government expects all its members to vote for a measure, however wrong or unfair it appears to everyone outside, in the same way that opposition parties would expect their TDs to vote against.

solice

is_that_so wrote: »

In terms of the vote it is no worse than the botched, attempted abolition of medical cards last October. A government expects all its members to vote for a measure, however wrong or unfair it appears to everyone outside, in the same way that opposition parties would expect their TDs to vote against.

But in our elections we vote for the people to represent us, not the party. It would seem that the backbenchers are now representing the party and not the people....I understand that there are issues that they have to tow the party line but ethics and morals must play a part in this too!

Biggins

solice wrote: »

But in our elections we vote for the people to represent us, not the party. It would seem that the backbenchers are now representing the party and not the people....I understand that there are issues that they have to tow the party line but ethics and morals must play a part in this too!

Exactly, there has been other issues where TD's were allowed to vote with their heart and conscience, not just with their party.
Yet last night they decided NOT to do that but instead voted politically, not morally correct for the sake of our children.

That is to their shame and disgrace.

is_that_so

solice wrote: »

But in our elections we vote for the people to represent us, not the party. It would seem that the backbenchers are now representing the party and not the people....I understand that there are issues that they have to tow the party line but ethics and morals must play a part in this too!

Indeed we do and if that party gets enough TDs they get to pick a government. They also use the party whip to keep dissenting voices under control. It is fairly rare for any one to go against the whip. Even across the water Labour have lost very few votes, despite their large majority. Government policy is government policy and it needs something big like the over 70s medical card fiasco to get people to stir and ask questions about ethics and morals. The more masterful politicians can play both sides.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

To try and place all the blame on just surgeons wages is a miserable attempt to sideline the rest of the other areas when/where costs/funds are involved.

To suggest that the money is there for the asking and the only obstacle is the wilful desire by the Government to obstruct operations for children is also not giving the entire picture, no?

The country is broke. Surgeons are not. I'm not placing all the blame on them at all, but you won't hear me playing violins for them either. The health system is a mess, and one of the many factors is that a hell of a lot of money is thrown at surgeons.

whippet

I am a taxpayer and I for one am glad that the government didn't simply vote to throw more money in to a blackhole of a system that rewards incompetance.

The HSE and individual hospitals have so many inefficiences it is bordering on fraud. We can't give these bureaucrats a blank cheque, they have to justify their costs.

I will re-iterate, the mangment choose to spend over €60m on taxis and chose to close the much needed facility for the sake of €9m ....

As for the OP's post using a photo of a sick child is in my opinion very bad taste ... you are attacking the wrong people ...

Union policy dictates that if there are two wards side by side, one is understaffed by two nurses and the other is overstaffed by two, the two spare nurses can't move over. The hospital will have to either call in two nurses on overtime or agency nurses .... thus almost doubling the cost of covering these two positions.

This is where the public's focus should lie and don't be listening to the like of FG and Enda Kenny who actually accused Mary Harney of attacking the Nurses over this ordeal. And the OP was there at the invitation of Dr. Reilly who is also a FG TD .. so the OP's description of the mornings events will obviously be biased.

Biggins

whippet wrote: »

...And the OP was there at the invitation of Dr. Reilly who is also a FG TD .. so the OP's description of the mornings events will obviously be biased.

There are a number of issues that I disagree with but the above mentioned is one I will concentrate on right now.

I was there on his invite as was many also related to the subject matter. Thats said...

What was discussed - is on public record.
Who was there is (and wasn't) - on public record and witnessed by ALL there.
The way the voting went - is on public record.

O' and by the way 2 other things...
1. Next time you read something look and read more carefully- I stated 8 PM - not the morning time!
2. I am not a FG supporter (- nor was A LOT of the others there too).
If one bothers to read many of my other earlier posts, one will note this clearly!
...but don't let that come between your one sided view either.

Back to your earlier points...

glad that the government didn't simply vote to throw more money in to a blackhole of a system that rewards incompetance.

Crumlin Hospital has met and EXCEEDED ALL that has been asked of it by the HSE for the last three years (this is on record and was also stated in the Dail).
Yet for all the requirements that they fulfilled - they still had their funds cuts when the record of attending figures SHOWS that the numbers attending the hospital are increasing (the numbers were read out in the Dail to show this also).

The HSE and individual hospitals have so many inefficiencies

I agree the HSE itself has many inefficiencies. This was reiterated many times in the last two nights of debate and some of the exact places were pointed out. They were vastly shown to be more so than the actual hospital! Imagine that.

As for the OP's post using a photo of a sick child is in my opinion very bad taste ... you are attacking the wrong people

Explanation for the photo is above - a picture explains clear more than a thousand words, as to the conditions of those effected.
I put a picture to a face and a condition - it a human being, not an object, not an animal. Its a suffering human that is DIRECTLY effected by the actions of those in the Dail last night. There is no argument about that. Only those that might feel guilty would be ashamed to see the faces of victims of pain and suffering.

Attacking the wrong people? Who does the public attack ...the HSE? And where do they get their money from?
Guess what - the government - yes, those in the Dail! Now there's a surprise!

whippet

comments like this

"The useless stone cold faced lump that is Mary Harney, who by the way was in hiding for the previous debate before 8.30 and only dared show her face when a vote was called for, joined her comrades in crime in helping to inflict further pain and suffering to our nations children."

isn't a comment on public record it is your opinion of what happened and using emotional language to spin a particular point of view.

I never said you were a FG supporter but your were there at the invitation of a FG TD obviously as you have a shared interest and opinion of the issue to hand, therefore I would very much expect your description of events to be along the same lines as the FG party.

Have you voiced the same anger towards the managment of the hospitals who chose to spend over €60m on taxis rather than €9m for the childrens hospital .. or is a personal attack on Minister Harney's phyiscal appearance just easier and more headline grabbing?

My view is my view, of course it is onesided (one can only be on one side).

There are many reasons for the closure of certain services, but obviously you have only highlighted one.

Biggins

Harney absence was witnessed by ALL there and if you bother to turn up at the protest march on Saturday - not to support the cause but just to speak to ALL that was in the Dail (and the viewing gallery) I will personally introduce you to those people and the TD's whom will back what has been previous stated.

Nothing was added to or taken away from the account of what occurred last night.
I am very aware that to do so would only weaken my own case - so only what happened, who was there and when, is stated.

I look forward to introducing you on Saturday to witnesses and TD's alike to prove this.