IMPORTANT INFO RE SWINE FLU

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

And can you point out where the information provided by the government is untrue?

How can they say a totally untested vaccine is safe?

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

That's just not true.
The vaccine is currently being tested in a number of ways.

emmm, like what?

Captain Furball

King Mob wrote: »

I believe people should listen to trained medical professionals and not random people on the internet.


I didn't say it's definitely not dangerous.
However seeing as it's based heavily on the season flu vaccine it probably isn't going to be dangerous.

Maybe someone can finally provide some scientific evidence that the vaccine is dangerous.

Which Ones?The experts on heart surgery, vaccine makers or just our local GP?Would you say your in a position to say if it's dangerous or not?

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

How can they say a totally untested vaccine is safe?

And where do they say this?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

emmm, like what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_vaccine#Testing

King Mob

Captain Furball wrote: »

Which Ones?The experts on heart surgery, vaccine makers or just our local GP?

Your GP or anyone who works with virology.
Or the ones that have

Captain Furball wrote: »

Would you say your in a position to say if it's dangerous or not?

Never say I was.
However given the fact that there is no evidence or reasoning that it is dangerous and that it is based on the seasonal vaccine which is very safe, I'd put my money on it being safe.

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

And where do they say this?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic_vaccine#Testing

They say the vaccine is safe on their website here:

http://www.dohc.ie/

They're buying this untested vaccine for us as we speak.

The US has already begun inoculating children as 'guinea pigs' outlined in the short video report below:


Scientists Refuse Swine Flu Vaccine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm3WrUDfzGg

BTW, even the wiki link you just provided states:
"Pressure for early delivery of vaccine has led some companies to take initial steps toward production of the vaccine before testing has been completed."

Please look closer into Baxter et al

Captain Furball

King Mob wrote: »

Your GP or anyone who works with virology.
Or the ones that have


Never say I was.
However given the fact that there is no evidence or reasoning that it is dangerous and that it is based on the seasonal vaccine which is very safe, I'd put my money on it being safe.

Ok fair enough.

So right now do you think people should take the swine flu vaccine?
If no, why not and if yes, why?

IrelandSpirit

Captain, me thinks we might be wasting our time here with King Mob!

King Mob

Captain Furball wrote: »

Ok fair enough.

So right now do you think people should take the swine flu vaccine?
If no, why not and if yes, why?

I am not in a position to give medical advice.

They should talk to their doctors and read up on the actual scientific papers.

bonkey

Captain Furball wrote: »

So you believe humans should not take this vaccine right now as It is not yet fully tested?

Yellow card.

Let me remind everyone that there will be a summary banning for anyone who offers medical advice, even in the form of answering a question as to what others should or should not do.

This is treading a very, very close line to being either grossly irresponsible, or just plain trolling.

bonkey

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

BTW, even the wiki link you just provided states:
"Pressure for early delivery of vaccine has led some companies to take initial steps toward production of the vaccine before testing has been completed."

It does indeed.

What it doesn't say is that the vaccine will be delivered before testing is satisfactorily completed.

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

They say the vaccine is safe on their website here:

http://www.dohc.ie/

I'm honestly can't see that anywhere.
Where about is it?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

They're buying this untested vaccine for us as we speak.

The US has already begun inoculating children as 'guinea pigs' outlined in the short video report below:

Yes their buying it in preparedness for the upcoming flu season.
And as I've said it's based on the seasonal vaccine which is very safe.

Those children are actually part of the test and are being monitored.

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Scientists Refuse Swine Flu Vaccine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm3WrUDfzGg

SO then these guys have the scientific evidence that the vaccine is dangerous?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

BTW, even the wiki link you just provided states:
"Pressure for early delivery of vaccine has led some companies to take initial steps toward production of the vaccine before testing has been completed."

Please look closer into Baxter et al

Again this is because they need to be ready for the flu season.

IrelandSpirit

bonkey wrote: »

It does indeed.

What it doesn't say is that the vaccine will be delivered before testing is satisfactorily completed.

It doesn't need to, if the production of the vaccine is underway before testing has been satisfactorily completed, the vaccine will therefore be delivered before testing is satisfactorily completed.

The vaccination program has already begun on the population of the US

Captain Furball

If what your saying is true IrelandSpirit how can they be so careless?
Do they not have to follow procedure?

King Mob

Captain Furball wrote: »

If what your saying is true IrelandSpirit how can they be so careless?
Do they not have to follow procedure?

They are.
Simple as.

bonkey

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

It doesn't need to, if the production of the vaccine is underway before testing has been satisfactorily completed, the vaccine will therefore be delivered before testing is satisfactorily completed.

Thats a logical non-sequitor.

It assumes that production times are shorter than testing times, and that delivery will begin as soon as the first batch is ready (as opposed to when delivery quantities are met and testing is completed).

The maths are simple.

If production didn't begin early enough, the deliveries couldn't be made in sufficient quantity within the required timeframe.

From the simplest risk/reward aspects of game theory, the strategy makes sense. If the producers wait until after testing is completed, they lose because they can't meet orders in time. If they start production, they stand the chance of winning big. In an absolute worst case, they have to swallow the loss of an aborted production run.

They run the risk of aborting production in order to stand the chance of a massive windfall. Its economics at its simplest. Its astounding that we've seen people suggest that Big Pharma engineered the flu just to make the profits from vaccination, yet other then balk at the idea that Big Pharma have the audacity to risk losing money in order to earn billions.

Not only that, but its not like there's much new about this vaccine. Its an established production technique...the only realy difference is the strain of flu being used in it. So the risk of loss isn't even that real...and there's probably agreements we haven't heard about which says they'll have any such losses covered if testing fails anyway.

The vaccination program has already begun on the population of the US

Has it?

The latest I've seen is that a program has been approved, not that its been started.

Where has it started?

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

I'm honestly can't see that anywhere.
Where about is it?

Yes their buying it in preparedness for the upcoming flu season.
And as I've said it's based on the seasonal vaccine which is very safe.

Those children are actually part of the test and are being monitored.



SO then these guys have the scientific evidence that the vaccine is dangerous?

Again this is because they need to be ready for the flu season.

I'm honestly can't see that anywhere.
Where about is it?

Listen to their podcast, it is clear and they are buying this vaccine...

Yes their buying it in preparedness for the upcoming flu season.
And as I've said it's based on the seasonal vaccine which is very safe.

Please research Autism, for a start.....

Those children are actually part of the test and are being monitored.


Those children are therefore being monitored as unsuspecting guinea pigs in a trial vaccine test. I personally that highly irresponsible, to say the least!


SO then these guys have the scientific evidence that the vaccine is dangerous?

Again, please do some more research and arrive at your own opinion...

Again this is because they need to be ready for the flu season.

We can only hope you're right there!

bonkey

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Please research Autism, for a start.....

That's a convenient way of saying "I don't have any actual facts, but think you shoudl provide a counter argument", isn't it?

It has already been pointed out (on this thread, if memory serves) that there is no established link between any vaccination and autism.

If you're trying to suggest otherwise, I'd ask you to provide links to credible medical studies which show otherwise. Otherwise, what you're doing is little more than a cross between handwaving and scaremongering.

Alternately...just research <insert condition of choice here>, if you don't believe that posting on the boards.ie Conspiracy Theories forum isn't bad for you.

uprising

King Mob wrote: »

I'm more pro science and against misinformation like uprising is spreading than purely pro vaccine.
But all the lifes vaccination has saved would tend to put it in my good books.

A few weeks older?




Yes I understand the concept fairly well.
If you look back on this thread you'll see I've described it several times.

But I think I'll wait for uprising.

You never answered my question, I asked you to tell me how you think it work's, then I'll tell you how it really works, youv'e made no sense in any discussion so far, your posts are full of "yes it can,no it cant, no it can, yes it cant",
I know how vaccines are supposed to work, I also know that they don't always do what they say on the tin, unlike ronseal.
So you tell me how you believe them to work to begin.
Then I'll get back to you and show you professionals dissmissing whatever you put up.

IrelandSpirit

Bonkey, what that sentence means to me is... for example, if I begin production of let's say a new kind of scone, a new recipe, but I'd need to have it tasted first to see it's alright before i can deliver it to you. If i've already begun producing these scones before the recipe is tasted, in other words i have thousands of these scones already produced, they obviously haven't been tasted. Does that makes sense? or have i totally lost the plot! lol

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Listen to their podcast, it is clear and they are buying this vaccine...

I can't listen to the podcast at the minute I'm afraid.
What exactly do they say?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Please research Autism, for a start.....

I have.
There never has been any scientific link between vaccines and autism.
The prevailing myth is that childhood vaccines cause autism not the flu vaccines.
In fact there is quite a lot of evidence against the notion that vaccines cause autism.

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Those children are therefore being monitored as unsuspecting guinea pigs in a trial vaccine test. I personally that highly irresponsible, to say the least!

So the evil doctors stole these children away in the night?
the parents hadn't a say in it?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Again, please do some more research and arrive at your own opinion...

I have done a lot of research.
I as far as I can see these news report doesn't equal scientific evidence.
Why don't these doctors supply the evidence that the vaccine is dangerous?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

We can only hope you're right there!

That is the reason they are doing it.
Why else would they?

King Mob

uprising wrote: »

You never answered my question, I asked you to tell me how you think it work's, then I'll tell you how it really works, youv'e made no sense in any discussion so far, your posts are full of "yes it can,no it cant, no it can, yes it cant",
I know how vaccines are supposed to work, I also know that they don't always do what they say on the tin, unlike ronseal.
So you tell me how you believe them to work to begin.
Then I'll get back to you and show you professionals dissmissing whatever you put up.

The explanation for how vaccines work is two sentences long dude.
In all that bitching about me you could have shut me right up.

And I have explained how vaccines work plenty of times in this and other threads.

So explain how vaccines are "supposed" to work and the super secret evil way you think they work.

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Bonkey, what that sentence means to me is... for example, if I begin production of let's say a new kind of scone, a new recipe, but I'd need to have it tasted first to see it's alright before i can deliver it to you. If i've already begun producing these scones before the recipe is tasted, in other words i have thousands of these scones already produced, they obviously haven't been tasted. Does that makes sense? or have i totally lost the plot! lol

This analogy is only valid if there was some kind of lethal scone shortage on the horizon.

IrelandSpirit

Captain Furball wrote: »

If what your saying is true IrelandSpirit how can they be so careless?
Do they not have to follow procedure?

It's my understanding from following a link on a previous post that this is the WHO's procedure in the case of a pandemic like this H1N1 flu. I'll try to find that for ya in a bit, i'm in a crossfire...

uprising

King Mob wrote: »

The explanation for how vaccines work is two sentences long dude.
In all that bitching about me you could have shut me right up.

And I have explained how vaccines work plenty of times in this and other threads.

So explain how vaccines are "supposed" to work and the super secret evil way you think they work.

You tell me , then I'll correct you, i have seen nothing but nonsense from your posts so far, and I've had a warning for giving medical advice already, so you tell me how vaccines work.
Also add any information you may have to "DNA and how our DNA structures can/may be altered"

PLEASE POINT OUT TO ME WHERE ON THIS AND OTHER THREADS YOU EXPLAINED HOW VACCINES WORK

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

This analogy is only valid if there was some kind of lethal scone shortage on the horizon.

Good one! lol

Seriously though, if the production of this vaccine was already underway before testing, then it obviously hasn't been tested before it was produced. I don't know if that makes sense to anybody else, but it's pretty obvios to me.

King Mob

uprising wrote: »

You tell me , then I'll correct you, i have seen nothing but nonsense from your posts so far, and I've had a warning for giving medical advice already, so you tell me how vaccines work.
Also add any information you may have to "DNA and how our DNA structures can/may be altered"

Ok you're not getting my point at all.

I believe you don't actually know how vaccines work.
Your response is not to quickly describe how vaccines work but rather "no, you describe it first."

So why not just describe how the evil doctors say vaccines work and then describe how they are wrong.

uprising wrote: »

PLEASE POINT OUT TO ME WHERE ON THIS AND OTHER THREADS YOU EXPLAINED HOW VACCINES WORK

Mmh they were posts you responded to you know right?

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Good one! lol

Seriously though, if the production of this vaccine was already underway before testing, then it obviously hasn't been tested before it was produced. I don't know if that makes sense to anybody else, but it's pretty obvios to me.

And the vaccine is based heavily on the seasonal flu which is safe.
The only thing they are really testing to my knowledge is for random or weird reactions.

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

And the vaccine is based heavily on the seasonal flu which is safe.
The only thing they are really testing to my knowledge is for random or weird reactions.

My point exactly. To my knowledge they are and will be testing for these random and weird reaction on us. Sorry, but i do value my health!

uprising

The flu vaccine has been available in America sine 1945. The purpose of this vaccine is to help your body build immunity against harmful organisms that make you sick. Your body, however, is equipped to do this naturally.

The mucous membranes, the vehicle by which most disease-causing organisms enter the body, has a defense system of its own called the IgA immune system. Disease-causing organisms kick the IgA immune system into action to fight off the invaders. When a vaccine is injected into the body, the IgA immune system is skipped over and your body’s immune system is jolted into action.

Your body’s immune system being prodded into action this way is unnatural. Do you realize what is in a vaccine? It could contain either killed or live viruses, thimerasol, antifreeze, formaldehyde, carbolic acid, Neomycin and/or streptomycin.

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

My point exactly. To my knowledge they are and will be testing for these random and weird reaction on us. Sorry, but i do value my health!

And they are doing in safe controlled conditions, not on the general population like the scaremongers are claiming.
No one is forcing you to take the vaccine before it's tested (or at all for that matter.)
The only reason they are making the vaccine before the testing is finish is do that will be ready for the flu season.

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

The only reason they are making the vaccine before the testing is finish is do that will be ready for the flu season.

They are waiting for the Lisbon Treaty to be signed so that they can force it out across Europe. :eek:

King Mob

uprising wrote: »

The flu vaccine has been available in America sine 1945. The purpose of this vaccine is to help your body build immunity against harmful organisms that make you sick. Your body, however, is equipped to do this naturally.

And the vaccines use the exact same mechanism your body uses when it's normal fighting a virus.
The vaccine however doesn't have the symptoms of the virus.

uprising wrote: »

The mucous membranes, the vehicle by which most disease-causing organisms enter the body, has a defense system of its own called the IgA immune system. Disease-causing organisms kick the IgA immune system into action to fight off the invaders. When a vaccine is injected into the body, the IgA immune system is skipped over and your body’s immune system is jolted into action.

And what happens when the virus gets past the IgA and infects the actual body?
Or did no one get sick before vaccines?

The vaccines react on the other parts of the immune system like IgM and IgG and produce the exact same antibodies that would be made by IgA in the mucous.
By getting the antibodies from a vaccine rather than virus, your immune system deals with a lot less antigens then it would form a virus.
Also the vaccines either cause none of the symptoms or weaker symptoms.
This means that the vaccine is just plain safer than get the disease, polio springs to mind. Similar to how chicken pox is relatively harmless in children but quite dangerous to adults.

uprising wrote: »

Your body’s immune system being prodded into action this way is unnatural.

Your immune system reacts in the exact same way as it would in the presence of the actual virus.
"Unnatural" is simply a word you're using because it sounds scary.
The flu virus is "natural" and has killed far far more than the "unnatural" vaccine.

uprising wrote: »

Do you realize what is in a vaccine?

I do, apparently you don't.

uprising wrote: »

It could contain either killed or live viruses,

Mmmh no ****.
That's how they work.
And you've just spend a paragraph explaining how live viruses "are natural."
Can you explain how either are dangerous?

uprising wrote: »

thimerasol,

There hasn't been thimerasol in vaccines in a while and it has never been shown to be in anyway dangerous at the doses in vaccines.
But it's got mercury in it so it must be scary.

uprising wrote: »

antifreeze,

That's completely untrue.

Some pro-disease anti-vaxers claim there is antifreeze in vaccines. This is false. Antifreeze is ethylene glycol. Vaccines use polyethylenes glycol. These are different substances, the latter of which is not toxic. More info can be found at Inside Vaccines.

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/03/13/common-anti-vaccination-myths-and-misconceptions/

uprising wrote: »

formaldehyde,

The chemical structure of the formaldehyde in vaccines is the same as that produced by our own bodies. It is used during the manufacturing process, but is diluted to remove it from the finished product, leaving only small or trace amounts. The total amount of formaldehyde in a finished product is far less than what is naturally found in the human body.

http://www.chop.edu/consumer/jsp/division/generic.jsp?id=75809

Hopefully these chemical formulas will make things clearer:

Formaldehyde in our bodies = H2CO (natural)
Formaldehyde in vaccines = H2CO (synthetic)
Formaldehyde in embalming fluid = H2CO+CH3OH+CH3CH2OH+solvents
Formaldehyde in plywood = H2CO+NH2CONH2+CH3OH+HCOOH+H2O

uprising wrote: »

carbolic acid, Neomycin and/or streptomycin.

And are these dangerous at the levels present in the vaccine?

You would probably know about they most dangerous chemical of all.
Dihydrogen Oxide.

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They are waiting for the Lisbon Treaty to be signed so that they can force it out across Europe. :eek:

Oh for god's sake.

That is just not true Rdth. Why do you think it is?

Or can we all just make **** up to make Lisbon and vaccines or whatever we want sound terrifying?

Run_to_da_hills

King Mob wrote: »

Oh for god's sake.

That is just not true Rdth. Why do you think it is?

Or can we all just make **** up to make Lisbon and vaccines or whatever we want sound terrifying?

To facilitate the task of forced vaccinations the EU will assign a special armed task force similar to that of National Guard and allocate holding camps. :eek:

King Mob

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To facilitate the task they will assign an armed euro task force similar to that of National Guard and allocate holding camps. :eek:

No you've got it all wrong.
They're building a clone army so they can fight the Chinese robot army.
The vaccine is to get DNA samples to find the best clones.

You do know what you're claiming is pure fantasy right?
Can you back it up at all?

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

And they are doing in safe controlled conditions, not on the general population like the scaremongers are claiming.
No one is forcing you to take the vaccine before it's tested (or at all for that matter.)
The only reason they are making the vaccine before the testing is finish is do that will be ready for the flu season.

Hmmm, it does not seem rational to have the involved chat we just had about this vaccine being tested on the general population, specifically children (in the US returning to school) only for you to then say that these tests are not conducted on the general population. And moreover, conducted in safe controlled conditions? You don't make any sense there at all!

However, please understand i'm neither scaremongering nor falling prey to scaremongering, if you feel you've come to an informed decision, go ahead and have all the shots you like. I do not think it is safe to inject substances into my body which have not (at least) been tested and deemed safe. This seems entirely rational to me.


True though, nobody's forcing me to take the vaccine before it's tested or at all, and i personally will not be. If it becomes mandatory like in Greece and Norway, well... anybody waving a needle around here's gonna be in for a nasty shock!

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Hmmm, it does not seem rational to have the involved chat we just had about this vaccine being tested on the general population, specifically children (in the US returning to school) only for you to then say that these tests are not conducted on the general population. And moreover, conducted in safe controlled conditions? You don't make any sense there at all!

Yea, the children are participating in trials, the general population is everyone not just controlled groups of children.
The vaccine is not commercially available yet.
You were implying that they were going to make it commercially available before testing and monitor the entire population as the testing

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

Yea, the children are participating in trials, the general population is everyone not just controlled groups of children.
The vaccine is not commercially available yet.
You were implying that they were going to make it commercially available before testing and monitor the entire population as the testing

Well, to my mind children are part of the general population as opposed to paid volunteers in a series of controlled clinical tests.

By definition the vaccine is commercially available because governments are buying it.

Put the two together, and yes, i can see the same scenario as happened with thalidomide which was also released without adequate tests to assess safety.

IrelandSpirit

Correction, a similar scenario - i'm not implying we're gonna see the same symptoms as thalidomide, (who know what we'll see) i'm only using that as an example of what happens when Big Pharma 'jumps the gun', as it were...

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Well, to my mind children are part of the general population as opposed to paid volunteers in a series of controlled clinical tests.

By definition the vaccine is commercially available because governments are buying it.

That's not what commercially available means dude.

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Put the two together, and yes, i can see the same scenario as happened with thalidomide which was also released without adequate tests to assess safety.

The FDA actually never approved thalidomide.

The impact in the United States was minimized when the pharmacologist Frances Oldham Kelsey refused Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval for an application from Richardson Merrell to market thalidomide, saying more study was needed.

And there's been a bit of change in regulation, testing and safety standards in the last thirty years.

Torakx

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

They are waiting for the Lisbon Treaty to be signed so that they can force it out across Europe. :eek:

damn talk about putting 2 and 2 together!
very good point indeed.makes alot of sense.
they can already force it in the USA thats been proven you can get most of them to back anything.

england i thought i heard them considering forced vaccination.
and im guessing asia will be a pushover wether they die from the flu or the vaccine.

someone i was talking to also had another theory about the vaccine.
what if the last swine flu back in 1940 ish? was made to scare.
and the real deal is coming soon.
so how to get rid of all your opposition? scare them into not taking the vaciine and maybe they will mostly go away with the swine flu.

myself i am staying away from any vacinnes ever! id rather sit indoors and wear a mask when i go out lol

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

That's not what commercially available means dude.


The FDA actually never approved thalidomide.


And there's been a bit of change in regulation, testing and safety standards in the last thirty years.

Oh, i thought commercially available means it's available to buy, as in 'commercially available'... what's it mean then?

In any case, whether or not the FDA actually approved thalidomide is largely irrelevant - many other regulating bodies did approve it and with catastrophic results. My point is that any regulating body testing on children in clinical trials is highly irregular, to say the least. There is a vast irreconcilable difference between using innocent children and informed (and paid) adult volunteers.

So yeah, there has indeed been a bit of change in regulation, testing and safety standards - there doesn't seem to be any if they're testing on members of the general public without full disclosure.

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Oh, i thought commercially available means it's available to buy, as in 'commercially available'... what's it mean then?

The US government buys F-22s from Lockheed. Are they "commercially available"?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

In any case, whether or not the FDA actually approved thalidomide is largely irrelevant - many other regulating bodies did approve it and with catastrophic results. My point is that any regulating body testing on children in clinical trials is highly irregular, to say the least. There is a vast irreconcilable difference between using innocent children and informed (and paid) adult volunteers.

But you see thalidomide was being used (not just sold) before testing.
There are now regulations and laws that prevent stuff like that from happening.

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

So yeah, there has indeed been a bit of change in regulation, testing and safety standards - there doesn't seem to be any if they're testing on members of the general public without full disclosure.

How do you know the people testing the vaccine are getting full disclosure exactly?
And it bares pointing out the sum of your (and mine) knowledge of these trails is the brief mention in these news reports?
So how can you conclude that they're not following guidelines?

Captain Furball

An internal French government document that outlines detailed plans and orders for the force vaccination of the French population using secure “vaccine” facilities and starting from September 28th has emerged.


http://www.sante-jeunesse-sports.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Circulaire_vaccination_090824.pdf

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

The US government buys F-22s from Lockheed. Are they "commercially available"?

But you see thalidomide was being used (not just sold) before testing.
There are now regulations and laws that prevent stuff like that from happening.


How do you know the people testing the vaccine are getting full disclosure exactly?
And it bares pointing out the sum of your (and mine) knowledge of these trails is the brief mention in these news reports?
So how can you conclude that they're not following guidelines?

Ok, the US government buys F-22s from Lockheed. Are they "commercially available"? Yes, because The US government buys F-22s from Lockheed. If they weren't "commercially available" Lockheed wouldn't sell F-22s. They'd keep them or give them away which rather defeats the purpose for commercially manufacturing them to sell in the first place.

How do I know the people testing the vaccine are getting full disclosure exactly? They are NOT getting full disclosure, that's my point, because if they were, or any one of us was, then the Health Board would have at the very least provided us with an information package stating that we are taking part in a clinical trial; exactly what that trial entails, the risks involved, etc, etc...

True, the sum of our knowledge of these trails is limited, but I can conclude that they're not following the normal guidelines expected in clinical trials precisely because none have appeared to be conducted - if you can find the results anywhere then please tell me where.

Thalidomide was being used before testing, yes, that's my point too, and as to regulations and laws that prevent stuff like that from happening, yes there are but are they being enforced in this alleged H1N1 epidemic? Apparently not or we'd have the results of the vaccine's trials readily available and this thread wouldn't have been started.

King Mob

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Ok, the US government buys F-22s from Lockheed. Are they "commercially available"? Yes, because The US government buys F-22s from Lockheed. If they weren't "commercially available" Lockheed wouldn't sell F-22s. They'd keep them or give them away which rather defeats the purpose for commercially manufacturing them to sell in the first place.

So can the public buy an F-22?

Commercially available means being available to the public.

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

How do I know the people testing the vaccine are getting full disclosure exactly? They are NOT getting full disclosure, that's my point, because if they were, or any one of us was, then the Health Board would have at the very least provided us with an information package stating that we are taking part in a clinical trial; exactly what that trial entails, the risks involved, etc, etc...

But the health board is it conducting the trails. I'm referring to the children you talked about in the earlier post who are taking part in trials.

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

True, the sum of our knowledge of these trails is limited, but I can conclude that they're not following the normal guidelines expected in clinical trials precisely because none have appeared to be conducted - if you can find the results anywhere then please tell me where.

The results aren't quite in yet. Your only knowledge of the trials are from that article but you conclude they are not following guidelines based on ...what exactly?
Are you familiar with the ins and outs of large medical trials?

IrelandSpirit wrote: »

Thalidomide was being used before testing, yes, that's my point too, and as to regulations and laws that prevent stuff like that from happening, yes there are but are they being enforced in this alleged H1N1 epidemic? Apparently not or we'd have the results of the vaccine's trials readily available and this thread wouldn't have been started.

No you're assuming they are not following the regulations.

If they weren't subject to the rules like you think, why are they bothering with trials at all?

IrelandSpirit

Torakx wrote: »

damn talk about putting 2 and 2 together!
very good point indeed.makes alot of sense.
they can already force it in the USA thats been proven you can get most of them to back anything.

england i thought i heard them considering forced vaccination.
and im guessing asia will be a pushover wether they die from the flu or the vaccine.

someone i was talking to also had another theory about the vaccine.
what if the last swine flu back in 1940 ish? was made to scare.
and the real deal is coming soon.
so how to get rid of all your opposition? scare them into not taking the vaciine and maybe they will mostly go away with the swine flu.

myself i am staying away from any vacinnes ever! id rather sit indoors and wear a mask when i go out lol

Yeah, that thought did cross my mind too, it would be a good way to get rid of 'the opposition'.

There's talk of this 1st wave being a beta test, and when the virus mutates/recombines into a more virulent and lethal strain, (or one is released) then the WHO can have more reason to force all members into the mandatory inoculation scenario - I think they're legally empowered to do this now too, but probably feel the resistance would be too great. With the death toll mounting then most people would be more likely to comply.

I don't personally subscribe to this being part of a depopulation agenda, not at this stage. It could be though, it could certainly be an efficient and expedient method to get rid of a lot of people but not to reduce the levels to the half billion on the Georgia Guidestones, say.

It's just too... too obvious!

No, i think this is simply about money at this stage. That viruses can be and have been engineered in labs is a well-known fact. That they would release something into the population and make a mint from vaccines and anti-virals? Certainly.

uprising

During the afternoon of the 29th August, one of our reporters went to visit a family living at Pattaya Green Villas on Soi Siam to investigate a story about suspected incompetence.


On arrival, the reporter met up with 54 year old Mr. Boonnak and his 6 year old daughter. He claimed that because of the recent outbreak of the H1N1 Swine Flu epidemic, the girl, who is a student at a local school, was given a vaccination without his consent. As a result, a few days later, the girl was coughing and sneezing and coming down with a fever. He panicked and took her immediately to Bangkok Hospital Pattaya, where he was shocked to learn from the doctor that she was infected with the H1N1 flu virus. As he could not afford to pay 3,000 baht for a remedy vaccine they returned home and subsequently both he and the rest of his family have come down with the virus. Mr. Boonnak stated that he wanted the school to take responsibility for their medical bills, but so far has not received any acknowledgement of his request.
http://www.pattayapeople.com/default.asp?Folder=16&IdArticle=18804

IrelandSpirit

King Mob wrote: »

So can the public buy an F-22?

Commercially available means being available to the public.

But the health board is it conducting the trails. I'm referring to the children you talked about in the earlier post who are taking part in trials.

The results aren't quite in yet. Your only knowledge of the trials are from that article but you conclude they are not following guidelines based on ...what exactly?
Are you familiar with the ins and outs of large medical trials?


No you're assuming they are not following the regulations.

If they weren't subject to the rules like you think, why are they bothering with trials at all?

As I stated earlier, I'm personally not going to allow anybody to inject me with substances especially, as you say, if the results are'nt quite in yet.

The reason the results arent in yet is because they will be doing the trials on the general population.

Conducting clinical trials trials on the general population, especially children is not, in my mind, following the correct procedure - you are of course free to think what you like. You are of course free to take part in this trial, let us know how you get on.