Mark yesterdays date...

whippet

Biggins wrote: »

.

Nothing was added to or taken away from the account of what occured last night.
I am very aware that to do so would only weaken my own case - so only what happened, who was there and when, is stated.

.

I'm sorry but your obvious personal slur on Mary Harney's physical appearance has weakened your case in my view.

I won't be at any protest whatsoever on saturday you won't need to explain anything to me. I am more than capable of looking in to this issues myself and forming my own opinion.

The fact that you are accusing of FF and other government TD of more or less killing children is low, tabloidesque and in the tone that is more for gutter journalism than people looking to be taken serious.

Biggins

whippet wrote: »

...I won't be at any protest whatsoever on saturday you won't need to explain anything to me. I am more than capable of looking in to this issues myself and forming my own opinion.

Gald to hear it. Heres hoping you can distinguish between fact and fiction.
You have a hard time reading alone text mentioning between day and night.

whippet wrote: »

...The fact that you are accusing of FF and other government TD of more or less killing children is low, tabloidesque and in the tone that is more for gutter journalism than people looking to be taken serious.

Maybe no more tabloidesque than twisting what's stated above and now saying I am claiming they are "killing" children (Do you mind pointing out EXACTLY by me where that is stated - for the record?).

silverharp

Biggins wrote: »

What I have written IS my opinion - as well as fact!

my bad, it looked like a cut and paste article

Biggins

silverharp wrote: »

my bad, it looked like a cut and paste article

No. the only pasting with what I have written - is that the above will be pasted into tomorrows papers.
...and NO, I am NOT a journalist. I have been contacted by the media for permission to print the above.
I am just a parent with a child (who has been in the paper all week and on the front of it as well on on inserted protest posters, I, myself have been on TV and radio) with scoliosis seeing our young children suffering more so than they should be.

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe no more tabloidesque than twisting what's stated above and now saying I am claiming they are "killing" children

What he said was that you 'more or less' accused the Government of killing children.

In the interests of accuracy what you actually said was that that they inflicted further pain and suffering on our nations children, that they voted 'to kick sick children' and deliberately 'by their cruel actions inflict pain and suffering more on our children'.

You may not have said they killed children, but not sure too many would accept that they actually voted to kick sick children, or to deliberately inflict further pain. They voted a certain way because, presumably, the country is broke. It is a shocking state of affairs, and in a broader sense they may bear responsibility for that situation, and it will result in terrible cutbacks such as on childrens services. But I'm not sure the suggestion that they did it winking and nudging, as if they get some perverse thrill out of illness and misfortune, really can stand up.

eoinbn

I think this isn't less about the €9.5m(1%) that it would save and more about sending a message to the hospital that it's not a sacred cow that will get whatever funding it requires.

Biggins

Deleted User wrote: »

...I'm not sure the suggestion that they did it winking and nudging, as if they get some perverse thrill out of illness and misfortune, really can stand up.

Sadly, the amount of back slapping, grins and smiles, handshakes etc that went on while the voting (second round - using the old method - "Ta" and "Nil" Dail internal gates) said different. Its was disgusting for all to see above alone, in the public gallery.

conchubhar1

Deleted User wrote: »

The pic of the child is a pretty low shot.

It's from the same line of political debate that saw SPUC and Youth Defence putting opictures of an aborted foetus on their posters years ago.

reality is a **** isnt it :mad:

jmayo

whippet wrote: »

I'm sorry but your obvious personal slur on Mary Harney's physical appearance has weakened your case in my view.

I won't be at any protest whatsoever on saturday you won't need to explain anything to me. I am more than capable of looking in to this issues myself and forming my own opinion.

The fact that you are accusing of FF and other government TD of more or less killing children is low, tabloidesque and in the tone that is more for gutter journalism than people looking to be taken serious.

Maybe if you had a child that was waiting for an operation that in other countries, that a few years ago were supposedly not as rich as our own country, would be more readily available then you might not be so sanctimonious towards others who find this a very emotive issue.

Perhaps if you were sleeping on the floor beside your sick child who thanks to the crock that is our health system is sent home once again, then you might be a little tabloidesque in your own manner.
May I ask do you have children ?

You appear to have gone out of your way to defend harney (who in fact is overweight) and to most people in this country a complete and utter waste of space with no party nor mandate from the people.
In case it has escaped your very objective view of the matter, she is handsomely paid as our minister of health.
That role used to mean you were responsible for the public hospital system and the public health budget.
Of course she managed to create the bureaucratic hole that is the HSE to alleviate herself of any responsibility in this area.
To quote Harry S Truman trhe buck stops here, but in good old Ireland the buck just disappears into some black hole and the patients suffer.

If you and the other ff/pd apologists want to save money in health sevice perhaps you might look at the staff of HSE HQ or even the staff at the disposal of our minister of health.

And no, that does not mean that I condone the salary levels of the consultants or surgeons, nevermind the bloated admin structure now mismanaging the whole system.

Agent Smith

this is not the country collins fought for, this is not the country collins died for.


Dont give out about them. Get them out and KEEP THEM OUT.

Joey the lips

Biggins i have no problem with the language you use or feel when describing your anger towards the goverment I believe that those that do are one of two types of person

1. Supporters of the govt

2. Someone with their heads in the clouds,

We have long gone past happy sentiments when it comes to dealing with the cutbacks in health care and education and the bull and tripe that cutbacks are necessary does not wash,

paddyland

I am not surprised at members of the cabinet voting together against this funding. I am rather surprised though, that not one, not ONE Fianna Fáil backbencher had the balls to vote with his conscience rather than with the party whip. Why bother having these votes at all if it is predetermined that they will all vote with the party line?

I am sure they were not backslapping each other in glee at the suffering of sick children. I am sure sick children never crossed their mind. They were backslapping each other in glee at the winning of a political vote. That's all this was to them, another political football, kicked to touch. Sick children mean nothing.

FF, the Bertie Party, are not a party of the people at all, never were. They are a party of their own, theirselves alone. That's all they ever were, a sick, debased, corrupted, masonic institution, that stands for the interests of the basest element of society, i.e. anyone that can be BOUGHT.

Morals and human decency? What's your price?

paddyland

Deleted User wrote: »

The pic of the child is a pretty low shot.

It's from the same line of political debate that saw SPUC and Youth Defence putting opictures of an aborted foetus on their posters years ago.

And can I just say, there is no argument in the world that will stand up for cutting funding to keep the bare minimum of children's healthcare open, so that children like this do not have to be banished out of the country like lepers we would rather not have to see or worry about.

Biggins is facing having his child DEPORTED. That's what it boils down to. Could you not even stoop to acknowledge how horrific this situation is for parents like them? I can't understand people who come in and make cheap shots, as if it were a pub football discussion. Jesus Christ.

Dannyboy83

Nothing to add to the debate, just a personal point.

When I was a child I had 2 very serious operations, covered by health insurance I believe. As a result of those operations, I am healthy & I contribute a nice bit of tax money to this government.
If I hadn't had those operations, I would be a burden on society, or perhaps I wouldn't even be here.

This was in the 80s when our country was "the basket case of Europe".

I cannot understand this decision.
Something has gone very wrong indeed.

Joey the lips

Hi Biggins imo the prime time program tonight vindicated your opinion again well done!

Sage'sMama

Start telling them if this continues you'll vote no to Lisbon 2

the lomax

Joey the lips wrote: »

Hi Biggins imo the prime time program tonight vindicated your opinion again well done!

Surely the failure of Crumlin Childrens Hospital to contribute to the program raises a few question marks? The gov was pointing out 7 mil of easy savings the hospital could make and questioning why they werent making them and Crumlin refused to make any meaningful reply. Why?

paddyland

Biggins, have a think about that last point, about Lisbon. It's nothing to do with Lisbon, and neither issue should really be hung on the other. But the facts are, that FF, the Bertie Party, are not above doing ANYTHING to play dirty to win a trick on you or anyone else. They are entirely unprincipled.

I wonder if Lisbon can be used to tie these gangsters' hands on this. You have to be careful not to lose public support. If you are seen to use Lisbon, there is a chance some support might turn against you. But on the other hand, you want to look after your child. That's your bottom line. You should not feel guilty about gambling with anything you can. These guys will play dirty, that's their legacy. You have to play dirty too.

Would using Lisbon as a bargaining chip be a dodgy call, with regard to public support?

paddyland

the lomax wrote: »

Surely the failure of Crumlin Childrens Hospital to contribute to the program raises a few question marks? The gov was pointing out 7 mil of easy savings the hospital could make and questioning why they werent making them and Crumlin refused to make any meaningful reply. Why?

If there are failings in the management of Crumlin Hospital, then it is still up to the government to bloody well govern. Whoever the hell is at fault for the cost of children's health in this country, closing children's wards and DEPORTING sick children is NOT the answer. Under ANY circumstances.

ejmaztec

Our wondrous government calls the shots and is ultimately responsible for any budgetary screw-ups in its remit. The HSE staff don't get their jobs simply by walking in off the street and parking their arses in front of a desk. They are all appointed by people who are supposed to know what they are doing, all the way to the top of the "pile".

Any FF supporters trying to pass the buck on to the hospitals are talking complete hogwash. but are too proud to admit it.

Joey the lips

the lomax wrote: »

Surely the failure of Crumlin Childrens Hospital to contribute to the program raises a few question marks? The gov was pointing out 7 mil of easy savings the hospital could make and questioning why they werent making them and Crumlin refused to make any meaningful reply. Why?

I got that but i have 2 aspects to that in my mind

1. Hospitals will never give a statement that is critical of the goverments actions. and

2. That 7 million is actually being investigated as the patient services women said

but i thought The FG Health minister sumed it up best when he said not enough money is going into the hospital and the hospitals shoul be paid for meeting there targets.

ArmaniJeanss

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

If the government found this particular €9M, then next week there would be another Biggins putting forward another extremely plausible case with more heartwrenching pictures, and talking about how its a disgrace that the government can't find €XM to fix the health of this particular set of individuals.

But we are broke and we can't print money anymore.

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

paddyland

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

If the government found this particular €9M, then next week there would be another Biggins putting forward another extremely plausible case with more heartwrenching pictures, and talking about how its a disgrace that the government can't find €XM to fix the health of this particular set of individuals.

But we are broke and we can't print money anymore.

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

Don't worry, you won't be the one that has to go into that hospital ward and tell those children to FO abroad out of our sight.

dresden8

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But we are broke and we can't print money anymore.

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

Unless you're a banker or developer of course, and then it's how many BILLIONS do you want, Sir?

whippet

dresden8 wrote: »

Unless you're a banker or developer of course, and then it's how many BILLIONS do you want, Sir?

that sums up the ill informed ignorant opinions plastered across the tabloids.

The government, NAMA etc won't be giving one penny to developers.

If you can't understand that the bank guarantee scheme, NAMA and the input of capital into our banking system was something that the government actually didn't have a lot of choice about .... if the irish financial system was to fail you'd have a lot more than a €9m short fall to be worried about. If you can't grasp this notion, you should really read a bit more about it.

I recall hearing Gilmore and Burton being quizzed recently as to what they would have done back in sept of '08 regarding the bank guarantee scheme and their only response was 'we would have looked at it closer and had an independent body look over the books of each of the banks ...'

By that stage the banks would have failed and we would be in a bigger mess ... but its far to easy to critise rather than come up with solutions.

As for bringing Lisbon in to this debate ... moronic really, but then when you have a pretty ill informed electorate that is what you will get.

I'm lost.

How has Lisbon crept into this thread? What is the relevance?

I thought it was low to post a pic of a child who needs treatment to make party political points. It would be a complete insult to that child to have people using his trgaic situation to make points about a referendum on Europe.

solice

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm lost.

How has Lisbon crept into this thread? What is the relevance?

I thought it was low to post a pic of a child who needs treatment to make party political points. It would be a complete insult to that child to have people using his trgaic situation to make points about a referendum on Europe.

Agree with your Lisbon comment, disagree with you on the use of the picture to further the cause of opening surgery theatres in Crumlin.

He is the face of the problem. He is the person that has to deal with this govt fiasco. He is the one that is going to have to grow up and make the best of his situation, the world is hard enough, harder still when your govt. turns its back on you. He is the reason we should all be outraged. He, a child, has to live with the consequences of the people of Ireland voting in the same old tired faces time and time again!

As long as he doesnt mind, along as his parents are ok with the picture being used, he should always be used as a reminder of how inept our leaders are!

solice

solice wrote: »

As long as he doesnt mind

Not sure he is in a position to mind or now. His pic is out there now. Even if my parents were on a campaign when I was young, I'm not sure I would want a picture like that across the media. But I appreciate that is a whole different issue to the thread, I've registered that I don't like it, I don't want the whole health system crisis to get lost in a debate on the merits of a picture to make a point.

JonathanAnon

Well for a start, I dont know how you sat in the dail listening to that rubbish. Watched it on the telly a couple of days ago, all laughing and joking. And I thought "what a bunch of fkn idiots", and that's the ones who bothered to show up. These people need to grow tf up.

I am probably unique in that I feel sorry for Mary Harney. Her hands are completely tied in that she cant reform the system, and this is because of HSE and old health board staff and their corresponding unions. Only if the unions came to the government and said, "ok, we realise the country is in crisis and our members are prepared to take whatever reasonable changes necessary i.e. flexibility, accountability for absenteeism, not downing tools everytime you are asked to do something that isnt exactly in your brief, pay pulled in line with the private sector (post boom), forced redundancy or moving position of staff who are not currently relevant or busy (old health board)."

But the unions are only interested in the needs of their members not the common public good, so that they get the best deal not the fairest deal. And as long as that is the situation, nothing will change as there are too many vested interests. It would be interesting to see how the health service would run if changes were allowed to be made, but there is no point in blaming Mary Harney for the intransigence of the staff preventing her from reforming the health service. It's ironic that it's so called public servants that are the cause of a crap public service but that's the way it's gonna be unless the government play serious hardball with the unions.

Citing the example of the kid serves no purpose. I dont like James Reilly, and I think if he was put in charge for the week, he would come up against the same problems as Minister Harney is. Everybody can say how bad something is, but nobody in the opposition is great at making suggestions as to what needs to be done.

whippet

that is it in a nut shell.

The HSE was to reform the whole system, but every single change introduces is met with unions threatening strike, work to rule etc ...

see how long it actually took to negotiate a new deal with the consultants.

The real villans of this story are the people who are the unions and the managment of the HSE who won't allow/make the necessary changes to ensure that the abundance of money ploughed in to the system is spent where it is needed.

There is money in the coffers with in the HSE, but due to the refusal of many interested parties within the organisation this money isn't being spent where it should. This €9m that is being kick around like a political football could easily have been found from their budgets should the will have been there.

Direct your anger to those who choose to spend €60m+ on taxis and not leave €9m for the children's hospital.

It is sickening that those who are charged with and employed by the state to run our hospitals are incapable of these effeciencies and choose to allow children to suffer, while wasting millions.

But as I will say again, blaming the government is an easier option, why wouldn't you protest outside the houses of senior civil servants who administrate the HSE budget, why not protest outside the houses of those who actually write the cheques that waste money from the budget?