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Sage'sMama

But surley then the govenment are to blame if they are the ones employing these people.If they are not up to the job they should be removed and the ones that can do this is the government

JonathanAnon

whippet wrote: »

Direct your anger to those who choose to spend €60m+ on taxis and not leave €9m for the children's hospital.

I heard on DriveTime one day that something 280 million was spent on agency nurses to cover absenteeism last year, as well as paying the nurses for being out. I mean where are the managers reprimanding people. Everybody would take the piss if they knew they could get away with it.

I find it very frustrating that new public servants (since there is little the government seems to be willing/able to do about existing deals) should be signed up with stronger conditions for the employer. There should be a general block of malleable admin staff, whose job it is is to go where the country needs them.

Like at the moment we need more people in Social Welfare and less in Revenue. They should be able to just say to certain staff "pack up your bag, we need you somewhere else". But what happens, existing staff are kept on and new staff are employed, and if you ask for people to move they all down tools on mass.

whippet

Sage'sMama wrote: »

But surley then the govenment are to blame if they are the ones employing these people.If they are not up to the job they should be removed and the ones that can do this is the government

My point is that they can't .. everytime they try to do something you have some bloke with a beard (why to all the big wigs in unions have beards) harping on about deals, rights, pay rises, downing tools, less hours more pay and walkouts.

Until the unions are dealt with very little will happen. The test will come later in the year when the government are due to deal with the expenditure side of it, how will they managed to break the union's strangle hold on the public sector.

jmayo

paddyland wrote: »

Biggins, have a think about that last point, about Lisbon. It's nothing to do with Lisbon, and neither issue should really be hung on the other. But the facts are, that FF, the Bertie Party, are not above doing ANYTHING to play dirty to win a trick on you or anyone else. They are entirely unprincipled.

I wonder if Lisbon can be used to tie these gangsters' hands on this. You have to be careful not to lose public support. If you are seen to use Lisbon, there is a chance some support might turn against you. But on the other hand, you want to look after your child. That's your bottom line. You should not feel guilty about gambling with anything you can. These guys will play dirty, that's their legacy. You have to play dirty too.

Would using Lisbon as a bargaining chip be a dodgy call, with regard to public support?

Coming up to last Lisbon vote, the farmers had to use it to push coughlan to actually get off her ar** and tell WTO/EU that Ireland would block the agreement as it was then formed.
The only way this f***ing waste of space idiots do anything is if you have them over a barrel.
I know they are not linked, but needs often must.

paddyland wrote: »

If there are failings in the management of Crumlin Hospital, then it is still up to the government to bloody well govern. Whoever the hell is at fault for the cost of children's health in this country, closing children's wards and DEPORTING sick children is NOT the answer. Under ANY circumstances.

We had a governmnet going around bleeting how rich we were and we have some of the worse care for CF sufferers and it took a young girl to go on the Late Late Show to shame them into promising once agin to deliver a unit.
The ethos of the HSE was allowed deliver by a government that rolled over time and again to vested interests and thus we have a health care system that is not there for the patient but there for the staff.

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

If the government found this particular €9M, then next week there would be another Biggins putting forward another extremely plausible case with more heartwrenching pictures, and talking about how its a disgrace that the government can't find €XM to fix the health of this particular set of individuals.

But we are broke and we can't print money anymore.

There has to be a cut-off point somewhere.

All hail ff, they are making the tough decisions hah :rolleyes:
Miraculous they find money for their own little perks and for golden handshakes for shamed inept ex government employees.
Oh of course it is in there contract and it is their right.

whippet wrote: »

that sums up the ill informed ignorant opinions plastered across the tabloids.

The government, NAMA etc won't be giving one penny to developers.

If you can't understand that the bank guarantee scheme, NAMA and the input of capital into our banking system was something that the government actually didn't have a lot of choice about .... if the irish financial system was to fail you'd have a lot more than a €9m short fall to be worried about. If you can't grasp this notion, you should really read a bit more about it.

I recall hearing Gilmore and Burton being quizzed recently as to what they would have done back in sept of '08 regarding the bank guarantee scheme and their only response was 'we would have looked at it closer and had an independent body look over the books of each of the banks ...'

By that stage the banks would have failed and we would be in a bigger mess ... but its far to easy to critise rather than come up with solutions.

As for bringing Lisbon in to this debate ... moronic really, but then when you have a pretty ill informed electorate that is what you will get.

They did had the choice about including the most toxic of the toxic, Anglo yet we have pumped 4 billion into a bank I would hazard not one person on this baord has ever banked with :rolleyes:

To a lot of voters it is you, who I assume from your excuses and tones are ff supporter, who are the ill informed electorate.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm lost.

How has Lisbon crept into this thread? What is the relevance?

I thought it was low to post a pic of a child who needs treatment to make party political points. It would be a complete insult to that child to have people using his trgaic situation to make points about a referendum on Europe.

Why is it moronic or irrelevant to bring Lisbon into it ?
If you want something done you have to use all means at your disposal to acheive it.
If your child is sick you will do anything to make damm sure they get better.
Personally I would do a lot more than campaign against the government on Lisbon, but posting rules dictate we don't go there.
The welfare of children and indeed the old are seen as easy targets.
They are the collateral damage, they can pay for the sins and screwups perpetrated by the ones who can easily swan off to some private hospital when they get sick.

BTW do you have children ?

whippet wrote: »

My point is that they can't .. everytime they try to do something you have some bloke with a beard (why to all the big wigs in unions have beards) harping on about deals, rights, pay rises, downing tools, less hours more pay and walkouts.

Until the unions are dealt with very little will happen. The test will come later in the year when the government are due to deal with the expenditure side of it, how will they managed to break the union's strangle hold on the public sector.

And who was bending over backwards for 1o years to accomodate the unions, bertie wasn't it ?
It is a bit rich now complaining about the unions when the main government party was the unions best friend for the last 12 odd years. :rolleyes:

Who agreed formation of HSE, agreeing to not fire single person thus ensuring that we had duplication of admin staff across the system.
Hell they even created more admin staff to oversee the integration.
Usually when you amalgamate organisations, you find duplication and remove it :rolleyes:

Anyway I have asked this a few times, what is the minister of health now responsible for ?
She palms off all responsibility on the HSE and we usualy find the reasons for cockups are systemic.
Funny how that word has grown more importance in ff/pd crap-speak :rolleyes:

whippet

jmayo wrote: »

.


They did had the choice about including the most toxic of the toxic, Anglo yet we have pumped 4 billion into a bank I would hazard not one person on this baord has ever banked with :rolleyes:

To a lot of voters it is you, who I assume from your excuses and tones are ff supporter, who are the ill informed electorate.

yes I am a FF voter .. what is wrong with that? over 30% of the electorate voted FF last time round, about one in three.

I don't agree with everything that FF have done, but I do know that the opposition would do a worse job judging by their soundbites over the last 18 months or so.

The decisions made on the banks were decisions that had to be made instantly, hind sight couldn't have played a factor at all .. some of the decisions were hailed as brilliant by a lot of other economies around europe. Obviously the fraudulent transactions were not apparant at the time and couldn't have been factored in to a decision that had to be made within hours .. but I am sure you don't want to account for those facts when on a good rant.

jmayo wrote: »

Why is it moronic or irrelevant to bring Lisbon into it ?
If you want something done you have to use all means at your disposal to acheive it.
If your child is sick you will do anything to make damm sure they get better.
Personally I would do a lot more than campaign against the government on Lisbon, but posting rules dictate we don't go there.
The welfare of children and indeed the old are seen as easy targets.
They are the collateral damage, they can pay for the sins and screwups perpetrated by the ones who can easily swan off to some private hospital when they get sick.

BTW do you have children ?

That paragraph sums up my whole problem with the nature of this thread. Full of emotive, tabloidesque claptrap.

Running the risk of loosing the importance of the relationship between Ireland and EU and all the good it will bring based on a totally different argument is stupid.

Secondly .. I will say it again, the people who are putting the children at risk (as you put it) are the people who are signing the cheques and actually spending the money in the wrong places .... channel your anger towards them.. it would be more productive.

And I do have a child, a very young child .. that is irrelevant, the right to good health and welfare of every citizen should be equal .. young, old, rich, poor .....

But when it comes to people being accountable for millions of taxpayers money I really don't want emotions being played out, you can't run an economy on heart strings.

jmayo wrote: »

And who was bending over backwards for 1o years to accomodate the unions, bertie wasn't it ?
It is a bit rich now complaining about the unions when the main government party was the unions best friend for the last 12 odd years. :rolleyes:

Who agreed formation of HSE, agreeing to not fire single person thus ensuring that we had duplication of admin staff across the system.
Hell they even created more admin staff to oversee the integration.
Usually when you amalgamate organisations, you find duplication and remove it :rolleyes:

Anyway I have asked this a few times, what is the minister of health now responsible for ?
She palms off all responsibility on the HSE and we usualy find the reasons for cockups are systemic.
Funny how that word has grown more importance in ff/pd crap-speak :rolleyes:

As a FF supporter I am and was not a Bertie supporter and did not support the monsters that were created like Benchmarking etc .. and as I say again come the budget later in the year when this government will have had time to develop it's strategy for dealing with the monstrosity that is the public service I will have my faith in FF either crushed or restored.

solice

You say there should be no tabloidesque claptrap and that we should stick to the facts. I completly agree.

whippet wrote: »

I don't agree with everything that FF have done, but I do know that the opposition would do a worse job judging by their soundbites over the last 18 months or so.

Back that statement up!

I hazard a guess that the opposition never suggested that people should go and commit suicide. Hope that is not too tabloidesque for you!

whippet wrote: »

yes I am a FF voter .. what is wrong with that? over 30% of the electorate voted FF last time round, about one in three.

I have never voted for FF, so I suppose I owe you my thanks, people like you voting for people like them. Giving them a mandate to do what they did, forcing the children of Ireland to seek medical help abroad. Its like the Chernobyl children coming here for medical treatment...only...its us that are turning our backs on our own.

Thank you and the 30% for that!

whippet

solice .. a couple of very quick points:

Gilmore, Rabbit and Burton were looking for even more reductions in stamp duty a few years ago, slated the government for not doing it .... hindsight would show that such a labour proposal would have even further inflated an over inflated property market creating an even bigger mess than we are in.

Richard Bruton has offered nothing what so ever to suggest that he or FG could have done anything differently or better since sept last year regarding the banking crisis ... every time they are pressed on the issue they fudge the question by talking about the past and how they would (with the advantage of hind sight) have dealt wiht the issues

The government has invested billions in to the healtcare system, the civil servants running it are the ones wasting the money ... why are you not looking for their heads to roll ...... totally missing the point.

solice

whippet wrote: »

solice .. a couple of very quick points:

Gilmore, Rabbit and Burton were looking for even more reductions in stamp duty a few years ago, slated the government for not doing it .... hindsight would show that such a labour proposal would have even further inflated an over inflated property market creating an even bigger mess than we are in.

Richard Bruton has offered nothing what so ever to suggest that he or FG could have done anything differently or better since sept last year regarding the banking crisis ... every time they are pressed on the issue they fudge the question by talking about the past and how they would (with the advantage of hind sight) have dealt wiht the issues

A couple of points of my own. If you go to post number 300, 318, 334 and 340 on this thread you will see that I have shown that going back to at least 2004, all the opposition parties, including Sinn Fein have raised concerns about our economy. It is all on record and in the Dail. Backbenchers and front bench spokesmen for FG and Labour (including Burton and Bruton) stated that we were over reliant on specific industries. Hind sight wasnt necessary in 2004, foresight was! The opposition had it!

The oppositon were aware, the 30% that you spoke of earlier chose to ignore them and laughed when Bertie said that all the begrudgers should commit suicide.

whippet wrote:

The government has invested billions in to the healtcare system, the civil servants running it are the ones wasting the money ... why are you not looking for their heads to roll ...... totally missing the point.

So what you are saying is, the head of the HSE, appointed by and answerable to the govt is incapable of doing his job...so the govt is incapable of doing their job....they havent gotten rid of him!

jmayo

jmayo wrote: »

The welfare of children and indeed the old are seen as easy targets.
They are the collateral damage, they can pay for the sins and screwups perpetrated by the ones who can easily swan off to some private hospital when they get sick.

BTW do you have children ?

No, hence I can look at the issue dispassionately, and not get hysterical or overwrought, which I presume you will agree is the best way of looking at any issue.

I think I referred to the SPUC/Youth Defence trick of using pics of aborted children to make a point. And yes, it was a fact, these were the bodies of children whose lives were terminated before birth, and yes I believe consent was given to their use by the mothers who had gone through the procedure. But I didn't like it, even though my wife and I have never had to deal with that trauma. As I said above, if more funding for the child means less for the father of 5 with a brain tumour, can I post a pic of him and ask why are people deliberately kicking him when he is sick etc. etc.?

jmayo

whippet wrote: »

yes I am a FF voter .. what is wrong with that? over 30% of the electorate voted FF last time round, about one in three.

I would never have guessed who you supported :rolleyes:
As you said the electorate are uninformed
Look in the mirror...

whippet wrote: »

I don't agree with everything that FF have done, but I do know that the opposition would do a worse job judging by their soundbites over the last 18 months or so.

How do you know ?
If you know that what other marvels of information can you impart.
Can you tell me who will win the Derby ?

whippet wrote: »

The decisions made on the banks were decisions that had to be made instantly, hind sight couldn't have played a factor at all .. some of the decisions were hailed as brilliant by a lot of other economies around europe. Obviously the fraudulent transactions were not apparant at the time and couldn't have been factored in to a decision that had to be made within hours .. but I am sure you don't want to account for those facts when on a good rant.

So the fact that lenihan ignored advise (other banks, dept of finance, central bank) to leave Anglo out of guarantee doesn't ring any alarm bells ?
Sure why would any of the dodgy transactions be known, the poor lad had a habit of not reading all the reports he was given :rolleyes:
BTW there were enough concerns to have raised alarm bells but ah sure a lot of the lads banked with them....

whippet wrote: »

That paragraph sums up my whole problem with the nature of this thread. Full of emotive, tabloidesque claptrap.

As opposed to the claptrap you come out with to protect your party and to condone their actions in wasting billions and the end result being a substandard healthcare system and everything else.

whippet wrote: »

Running the risk of loosing the importance of the relationship between Ireland and EU and all the good it will bring based on a totally different argument is stupid.

If that is what it takes for the government to listen then I can see the argument for doing it.
If you are told that your child will have to wait another 6 months for needed surgery, then you could care less about a relationship with the EU or anyone else. And yes it is emotion.
If you are not emotive about your kids then, well I pity them.

whippet wrote: »

Secondly .. I will say it again, the people who are putting the children at risk (as you put it) are the people who are signing the cheques and actually spending the money in the wrong places .... channel your anger towards them.. it would be more productive.

And I do have a child, a very young child .. that is irrelevant, the right to good health and welfare of every citizen should be equal .. young, old, rich, poor .....

But when it comes to people being accountable for millions of taxpayers money I really don't want emotions being played out, you can't run an economy on heart strings.

You see the problem is nonone is accountable be it within hospital, HSE, dpet of health or government. :mad:

And I will say it again the buck stops on the desk of the minister and the government. The sooner clowns who try and shift the blame elsewhere cop on to that fact, the sooner the entire public system of governance improves.
Responsibility is never taken, it is always someone elses fault and there are systemic failures.
Who the fu** is running the system and who is responsible ?
Public sector, including ministers need to be held accountable for their mismanagement.
But it suits the minister to balme the HSE, the HSE management to blame the unions and the unions to blame the management and the government.
In the end who suffers ?

whippet wrote: »

As a FF supporter I am and was not a Bertie supporter and did not support the monsters that were created like Benchmarking etc .. and as I say again come the budget later in the year when this government will have had time to develop it's strategy for dealing with the monstrosity that is the public service I will have my faith in FF either crushed or restored.

[/QUOTE]

It marvellous how many ff supporters were not bertie supports :rolleyes:
It makes me wonder how he was ever leader ?
I'll bet you were also the ones who saw the very logical reasons for having the ff logo hidden on election posters.

Time to develop a strategy on the public sector ?
What the fu** have they being doing for the last 2 years, nevermind the 10 before that ?
You do know they have been in government i.e. the ones nominally in charge, supposedly
BTW they also helped bloat the monstrosity that is the public sector.

whippet wrote: »

solice .. a couple of very quick points:

Gilmore, Rabbit and Burton were looking for even more reductions in stamp duty a few years ago, slated the government for not doing it .... hindsight would show that such a labour proposal would have even further inflated an over inflated property market creating an even bigger mess than we are in.

Richard Bruton has offered nothing what so ever to suggest that he or FG could have done anything differently or better since sept last year regarding the banking crisis ... every time they are pressed on the issue they fudge the question by talking about the past and how they would (with the advantage of hind sight) have dealt wiht the issues

The government has invested billions in to the healtcare system, the civil servants running it are the ones wasting the money ... why are you not looking for their heads to roll ...... totally missing the point.

Ah so ff saved us from being in a bigger mess :rolleyes:
Ah jeeze we should be so thankful :rolleyes:
So the civil servnst running it are resposnible to who ?
Who the fu** is supposed to be running the whole show, abviously it has fuc** all to do with your life saving government ?
Why do we pay the bunch of f**kers so much.

Sorry for the lanuage but IMHO they don't deserve respect, I give that to those that earn it.

Deleted User wrote: »

No, hence I can look at the issue dispassionately, and not get hysterical or overwrought, which I presume you will agree is the best way of looking at any issue.

I think I referred to the SPUC/Youth Defence trick of using pics of aborted children to make a point. And yes, it was a fact, these were the bodies of children whose lives were terminated before birth, and yes I believe consent was given to their use by the mothers who had gone through the procedure. But I didn't like it, even though my wife and I have never had to deal with that trauma. As I said above, if more funding for the child means less for the father of 5 with a brain tumour, can I post a pic of him and ask why are people deliberately kicking him when he is sick etc. etc.?

I don't think the OP or anyone else ever said divert funds from some other sick people.
Most people who have children, look at sick kids in hospital and thank their lucky stars it isn't theirs, but a lot of parents are also concerned that the facilities are not there should their children ever need them.
Thus we would like to see proper healthcare.

Similarly for those who have had parents and elderly relatives suffer the irish health care system. Some of those spouting about how the money isn't there are the ones who have absolutely no experience of the system and probably due to circumstances of birth never will.

dresden8

whippet wrote: »

that sums up the ill informed ignorant opinions plastered across the tabloids.

The government, NAMA etc won't be giving one penny to developers. .

If you think developers are going to become poor and destitute as a result of owing hundreds of millions of Euro to the banks and therefore us, you are spectacularly naive and obviously haven't been paying attention to how things work in this country.

But, time will tell.

whippet wrote: »

If you can't understand that the bank guarantee scheme, NAMA and the input of capital into our banking system was something that the government actually didn't have a lot of choice about ....

Well, that's the point really. The banks can't be let down, but there's always the option to tell children to eff off. Nice.

whippet wrote: »

As for bringing Lisbon in to this debate ... moronic really, but then when you have a pretty ill informed electorate that is what you will get.

I don't believe I did. Link please?

paddyland

Deleted User wrote: »

No, hence I can look at the issue dispassionately, and not get hysterical or overwrought, which I presume you will agree is the best way of looking at any issue.

I think I referred to the SPUC/Youth Defence trick of using pics of aborted children to make a point. And yes, it was a fact, these were the bodies of children whose lives were terminated before birth, and yes I believe consent was given to their use by the mothers who had gone through the procedure. But I didn't like it, even though my wife and I have never had to deal with that trauma. As I said above, if more funding for the child means less for the father of 5 with a brain tumour, can I post a pic of him and ask why are people deliberately kicking him when he is sick etc. etc.?

Biggins faces his child being DEPORTED from this state.

Biggins faces packing his bags, and either commuting backwards and forwards out of this country every week, or else leaving altogether and setting up a new life in a different country where he can be near his child.

And YOU come on here and accuse him of being hysterical and overwrought?

Have you any idea what you sound like?

Jesus Christ, it's unreal...

paddyland

whippet wrote: »

solice .. a couple of very quick points:

Gilmore, Rabbit and Burton were looking for even more reductions in stamp duty a few years ago, slated the government for not doing it .... hindsight would show that such a labour proposal would have even further inflated an over inflated property market creating an even bigger mess than we are in.

Richard Bruton has offered nothing what so ever to suggest that he or FG could have done anything differently or better since sept last year regarding the banking crisis ... every time they are pressed on the issue they fudge the question by talking about the past and how they would (with the advantage of hind sight) have dealt wiht the issues

The government has invested billions in to the healtcare system, the civil servants running it are the ones wasting the money ... why are you not looking for their heads to roll ...... totally missing the point.

Would you kindly not twist this thread into another "FF are the best we have" thread. I have no illusions about the abilities of the opposition parties, but I know that the present government are absolutely shameful for the way they let their friends and cronies pillage and rape this country for years, and now expect the weakest, sickest children in the country to pay for it by being DEPORTED, where they won't cost us as much money any more.

Sick, sick, sick and disgusting. Do not try to say the opposition would be no better. FF, the Bertie Party have had ten years or more to sort out this country. The result? DEPORTING sick children. Words fail me. How you can defend this sour obnoxion of a political entity is beyond me. It is unbelieveable. They need to be gone out of this state forever, and then lets see what we can cobble together with what's left. It probably won't be wonderful, but it'll have to be better than this festering rot.

ArmaniJeanss

paddyland wrote: »

Biggins faces his child being DEPORTED from this state.

paddyland wrote: »

being DEPORTED, where they won't cost us as much money any more.

DEPORTING sick children.

Why is the word deported always in capitals in your posts, and are you sure you are using the correct word?
I've a feeling that you may be using the wrong word to be honest, as this does not count as deportation in any sense of that word.

Biggins and yourself have some reasonable points but the overemotional and hysterical language actually harms your case rather than helping it.

paddyland

I understand what you are saying. It is hard not to be overemotional.

I have no party affiliation at all. I stand for honesty and decency, and whoever offers that. FF the Bertie Party, are dishonest and self serving to the core. Maybe it would be acceptable to be self serving and deceitful, if at the same time, the country were being run on some kind of vaguely equitable level, and we were all at least getting by.

But FF have torn the heart out of not just the country, but the Irish people, the Irish psyche, everything good we have ever known and associated ourselves with. They have prostituted everything this country has of any value, in order to fill the pig trough to wallow in. They have destroyed me personally, they have destroyed some of my friends and relations. Not just this year, but going back years and years. You should hear the stories about what went on a generation or more ago. They are institutionally flawed. Generations of FF supporters are bred into an inherently corrupted and masonistic culture. There is nothing remotely Christian about anything they stand for or their collective behaviour over the years, despite any redeeming features occasional individuals may have had. They have created an obscene kind of culture where everything has a price but nothing has any value.

I am all for higher taxes. I am all for spending cuts. I am all for welfare cuts. That last will personally affect me. I am all for whatever can be done to get this country out of a hole. A FF created hole. But it has to be in the interests of it's people. Not despite it's people. I cannot believe anybody in this country can stand 'dispassionately' by and see sick children turfed out of this country because they cost too much to care for. In whose interest is that??? That is grotesque. Unbelieveable. Sorry if the word 'deport' offends. It is meant to. It may be the wrong term, taken literally, but is there a non-offensive way of kicking our sick children out of their hospital beds? A child near me also faces 'deportation' to a UK hospital this summer. What will it take to make FF wake up to what is really important in this life? Did God really put us on this Earth to banish sick children for cost effectiveness reasons? There is nothing anyone can say to me to make me believe this is not sick and twisted.

The opposition may well be no better. They may even be exactly the same, given the same opportunities as FF. But they haven't been in government in almost a generation. The Bertie Party have. FF should be spit roasted for what they have done to ordinary people, and for their complete dishonesty and hypocrisy. For what they have done to politics. I don't care what 'hard decisions' they feel compelled to make now. They are totally discredited. Anyone who posts to defend them on any other thread is merely annoying. But on this thread, on this matter, it is obscene. Sick.

I am sorry for hijacking Biggins' thread. He is far more eloquent than me at putting the case. All I can do is be a voice of support for someone in such desperate, desperate circumstances.

Hermy

I keep reading in this thread about how the country is broke and that sick children will just have to do without.
In the meantime the government appear to be able to find endless billions to bail out the banks.
I'm obviously missing something here.
Someone please explain to me what the fnck is going on!

fly_agaric

whippet wrote: »

The government, NAMA etc won't be giving one penny to developers.

You mean they won't be getting it from them.

If they're smart enough & know the top turds in our little cess -pool of a country I'm sure some of them will be first to rise from the ashes once paye eejits and losers like sick kids and pensioners have picked up the tab.

johnnyskeleton

Joey the lips wrote: »

Biggins i have no problem with the language you use or feel when describing your anger towards the goverment I believe that those that do are one of two types of person

1. Supporters of the govt

2. Someone with their heads in the clouds,

Or 3. Someone who looks at the entirety of government finances when considering increasing expenditure and not merely at a narrowly defined issue.

There are hundreds of worthy causes that cost very little compared to the benefit - 12m for cervical cancer vaccines, overseas aid, garda overtime etc. I would very much like to live in a low tax country with high standards of free health care, education, justice etc, but the fact is that Ireland is not like that. FF are rightly to blame, but that doesn't mean that, looked at from a non party political point of view, FF were wrong to vote against this expenditure. The country has no money. In fact, it is hemorrhaging borrowed money and it will be a tough job to pay it all back. This €9m seems small now, but it's €9m extra to be borrowed if it is passed. Same goes for every quango or minor expense that is paid for by the State. If the IMF are called in to fix our country, there will be much deeper cuts into Health & Education etc.

The government's fault is its failure to make serious cuts in expenditure. If FG want to seriously argue for increased expenditure in areas such as this, they will also need to show where they are going to make the cuts - not just the €9m cuts for this one narrow issue, but the €18-35bn (who knows what the actual figure will be) which looks likely to be our budget deficit this year.

Joey the lips

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Or 3. Someone who looks at the entirety of government finances when considering increasing expenditure and not merely at a narrowly defined issue.

There are hundreds of worthy causes that cost very little compared to the benefit - 12m for cervical cancer vaccines, overseas aid, garda overtime etc. I would very much like to live in a low tax country with high standards of free health care, education, justice etc, but the fact is that Ireland is not like that. FF are rightly to blame, but that doesn't mean that, looked at from a non party political point of view, FF were wrong to vote against this expenditure. The country has no money. In fact, it is hemorrhaging borrowed money and it will be a tough job to pay it all back. This €9m seems small now, but it's €9m extra to be borrowed if it is passed. Same goes for every quango or minor expense that is paid for by the State. If the IMF are called in to fix our country, there will be much deeper cuts into Health & Education etc.

The government's fault is its failure to make serious cuts in expenditure. If FG want to seriously argue for increased expenditure in areas such as this, they will also need to show where they are going to make the cuts - not just the €9m cuts for this one narrow issue, but the €18-35bn (who knows what the actual figure will be) which looks likely to be our budget deficit this year.

I am always saying boards lacks hindsight and your proving it! Cut the spend now and you will pay the price in increased healthcare later! Think of it like painting a fence you might not have the money to paint it now but if you dont the cost of the new fence later will be greater!

Somehow you have to wonder why the govt dont have this brain! Yeah that spike on o connell street seems to have been worth the money now!

Oh and by the way there is no option 3 unless your considering a general election!

newsjunkie

I just want to shed a little bit of light on the condition of scoliosis.

I have scoliosis and had spinal surgery 30 years ago in Cappagh Hospital when I was a young teenager. It took a long time for me to get into the national Scoliosis Care system (wasted "check-ups" in regional hospital by general orthopaedic surgeons from the age of two who told my mum that I'd grow out of it). I was 10 when I was eventually got to the scoliosis clinic in Cappagh and started a bracing programme and I was 12 when I was considered for surgery. Unfortunately, my curve had reached such an advanced state by the time I got into the system, there was very little that could be done except to try to hold the curve as it was. The surgery was successful from this point of view. Even though I was young, I could see that my case was taken seriously and I received excellent care at both the out-patient check-ups and during my lengthy stay in hospital. Appointments were never cancelled and the surgery was carried out at the time considered best by my surgeon. There was a recognition that scoliosis if not managed will lead to very serious health issues and the earlier the intervention starts, the less complicated the surgery/treatment and the better the outcome. Apart from the physical deformity and the cosmetic problems this can cause, if scoliosis continues, the spine encroaches on organs such as the heart and lungs and causes serious medical problems. Because of the delays in treating me, I have less than 50% lung capacity and this does restrict me and poses a threat to my health.

I have been active on an international scoliosis bulletin board in recent years and it was rare for people in my age group to have such severe curves. I find it wholy depressing to see what is happening now in Ireland and how inferior treatment is compared to other comparable countries. I spoke to the mother of a 12 year old girl who was told last year that she was 20th on the waiting list for surgery - now she's 30th. Others told me that they didn't know how severe their children's curves are now because check-ups had been postponed.
I know that it is important that the HSE needs to work within their budget but scoliosis needs to receive the commitment from government, the HSE and the hospitals to ensure that our children receive the same kind of treatment that they could expect to get any other first world country. The Minister for Health and the HSE claim that all emergency scoliosis cases are being treated but I hope what I have said above illustrates that the severe undercapacity in treatment could result in many children being left with a much worse, possibly life threatening condition than is necessary for the rest of their lives.

On subject of the photo, I can only imagine that it was used by the parents as a last ditch effort to highlight their son's case and it shows their desperation. It's just a deformed spine that needs treatment urgently, I don't see what's distasteful about it.

paddyland

What a lesson to learn from somebody who has lived through this.

I would love Harney's answer to that last post.

In fact I wouldn't. Her word on anything is worthless. My God, what a horrendous situation to be responsible for.

Mary Hanafin on RTE last night, defending the indefensible, and smirking as usual as she did it. The smirk says it all...

paddyland

paddyland wrote: »

Biggins faces his child being DEPORTED from this state.

No he doesn't. The child is not being expelled from the State.

That's exactly the type of hysteria to which I was referring. If anything it merely weakens the argument.

paddyland wrote: »

Have you any idea what you sound like?

I would hope calm anyway, even if you and I don't agree.

I can do the hysteria too, after a series of strokes over about 5 years my father died in an Irish hospital. I'm not sure it would serve any purpose to link photos, to use emotional language etc.

newsjunkie

Conor, what is wrong with a photo illustrating what scoliosis looks like in a young boy? It is a little understood condition and a photograph is the best way of explaining it.

newsjunkie

newsjunkie wrote: »

Conor, what is wrong with a photo illustrating what scoliosis looks like in a young boy? It is a little understood condition and a photograph is the best way of explaining it.

This is not a thread explaining the medical conditions, symptoms, diagnosis, prognosis etc. of Scoliosis.

newsjunkie

It is impossible to discuss the politics around scoliosis treatment without explaining the nature of the condition. It's not as if it is well understood as cancer or asthma would be, for example.
And you comparing the photo to that of an aborted foetus earlier in the thread was absolutely disgraceful.

max 73

i've become a dad for the first time back in september 08 and should my little lad need major medcial care then i would move heaven and earth to get him that help.......biggins is not being overdramatic, you have to fight for what you need and the fact that we have to fight for something which should be readily available in what is (was) considered one of the jewels in the crown of the modern developed world is unacceptable - no one anywhere takes responsibility for anything they do especially govt, instead of giving all of the bail-out money to the banks, withhold €1billion and recruit a business team (actual experts who know what they're on about not buddies....) on a short-term basis and develop a strategy to right the rolling health ship and clean out the HSE from top to bottom....and to train in a suitable candidate to run it with the correct mindset!!!

the govt have to stop hiding behind legislation, unions, etc etc and take the "hard decisions"on this issue

best of luck biggins

newsjunkie

newsjunkie wrote: »

And you comparing the photo to that of an aborted foetus earlier in the thread was absolutely disgraceful.

As must be extremely obvious, I was not comparing the photos at all. To suggest so is to completely misrepresent my point. I hope this was as a result of you missing that point, rather than trying to twist what I said.

I was comparing, not the photos themselves, but the use of photos in an emotional debate to deliver a message or make a point. As I said, I could colour my stance with photos of my father lying in hospital before he died, do you really think that would add to the debate and would you be happy for me to do so?

newsjunkie

I think it is acceptable to use a photo of a little boy to explain to the general public the nature of scoliosis. Most of us with the condition would run a mile rather than show anyone our backs and my point is that the family clearly decided that the photo would explain their argument better than a thousand words would. I don't see any harm in it and commend his parents for doing all in their power to have their little boy seen to.

I didn't misunderstand your point, I just did not see how you could bring in such an extreme analogy. You're looking at a young boy with a medical condition who needs to be treated urgently. Putting a face to a condition can make a difference. For example, Susie Long's openness about her late diagnosis raised awareness of the gaps in colorectal screening and Orla Tinsley is a tireless representative of CF sufferers.

I sympathise with you on the death of your father. I have lost both of my parents and experienced the rough end of A&E on too many occasions with my mum in particular in recent years. If photos would help the people who carry influence to understand the reality, they serve a vital purpose in my opionion.