Brazil's Dodgy Defense

ShoulderChip

I keep hearing how Brazil are great going forward, but weak at the back.
I would just like to ask which national team has a better defense?

consider

Julio Cesar in goal - in the prime of his career, single handedly kept them in the running against United.

and then

Maicon....Juan.....Lucio.......Alves

with luisao on the bench and cover from marcelo (r.madrid), Alex (chelsea) and the united da silva twins yet to be needed.


In my opinion it is up there with the best of them and certainly not a weak link.

Morzadec

I think its perhaps more based on the fact that Maicon and Alves are pretty much wingers. They play so far up the pitch, and hence are often caught out of position.

What Brazil don't have is a world-class defensive midfielder. They wouldn't be conceding 3 to Egypt if they did.

Still you're right, on paper some very good defensive players, but this doesn't necessarily translate to a great defence. The whole team needs to defend not just the back 4, so in this respect they're still somewhat suspect.

Headshot

ShoulderChip wrote: »

I keep hearing how Brazil are great going forward, but weak at the back.
I would just like to ask which national team has a better defense?

consider

Julio Cesar in goal - in the prime of his career, single handedly kept them in the running against United.

and then

Maicon....Juan.....Lucio.......Alves

with luisao on the bench and cover from marcelo (r.madrid), Alex (chelsea) and the united da silva twins yet to be needed.


In my opinion it is up there with the best of them and certainly not a weak link.

i havent seen enough of Maicon to comment but Alves is brilliant going forward but cant defend and Lucio get these mad urges to drive forward so he can be dodgy

Bounty Hunter

Morzadec wrote: »

I think its perhaps more based on the fact that Maicon and Alves are pretty much wingers. They play so far up the pitch, and hence are often caught out of position.

What Brazil don't have is a world-class defensive midfielder. They wouldn't be conceding 3 to Egypt if they did.

Still you're right, on paper some very good defensive players, but this doesn't necessarily translate to a great defence. The whole team needs to defend not just the back 4, so in this respect they're still somewhat suspect.

winnah winnah chicken dinner

couldent sum it up better, Dungas Brazil needs its own Dunga if its going to play with such attacking WBs imo.

ShoulderChip

right that makes some sense alright, RTE boys are saying gilberto silva is past it, maybe melo will continue to improve.

Does anyone know how likely it is that Ronaldo or Adriano may make a comeback for the world cup?

Morzadec

ShoulderChip wrote: »

right that makes some sense alright, RTE boys are saying gilberto silva is past it, maybe melo will continue to improve.

Does anyone know how likely it is that Ronaldo or Adriano may make a comeback for the world cup?

I'm no expert but I would say highly unlikely

CantGetNoSleep

I wouldn't be too shocked to see Ronaldo in the squad, he is scoring a few goals over there

kinaldo

A defense is more than a back four and keeper and starts with the attackers.

Brazil are really lacking in midfield, and up front they no longer have a Ronaldo or Romario to rely upon.

For the record, Brazil conceded more against Egypt than Spain had in their previous SIXTEEN games, stretching all the way back to their EC quarter final against Italy.

It's incredible, and not a good sign, that Brazil are still relying on an ageing Gilberto Silva, now playing in the Greek league, to protect their back four.

Spain on the other hand have a galaxy of midfielders to keep hold of the ball with, which, if you think about it, is clearly the best way to defend.

Vokes

Here's a nice article on Dunga's Brazil setup: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jun/24/the-question-brazil-4-2-3-1

Gilberto Silva and Melo are pretty much just the '09 version of Maura Silva and Dunga in '94. Either one covering a vacant fullback position if the opposition start a counterattack. It seems to be going pretty well the past 2 years but you get the feeling Gilberto is just too old at this stage and will be even slower next summer, which will definitely cause problems for the Brazil defence.

daithijjj

'Keeping our defensive shape' is not a prolific tactic in brazilian football. They consistantly produce the best attacking full backs in the world.

PHB

It's not that they don't have the players, they don't have the ethos for it. Defense is a team effort.

Pro. F

ShoulderChip wrote: »

consider

Julio Cesar in goal - in the prime of his career, single handedly kept them in the running against United.

and then

Maicon....Juan.....Lucio.......Alves

with luisao on the bench and cover from marcelo (r.madrid), Alex (chelsea) and the united da silva twins

People have already talked about the lack of defensive attitude in the team and the weak defensive midfield which i agree with.

I'll add this:
Most of there defenders a muck at defending. And not just because they like to get forward. They lack defender skills.

Alves & Santos - very poor at defending. Maicon can defend a bit but he's nothing to write home about.

Lucio lacks acceleration and switches off now and again.
Luisao hasn't got a clue how to defend at times. He makes some terrible decisions.
Juan and Marcelo switch off too. And Alex is alright but hardly amazing.

So that leaves Julio Cesar. One of the best keepers in the world alright, no argument there.

Brazil's defence is dodgy. They need to rely on out-scoring the opposition when it gets to the big competitions imo. Something that they're happy to do.

leninbenjamin

Vokes wrote: »

Here's a nice article on Dunga's Brazil setup: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jun/24/the-question-brazil-4-2-3-1

Gilberto Silva and Melo are pretty much just the '09 version of Maura Silva and Dunga in '94. Either one covering a vacant fullback position if the opposition start a counterattack. It seems to be going pretty well the past 2 years but you get the feeling Gilberto is just too old at this stage and will be even slower next summer, which will definitely cause problems for the Brazil defence.

that's all a bit moot tbh. it doesn't really matter what system they play and what you label it, it's a case of personnel.

What the current Brazil squad lack is a deep lying midfield play-maker. Think about it, Italy have Pirlo (or had, seeing as Italy are largely past it now), Spain have Xavi and Alonso, the Dutch have VDV, Argentina have Gago. Almost all the worlds top teams these days, even at club level, when faced with a really compact opposition like SA played last night, have players who can come deep, pick the ball up off the defensive players and have the range of passing to start an attack.

Brazil, for all their technique and attackers, do not have this. They rely on the counter and set pieces. If these don't show, they are out of ideas (as we saw last night).

As for Gilberto, we also saw last night why Dunga still values him so highly. Frankly, there are very few players in the game as good as getting into covering positions as he is. And that's very very important to a team who rely on the full backs to create width to the extent Brazil do. As soon as Maicon picked up the ball, Gilberto instantly slotted in behind him, or dropped into central defence so Lucio could go wide, regardless of whether Maicon went anywhere or not. That's why he'll more than likely be in the world cup squad next summer, regardless of his ageing body.

Pro. F

leninbenjamin wrote: »

What the current Brazil squad lack is a deep lying midfield play-maker. Think about it, Italy have Pirlo (or had, seeing as Italy are largely past it now), Spain have Xavi and Alonso, the Dutch have VDV, Argentina have Gago. Almost all the worlds top teams these days, even at club level, when faced with a really compact opposition like SA played last night, have players who can come deep, pick the ball up off the defensive players and have the range of passing to start an attack.

Brazil, for all their technique and attackers, do not have this. They rely on the counter and set pieces. If these don't show, they are out of ideas (as we saw last night).

What Brazil lacked last night was width.

They have plenty of skill through out the team. Almost any of their midfield can come deep and start an attack. And there CBs are comfortable on the ball too so they can help out creatively.

Nearly every attack went through the middle last night and nobody provided a wide option for them.

leninbenjamin

Pro. F wrote: »

What Brazil lacked last night was width.

They have plenty of skill through out the team. Almost any of their midfield can come deep and start an attack. And there CBs are comfortable on the ball too so they can help out creatively.

Nearly every attack went through the middle last night and nobody provided a wide option for them.

yes and no. the width was a problem all right. However Brazil started with Maicon and Santos on the right, both players who like to get forward. However, anytime they got the ball there was no room for them to go forward. And anytime Melo or Silva had it, they couldn't find a way forward either, and the fullbacks were forced to stay close to offer a pass, hindering the width.

If they had a midfielder with a greater range of passing, it would have been different. There would have been through balls for the fullbacks to latch onto, little balls over the top to stretch the defence for Robinho and Fabiano. The kind of thing that needs to happen against compact defences, that just didn't show up on the menu last night.

the lack of width was a symptom imo of not having a decent playmaker.

Pro. F

There was plenty of space out wide last night and Brazil didn't put players out there to provide an option for a pass. That's how i saw it.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

gustavo

IMO it's a myth and a tired cliche

DmanDmythDledge

gustavo wrote: »

IMO it's a myth and a tired cliche

+1. Same as Barca. Although Brazil do have a tendancy to leave themselves exposed at times.

leninbenjamin

gustavo wrote: »

IMO it's a myth and a tired cliche

as i like to say, it is and it isn't. The defence is far from dodgy, but it's still not the worlds best and has vulnerabilities that can be exploited. Tbh, without Gilberto covering all the time they'd look a lot weaker than they are. Just watch how he slots in when Lucio, or the fullbacks go for a walk. Gilberto is still probably their most important defensive player.

Same with Barca (although as Pique develops i think he's compensating for some of their past weaknesses nicely).

yahoo_moe

gustavo wrote: »

IMO it's a myth and a tired cliche

'Tired cliche' doesn't always equal 'myth' though. I wouldn't agree with the 'Brazil prefer to win 5-4 than 2-0' thing but I wouldn't rate theirs as one of the world's best defences.

While they have the ability, they don't seem to have the system/motivation to defend well consistently (ie clean sheets about 60% of the time, maybe even more for internationals). This is also to do with the way they attack, though (look at how much longer Spain/Barca retain the ball for as they attack patiently compared to Brazil's style, which I'd describe as more explosive).