Moslems in Western Society

peakpilgrim

Hi

Is there a problem with Moslems adapting to Western Society and what can be done to assist Moslems to do so?

wes

Muslims aren't a singular group firstly. We are talking about many different groups.

We also see Muslims actually integrate better in the US, than parts of Europe. So another question that could be asked, is Europe doing enough to integrate Muslims, considering that Muslims integrate just fine in the US?

Mark Hamill

wes wrote: »

Muslims aren't a singular group firstly. We are talking about many different groups.

We also see Muslims actually integrate better in the US, than parts of Europe. So another question that could be asked, is Europe doing enough to integrate Muslims, considering that Muslims integrate just fine in the US?

Isn't intergrating something the Muslims themselves should do, as they are visitors? Europe should make sure to welcome them and make them feel wlecome and free to live as Muslims (as its supposed to do as a secular group of nations), but why would Europe be expected to change itself for Muslims when a Muslim nation would not be expected to change for any non-Mulsim visitors?

wes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Isn't intergrating something the Muslims themselves should do, as they are visitors? Europe should make sure to welcome them and make them feel wlecome and free to live as Muslims (as its supposed to do as a secular group of nations), but why would Europe be expected to change itself for Muslims when a Muslim nation would not be expected to change for any non-Mulsim visitors?

Maybe Europe isn't as welcoming as immigrants as the US is? I was just wondering why Muslims don't seem to have as many problems as the US? Perhaps the problem isn't soley with Muslims, but with Europe as well? For all the bluster of the American right wing, and the dodgy anti-terror laws, by all accounts Muslims do far better in the US.

What you fail to understand, is that integration is a 2 way street, for instance, if someone of Arab descent in France, make an effort to integrate, gets a good education etc, they are still half as likely to get a job, when compared with the majority population. This is hardly welcoming now is it? Shouldn't this person have the same chance of a job, as anyone from the majority community? I don't expect Europe to change or anything like that, but to give people who make the effort to integrate a fair go at things, just like everyone else, surely that isn't asking to much, to be treated like everyone else?

Also, again it should be noted that Muslims aren't a single population. One group may have trouble integrating, where as another group of Muslim may do just fine.

Mark Hamill

wes wrote: »

Maybe Europe isn't as welcoming as immigrants as the US is? I was just wondering why Muslims don't seem to have as many problems as the US? Perhaps the problem isn't soley with Muslims, but with Europe as well? For all the bluster of the American right wing, and the dodgy anti-terror laws, by all accounts Muslims do far better in the US.

Source?

wes wrote: »

What you fail to understand, is that integration is a 2 way street, for instance, if someone of Arab descent in France, make an effort to integrate, gets a good education etc, they are still half as likely to get a job, when compared with the majority population. This is hardly welcoming now is it?

Source?

peakpilgrim

wes wrote: »

Maybe Europe isn't as welcoming as immigrants as the US is? I was just wondering why Muslims don't seem to have as many problems as the US? Perhaps the problem isn't soley with Muslims, but with Europe as well? For all the bluster of the American right wing, and the dodgy anti-terror laws, by all accounts Muslims do far better in the US.

What you fail to understand, is that integration is a 2 way street, for instance, if someone of Arab descent in France, make an effort to integrate, gets a good education etc, they are still half as likely to get a job, when compared with the majority population. This is hardly welcoming now is it? Shouldn't this person have the same chance of a job, as anyone from the majority community? I don't expect Europe to change or anything like that, but to give people who make the effort to integrate a fair go at things, just like everyone else, surely that isn't asking to much, to be treated like everyone else?

Also, again it should be noted that Muslims aren't a single population. One group may have trouble integrating, where as another group of Muslim may do just fine.

Hi

Yes it is a two way street, most definitely, and I am not suggesting otherwise.

What worries me is that there have been some problems with integration in Holland, France ( as you mention ) and the U.K.

In the U.K. there are two problems that need to be addressed:

1. Some Moslems, born and bred in the U.K, in some northern cities feel totally isolated from society.

2. The growth in support for the B.N.P.

What is the best way to diffuse these two problems?

The Moslem population in Ireland is, currently, quite small; how do we avoid mistakes here, that have been made in other countries, for the next generation?

wes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Source?

From Al Jazeera English:
European Muslims feel 'isolated'

Muslims living in European countries feel far more isolated than those living in the United States, according to a survey on coexistence, with a lack of access to education and jobs reinforcing a sense of ostracism.

At the same time, Muslims in France, Britain and Germany feel far more loyalty to their country than they are perceived to feel, and express a strong willingness to integrate.

The findings by pollsters Gallup tend to suggest that a longer period of migration to the US and economic growth there has helped foster integration.

Click here for full article

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Source?

French Muslims face job discrimination

There you go, no more than a couple quick searches on Google.

wes

peakpilgrim wrote: »

The Moslem population in Ireland is, currently, quite small; how do we avoid mistakes here, that have been made in other countries, for the next generation?

Well, I don't know how to sort things in the rest of Europe, but look at how the US integrates there immigrants. There system seems to be superior to the one used in Europe. So, I would reckon for Ireland is to follow how the US does things, as both the immigrants and there kids do a lot better and everything works out for the better for all involved.

Mark Hamill

wes wrote: »

Well, I don't know how to sort things in the rest of Europe, but look at how the US integrates there immigrants. There system seems to be superior to the one used in Europe. So, I would reckon for Ireland is to follow how the US does things, as both the immigrants and there kids do a lot better and everything works out for the better for all involved.

Well from the first article you gave me above it says:

It found 38 per cent of Muslims in Germany, 35 per cent of those in the UK and 29 per cent of those in France were found to be "isolated" in their countries,

That figure stood at just 15 per cent in the US and 20 per cent in Canada.

Mogahed said: "This can be explained by the historical importance of immigration in the development of Canada and the United States as modern nations."

So it seems like America is doing it better because its been doing it longer and because they have, historically, relied on immigration more. So for Ireland to do better at integrating in the same way, it would need to develop a reliance on immigrants to function, thus completely changing its economy, which seems a bit mad.

Personnally, I think the best way for Muslims to be intergrated anywhere is to have all the schools mixed. No more Muslim schools, no more Christian schools, all the schools run by the state with religion either taught in the general sense or not at all (with kids attending private or extra curricular religious studies on their specific religion) to keep everyone happy. If all the children can get used to each other, then as adults they should be able get along equally too.

wes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Well from the first article you gave me above it says:


So it seems like America is doing it better because its been doing it longer and because they have, historically, relied on immigration more. So for Ireland to do better at integrating in the same way, it would need to develop a reliance on immigrants to function, thus completely changing its economy, which seems a bit mad.

Personnally, I think the best way for Muslims to be intergrated anywhere is to have all the schools mixed. No more Muslim schools, no more Christian schools, all the schools run by the state with religion either taught in the general sense or not at all (with kids attending private or extra curricular religious studies on their specific religion) to keep everyone happy. If all the children can get used to each other, then as adults they should be able get along equally too.

Why, don't Europeans look at the US and Canada to see how they integrated the populations? They clearly have a system that works, why not emulate the best aspects of it? It isn't just a attitude thing, they have honed there system so that it works really well.

I agree that state schools should be secular, but if people want to make there own Religous schools from there own money, then they should have that choice. I still reckon that the vast majority will send there kids to the normal schools either way.

Mark Hamill

wes wrote: »

Why, don't Europeans look at the US and Canada to see how they integrated the populations? They clearly have a system that works, why not emulate the best aspects of it? It isn't just a attitude thing, they have honed there system so that it works really well.

I thought I explained it in my last post. From your own link, America intergrates so well because of a history of needing immigrants. Europe doesn't really need immigrants in the same, so it doesn't feel the need to bend over backwards to make everyone feel equally welcome. To change Europe to the American way would require a large economic change, its unfeasable. What needs to happen is for people to stop building up walls around cultures, for racial groups to be open amongst each and for everyone to see that everyone is pretty much the same. I think schools would be a big help in this, in that if you've grown up learning and playing with different ethnic groups, you're not likely to suddenly develop a bias at adulthood.

wes wrote: »

I agree that state schools should be secular, but if people want to make there own Religous schools from there own money, then they should have that choice. I still reckon that the vast majority will send there kids to the normal schools either way.

I wouldn't support preventing any type of religious school from opening, but I think, in a society of predominantly secular schools, being put into a specialised school will just go to building up the adult distrust of the unknown that causes the lack of integration we see today. I think in the long, it will work against the kids more than help them.

wes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I thought I explained it in my last post. From your own link, America intergrates so well because of a history of needing immigrants. Europe doesn't really need immigrants in the same, so it doesn't feel the need to bend over backwards to make everyone feel equally welcome. To change Europe to the American way would require a large economic change, its unfeasable. What needs to happen is for people to stop building up walls around cultures, for racial groups to be open amongst each and for everyone to see that everyone is pretty much the same. I think schools would be a big help in this, in that if you've grown up learning and playing with different ethnic groups, you're not likely to suddenly develop a bias at adulthood.

Again, I am going to have to disagree. The US has some great methods of handling immigration and its seems to me that the European methods are a massive failure. I am not saying we adopt what they do wholesale, but I find it hard to believe we can't learn from there clearly superior experience on this subject.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I wouldn't support preventing any type of religious school from opening, but I think, in a society of predominantly secular schools, being put into a specialised school will just go to building up the adult distrust of the unknown that causes the lack of integration we see today. I think in the long, it will work against the kids more than help them.

Well, I honestly doubt most parents would send there kids to religious schools, and I wouldn't send my own child to one. They can learn about Islam in the mosque just fine.

philologos

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I wouldn't support preventing any type of religious school from opening, but I think, in a society of predominantly secular schools, being put into a specialised school will just go to building up the adult distrust of the unknown that causes the lack of integration we see today. I think in the long, it will work against the kids more than help them.

To be in keeping with our Constitution a choice of secular vs religious schools should be at the forefront. A balance for the free choice of parents is what is fair. Imposing an atheist viewpoint on a majority theist population isn't fair, and freedom of conscience is also codified in our constitution.

Article 42:1 wrote:

The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

I trust parents to make the choice which they feel is best for their children. If they feel that imparting their faith to another generation is what is best, that is their perogative.

Mark Hamill

Jakkass wrote: »

To be in keeping with our Constitution a choice of secular vs religious schools should be at the forefront. A balance for the free choice of parents is what is fair. Imposing an atheist viewpoint on a majority theist population isn't fair, and freedom of conscience is also codified in our constitution.

I never said anything about taking free choice from parents, just that the best thing to fully integrate their kids into a local community is to have them in a school with the local kids. Its not an atheist thing, if you want people of multiple faiths to have their choldren together in the same school, the easiest sollution is have religion as a seperate entity, either discussed in extracurricular classes or seperate institutions entirely (like mosques etc)

Jakkass wrote: »

I trust parents to make the choice which they feel is best for their children. If they feel that imparting their faith to another generation is what is best, that is their perogative.

I never said they shouldn't.

Hobbes

peakpilgrim wrote: »

The Moslem population in Ireland is, currently, quite small;

Muslims have been in Ireland for around 50 years. I haven't seen any problems. Have you?

Also your thread seems to be more directed at immigration then muslims in general.

I trust you have read the charter.

peakpilgrim

Hobbes wrote: »

Muslims have been in Ireland for around 50 years. I haven't seen any problems. Have you?

Also your thread seems to be more directed at immigration then muslims in general.

I trust you have read the charter.

Do you not think that this is an honest question and an important topic for discussion?

Do you not think that there have been problems with integration in Holland, France and the U.K. and should we not make every effort here, in Ireland, as the Islamic population increases and more Irish born Muslims grow up in our society, to avoid the mistakes that have been made in those countries?

If so: then the first thing to do, surely, is to discuss the topic in a calm and mature manner; is it not?

Hobbes

peakpilgrim wrote: »

Do you not think that this is an honest question and an important topic for discussion?

Read the charter.

Do you not think that there have been problems with integration in Holland, France and the U.K...

As I said you are equating Muslim with an Immigrant. Wrong forum.

Incidentally the spelling "Moslem" is not the correct usage and is normally used in a derogatory fashion.

peakpilgrim

Hobbes wrote: »

Read the charter.



As I said you are equating Muslim with an Immigrant. Wrong forum.

Incidentally the spelling "Moslem" is not the correct usage and is normally used in a derogatory fashion.

I apologise for my spelling of the word Muslim; I am not a Muslim myself and I didn't realise that it could be interpreted as an insult.

I have read the charter and I cannot see that there is anything that could be contrary to it in my question; which is a sincere one.

devereaux17

I don't think so, Ireland doesn't have any natural connections with any Muslim countries like France and the UK. France and the UK social problems with Muslims were created in unique circumstances, I think Irelands Muslim immigration(and immigration in general) mirrors Sweden or Norway rather than those 2 nations.

Apparently the reports of Muslims in Norway are great exaggerated by the media.

Sonic_exyouth

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Isn't intergrating something the Muslims themselves should do, as they are visitors? Europe should make sure to welcome them and make them feel wlecome and free to live as Muslims (as its supposed to do as a secular group of nations), but why would Europe be expected to change itself for Muslims when a Muslim nation would not be expected to change for any non-Mulsim visitors?

But Europe is constantly changing.
Why shouldn't it?

Look at ireland now, compared with 10, 20, 30 years ago.

Of course Europe will change, and if you don't like the direction it's changing in, you have a democratic voice to use to stop the trend.

Further, Muslims are not "visitors" to Europe, comprising as they do of 5% of the French population between 5-10% of the dutch, the majority of Bosnians, the majority of Albanians, over two Million Brits. etc.
They are every bit as European as any Catholic.

Mark Hamill

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

But Europe is constantly changing.
Why shouldn't it?

Look at ireland now, compared with 10, 20, 30 years ago.

Of course Europe will change, and if you don't like the direction it's changing in, you have a democratic voice to use to stop the trend.

I wasn't saying Europe shouldn't change, more why it should change specifically for Muslims as opposed to anyone else.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Further, Muslims are not "visitors" to Europe, comprising as they do of 5% of the French population between 5-10% of the dutch, the majority of Bosnians, the majority of Albanians, over two Million Brits. etc.
They are every bit as European as any Catholic.

For your own information muslims make up 38.8% of Albanians, 40% of bosnians and 7% of europeans overall.
Muslims are a minority in europe and, in western europe they are only a recent addition (fewer than three generations) so what sort of changes do you think europe should make to integrate them better

Sonic_exyouth

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I wasn't saying Europe shouldn't change, more why it should change specifically for Muslims as opposed to anyone else.


For your own information muslims make up 38.8% of Albanians, 40% of bosnians and 7% of europeans overall.
Muslims are a minority in europe and, in western europe they are only a recent addition (fewer than three generations) so what sort of changes do you think europe should make to integrate them better

Right, the idea that the "World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001" should be taken as a more reputable source that the CIA world factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/AL.html) shows a hilarious bias to your 'research', and while I shouldn't have said 'majority', even your own link says that Muslims constitute the single biggest religious group.

The idea that Muslims have only been in Albania and Bosnia, or indeed europe "for 3 generations" or fewer shows an ignorance, perhaps wilfull, or European history.
Look at this:

Its an english coin from the year 757, just 194 years after the Irish, through Colmcille and the Iona monestary began the mission for christianity in the British Isles, and it bears the Shahada - The Islamic testimony of faith.
Also, llok at this:

It's a map of the Ottoman Caliphate, at it's height. Indeed, til 1915, a reasonably large chunk of Europe was still under the figure-head control of the last remaining Muslim Caliph.

Islam has been a European for religon thusly for centuries.

Now,moving toward western Europe, nations like Germany, Holland and some scandanavians invited immigrants into their lands to complete the great reconstructive miracle in the wake of the second world war.
In every case, the majority of these immigrants were Muslim, and happy enough to endure whatever they did for the sake of a better life. Their grandchilden, in the wake of the greatest slaughter in europe since the second world war - the mass slaughter of Muslims in Yugoslavia, including the Srebrenica massacre where they were supposed to be protected by the Dutch - folowed by war after war on muslim nations and the blatent disregard for palestinian humanity, do not assume that they are not entitled to the same rights afforded others. If a nun can teach in a school in a habit, why not a Muslim woman in a Hijab. If a Jewish community can live by the halakah, why not a muslim community by the shariah. If a sikh can grow a long beard and wear religiously mandated clothing, why not a Muslim man. Churches, with spires containing bells are present in most every town, why not a purpose built Mosque with minarets.
Young muslims are demanding equal rights, the same rights afforded others, but rights their parents were afraid to ask for.
Allowing these equal rights to be afforded to all, including Muslims, are the 'changes do I think europe should make to integrate better'.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote: »

Well, I don't know how to sort things in the rest of Europe, but look at how the US integrates there immigrants. There system seems to be superior to the one used in Europe. So, I would reckon for Ireland is to follow how the US does things, as both the immigrants and there kids do a lot better and everything works out for the better for all involved.

Wes it's not so black and white. People in the US are also very religious. An evangelical christian can relate to a muslim better than a secular European. In fact when it comes to being creationist, anti evolution and dictating what people can and can't do I really don't see any difference between the hard core in either camp.

So sorry but integration is always going to be more difficult in Europe! Our secular culture is much further from Islam than US Christians are and if you're idea of imitating the US is to allow religion to dominate politics as it does there.... then no thanks. I don't plan on going back to 1960's Ireland with the only exception being Islam in place of the Catholic church.

We can learn from America though. You are more accepted there if you adopt American values and try to become a good citizen. Your ethnic group is less relevant as long as you're a good American citizen.

wes

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Wes it's not so black and white. People in the US are also very religious. An evangelical christian can relate to a muslim better than a secular European. In fact when it comes to being creationist, anti evolution and dictating what people can and can't do I really don't see any difference between the hard core in either camp.

Well, this would hardly apply to Canada? Where Muslims are also doing fine btw.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

So sorry but integration is always going to be more difficult in Europe! Our secular culture is much further from Islam than US Christians are and if you're idea of imitating the US is to allow religion to dominate politics as it does there.... then no thanks. I don't plan on going back to 1960's Ireland with the only exception being Islam in place of the Catholic church.

Except this isn't my idea. The US has a strict seperation of Church and State, and while people who live there are generally more Religous, this doesn't change the essentially character of there state, which is definetly secular.

Again, look at Canada, who have similar success in integration to the US, and they are not nearly as Religous.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

We can learn from America though. You are more accepted there if you adopt American values and try to become a good citizen. Your ethnic group is less relevant as long as you're a good American citizen.

Now the above is what I want to emulate. If I work hard, pay my taxes and obey the law of the land etc, then I expect to be treated like everyone else.

Mark Hamill

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Right, the idea that the "World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001" should be taken as a more reputable source that the CIA world factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/AL.html) shows a hilarious bias to your 'research', and while I shouldn't have said 'majority', even your own link says that Muslims constitute the single biggest religious group.

No bias, when looking for numbers I searched for Albania first and that was the first number I saw. The website was called religiousfreedom.lib and I thought nothing more of it, I only came to the CIA website later and didn't think of double checking my numbers (I should have, my apologies).

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

The idea that Muslims have only been in Albania and Bosnia, or indeed europe "for 3 generations" or fewer shows an ignorance, perhaps wilfull, or European history.

I said western europe, ie Ireland, England, France, Germany, Scandanavia.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Look at this:

Its an english coin from the year 757, just 194 years after the Irish, through Colmcille and the Iona monestary began the mission for christianity in the British Isles, and it bears the Shahada - The Islamic testimony of faith.

Its not an english coin, its a European dinar. It has a picture of the Christian King of Mercia who conquered part of England and the coin was believed to have been minted either to trade with Spain (which does have a strong Islamic history) or as part of the anual payment to Rome. I dont think it has quiote the implication you think it has.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Also, llok at this:

It's a map of the Ottoman Caliphate, at it's height. Indeed, til 1915, a reasonably large chunk of Europe was still under the figure-head control of the last remaining Muslim Caliph.

If you cross reference that map with a map of the current states of the european union you see that the chunk isnt as big as the map makes it seem (greece, hungary, romania, slovakia and bulgaria).

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Islam has been a European for religon thusly for centuries.

Islam has a history, certainly, with some parts of Europe, but its mostly Eastern Europe and like I already said, I was talking about Western Europe.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Now,moving toward western Europe, nations like Germany, Holland and some scandanavians invited immigrants into their lands to complete the great reconstructive miracle in the wake of the second world war.
In every case, the majority of these immigrants were Muslim, and happy enough to endure whatever they did for the sake of a better life.

Source?

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

If a nun can teach in a school in a habit, why not a Muslim woman in a Hijab.

Agreed.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

If a Jewish community can live by the halakah, why not a muslim community by the shariah.

I dont know the specific of either set of laws so all I will say is that in either case both laws should still be subject to the law of the country they are in.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

If a sikh can grow a long beard and wear religiously mandated clothing, why not a Muslim man.

Agreed (have never really heard of an issue with this, its normally what the women are "made" wear that people seem to have a problem with)

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Churches, with spires containing bells are present in most every town, why not a purpose built Mosque with minarets.

Agreed, if people want to build them, and there is a place to do so.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Young muslims are demanding equal rights, the same rights afforded others, but rights their parents were afraid to ask for.

I cant help but read this as being a bit hypocritical though. "Young muslims" are demanding equal rights that others have, and yet Islam itself does not afford equal rights among men and women. A women must wear ahijab, yet a man doesn't. In some Islamic countries, even non-muslims women are forced to do so.

Sonic_exyouth wrote: »

Allowing these equal rights to be afforded to all, including Muslims, are the 'changes do I think europe should make to integrate better'.

I agree that everyone should have the same rights. If this "lack of intergration" is about muslims being actively discriminated against in all aspects of their life then it should just be called what it is - Racism, and the people doing so should be suitably punished.

Mark Hamill

wes wrote: »

Again, look at Canada, who have similar success in integration to the US, and they are not nearly as Religous.

What should Europe learn from Canada then?

wes wrote: »

Now the above is what I want to emulate. If I work hard, pay my taxes and obey the law of the land etc, then I expect to be treated like everyone else.

Agreed.

Sesshoumaru

wes wrote: »

Now the above is what I want to emulate. If I work hard, pay my taxes and obey the law of the land etc, then I expect to be treated like everyone else.

No issue from me, this is the part of American culture I respect the most. As someone with a mixed race family you could say I have a personal stake in creating a system like this!

wes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

What should Europe learn from Canada then?

What methods they use to successfully integrate immigrant communities and then figure out if any of those methods will work in trouble spots in Europe.

getz

you can not compare the USA with the EU,the US population is about 307,212,123 the estimated number of muslim there is about 4 million a lot of them converted black people --in the UK alone with a population of 61,113,205 there are 1,176,000 muslims,most of them with ethnic and culture backgrounds, in the US there are people who have never even met a muslim,

Mark Hamill

wes wrote: »

What methods they use to successfully integrate immigrant communities and then figure out if any of those methods will work in trouble spots in Europe.

I found this article at Settlement.org, which describes Canadas process and aims, might be interesting if dont actually know what they are.
Accoding to the article they use settlement programs with the following policies driving them:

The policy underpinnings on which the settlement programs rest include the following principles:
· Integration is a two-way process that involves commitment on the part of newcomers to adapt to life in Canada and on the part of Canadians to adapt to new people and cultures.
· The ability of newcomers to communicate in one of Canada's official languages is key to integration.
· The contributions of newcomers to the economic and social fabric of Canada are valued. It is important for newcomers to become financially self-sufficient and be able to participate in the social dimensions of life in Canada. It is important for members of communities in Canada to help ensure that newcomers have opportunities to participate in and contribute to all the positive aspects of Canadian life.
· It is important to share with newcomers the principles, traditions, and values that are inherent in Canadian society such as freedom, equality, and participatory democracy.
· Settlement and integration services will be directed at assisting newcomers to become self-sufficient as soon as possible. Priority will be given to those facing significant barriers to integration and who are deemed most in need within the community.
· Settlement and integration services across the country will be flexible, responsive, and reasonably comparable.

Seems fairly logical: have newcomers able to speak a local language, make them financially independent and have them contributing to the local economy and society.

wes

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Seems fairly logical: have newcomers able to speak a local language, make them financially independent and have them contributing to the local economy and society.

Yeah, seems like a simple enough system that benefits everyone.