Michael Jackson Death discussion thread - CHAT, NOT JOKES

Witcher

PeakOutput wrote: »

unless i missed the memo not guilty is not the same as innocent by any stretch of the imagination

if he didnt die and this was just a thread on micheal jackson no1 would be getting their panties in a twist over jokes or accusations

NOTHING HAS CHANGED JSUT BECAUSE HE DIED

i hope the stories were not true but i have a nagging feeling they were

he was a musical legend to many but because of the way he lived his life there are numerous people in their early to late 20s who only know him for his crazy antics and not because of his music as it was just before their time

Eh yes it is?

There was no evidence to back up the case, does that not tell you that its a pretty bullsh1t case?

I could call you a murderer and say you killed Maddie McCann, (which you didnt do) it could go to court and you be found not guilty, does that mean you're not innocent just because I made an accusation and it went to court and you were found not guilty?

RonMexico

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/music/ref=pd_ts_zgc_m_music_display_on_website_more?pf_rd_p=482110191&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=5174&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0PP25WVJXFAX2M9A0GHR

The top 15 selling albums right now are all Michael Jackson. The top 5 albums on itunes are Michael Jackson. He is going to smash records all over the world in the next week. Unbelievable.

PeakOutput

Blay wrote: »

Eh yes it is?

oj simpson was found not guilty and then released a book entitled something along the lines of 'if i did it, this is how i would have done it' was oj simpson innocent?

ask any judge or lawyer or anyone who knows anything about law saying someone is not guilty is not the same as saying they are innocent

Sephiroth_dude

RIP Michael Jackson,thank you for the music and the thrill her video,one of the best music videos ever.

Witcher

PeakOutput wrote: »

oj simpson was found not guilty and then released a book entitled something along the lines of 'if i did it, this is how i would have done it' was oj simpson innocent?

ask any judge or lawyer or anyone who knows anything about law saying someone is not guilty is not the same as saying they are innocent

Eh were talking about Michael Jackson here..O.J Simpson's guilt or innocence has nothing to do with this.


In the common law tradition, an acquittal formally certifies the innocence of the accused, as far as the criminal law is concerned If the boy's family were certain he was molested why wasn't it persued in a civil court?

murfie

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

Even if MJ did molest kids (and I don't believe he did) it doesn't affect the musical achievements - 750 million albums sold. INCREDIBLE!! That is one of the reasons why he is a legend.

I am amazed at that opinion.

How could he be a legend if it comes out that in fact he did the things he was accused of. 750 million albums or not, if he did the things that he was accused of he can rot in hell!

is_that_so

RonMexico wrote: »

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/music/ref=pd_ts_zgc_m_music_display_on_website_more?pf_rd_p=482110191&pf_rd_s=right-5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=5174&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0PP25WVJXFAX2M9A0GHR

The top 15 selling albums right now are all Michael Jackson. The top 5 albums on itunes are Michael Jackson. He is going to smash records all over the world in the next week. Unbelievable.

No surprise really. The Presley estate gets about $30 million a year and he's been dead for over 30 years. Paradoxically Jackson's death may take care of any financial problems his estate has.

Witcher

murfie wrote: »

I am amazed at that opinion.

How could he be a legend if it comes out that in fact he did the things he was accused of. 750 million albums or not, if he did the things that he was accused of he can rot in hell!

He didn't, it was proven in a court of law.

dr oatker

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Not as gifted as Lennon lol...Jackson was definitely more musically gifted than Lennon, if Lennon hadn't been shot he wouldn't get nearly as much acclaim as he does.

Lennon was very musically talented, no doubt about it, but Jackson was even better. If his personal life hadn't cast such a shadow over his work, and he wasn't such an easy target for mockery he would get far more recognition for that fact.

Agree to disagree on that. I think that Jackson will be remembered for his dance routines and his videos more than his music, (thriller excepted, and only because it sold shedloads)

Unfortunately for his fans the child molestation accusations won't go away either. In fact, after the initial rush of sympathy after his death subsides you'll get all sorts of stuff being said because dead men can't sue.

thelordofcheese

murfie wrote: »

Why would he have even offered a settlement unless his lawyers thought there was a chance they wouldnt win, How many court cases was it? How many accusations are there that we dont know of?

So they'd rather have had money than take him to court and see justice done... yeah, i'm not buying your argument here.

And his lawyers did the right thing, they saw some money grabbing shills and ended the court case as quickly as they could. Hardly a sign of guilt.

useful_contacts

RonMexico wrote: »

Breaking news, no other details as of yet...


EDIT: Just would like to say so long Jacko. I'm stunned.

I was in my sisters last night when the news broke and we were both in tears- im so shocked:( RIP MICHAEL

"He may not make the stage down here but he's dancin in heaven now !! R.I.P Michael u will be sadly missed u'lll always be the King of Pop"

Professey Chin

dr oatker wrote: »

In fact, after the initial rush of sympathy after his death subsides you'll get all sorts of stuff being said because dead men can't sue.

Dead mens estates can though

T-K-O

Even though he was proven innocent MJ unfortunately will forever be tarnished with the child molester tag - That is the way of the world.

Dont you guys find it strange that the majority of the so called "insiders" who backed up these claims only did so years after the event.

I know if I witnessed anything like that I would report it straight away and not continue to work for such a person.

No doubt he was a strange individual but a child molester that does not make.

murfie

Blay wrote: »

He didn't, it was proven in a court of law.

I realise that but the statement of I_am_Jebus that he would be a legend even if he did do those things is was I was talking about.

Cant be called a legend if you have done those things, MJ or anyone else.

It was not proven in a court of law so in this case it is ok to call him legend.

Einstein

d'Oracle wrote: »

It mystifies me how Micheal Jackson can be an inspiration or role model to anyone.

Infact, anyone who has Micheal Jackson as a role model, is probably going to be a severely warped and dysfunctional person.

What a stupidly uneducated post.
Theres no doubt that his last few years were covered with strange behaviour etc. But during the 1980's he was probably by far one the biggest influences of that decade.
Ask any of the motown musicians who there influences are, find me pop stars / musicians / dancers / entertainers that weren't influenced by MJ, my guess is you'll be lucky to find any of them that didn't think he was a genius in his art form.
Regardless of the fact whether or not people were fans of his, to insist that anybody he influenced is warped and dysfucntional is possibly one of the most uneducated posts I've seen on this site in the time that I joined.

vincenzo1975

Michael Jackson RIP.

you can say what you want and make whatever jokes about him, but in the end, he seriously influenced our generation.

Nice tribute here....

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090625/PEOPLE/906259982

Ardent

I_am_Jebus wrote: »

I don't know really, a court of law proved him innocent. That's all that matters at present in relation to those accusations.

TBH, I think Michael was 50 going on 10 and was like that most of his life (Neverland etc...)

I have no doubt that some of the stuff he said and done with children was bad judegement and stupid on his part but the impression I always got was that he was a child himself. He was his own worst enemy in my opinion but I don't believe he was paedophile/molestor.

Well said, exactly how I feel also.

Witcher

murfie wrote: »

I realise that but the statement of I_am_Jebus that he would be a legend even if he did do those things is was I was talking about.

Cant be called a legend if you have done those things, MJ or anyone else.

It was not proven in a court of law so in this case it is ok to call him legend.

Ah yes, I see what you mean:)

murfie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

So they'd rather have had money than take him to court and see justice done... yeah, i'm not buying your argument here.

And his lawyers did the right thing, they saw some money grabbing shills and ended the court case as quickly as they could. Hardly a sign of guilt.

Its 6 of one, half dozen of the other. My take on why MJ offered the settlement if just as valid as yours. You have no idea what his lawyers saw, maybe they knew things we don't. I concede I could be totally wrong but so could you.

keefg

dr oatker wrote: »

Agree to disagree on that.

Indeed.

keefg wrote: »

Lennon did a great job while that McCartney fella was around to help him out with the song writing, after The Beatles split though it all turned to crap for Lennon.

Lucky for him (musically, not personally ) that he was killed when he was because an extended solo career would have been woeful.

dr oatker wrote: »

I think that Jackson will be remembered for his dance routines and his videos more than his music, (thriller excepted, and only because it sold shedloads)

I think it's impossible to dissect it that way myself, MJ was an all-round entertainer and the songs, dancing & innovative videos were all part of the package.

dr oatker wrote: »

Unfortunately for his fans the child molestation accusations won't go away either. In fact, after the initial rush of sympathy after his death subsides you'll get all sorts of stuff being said because dead men can't sue.

Sad but true. A lot of crap was said about Elvis after the initial shock of his death past.

thelordofcheese

murfie wrote: »

Its 6 of one, half dozen of the other. My take on why MJ offered the settlement if just as valid as yours. You have no idea what his lawyers saw, maybe they knew things we don't. I concede I could be totally wrong but so could you.

Not really, MJ was a noted and painful introvert outside of his stage persona (remember the masks and stuff?) i have no problem believeing he'd be willing to throw money at the problem just to make it go away.

irl/silverfox/

michael rest in peace you were a shining light for people you made people dance sing and have fun

you are missed by everyone

PeakOutput

Blay wrote: »

He didn't, it was proven in a court of law.

not it wasnt your really misguided

being found not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent it just is not the same no matter how many times you say it

you say the lack of proof shows it was a farce of a case

in sexual assault and rape and paedophilia cases most of the time there is no evidence accept for the word of the victim

if anyother adult else was accused of molesting a boy and that adult admitted to sleeping with the boy they would be found guilty (rightly or wrongly)

edit i dont care either way by the way i just think your wrong, i understand why alot of people admire him but think they unfortunately admire him blindly. i understand why alot of people speak badly abouthim and i think they also are missing out on all the good things he did

musically he should be an inspiration but as for being a role model in life you must be mad

Witcher

PeakOutput wrote: »

not it wasnt your really misguided

being found not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent it just is not the same no matter how many times you say it

you say the lack of proof shows it was a farce of a case

in sexual assault and rape and paedophilia cases most of the time there is no evidence accept for the word of the victim

if anyother adult else was accused of molesting a boy and that adult admitted to sleeping with the boy they would be found guilty (rightly or wrongly)

Eh I'm sorry but you are misguided, he was acquitted on all 10 charges by a jury in Santa Barbara.

Yes, but many times there's actual evidence in the case. Also sleeping with someone doesn't mean you have molested them..

In rape cases alot of evidence is based around dna evidence and an examination of the victim by a doctor. Dunno where you got the info that you can just say "yeah he raped me" and that your whole case. The word of a person in a case is useless in court, it's not evidence, the accused can just say "I did not" and that's the victims evidence cancelled out. Has to be independant evidence in the case to get a conviction eg forensics, witnesses etc. It can be used as an accompanyment to other evidence but not the sole basis of the case.

Again I post this:

In the common law tradition, an acquittal formally certifies the innocence of the accused, as far as the criminal law is concerned

Quazzie

PeakOutput wrote: »

being found not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent it just is not the same no matter how many times you say it

Innocent until proven Guilty. One of the fundamental basics in most judicial systems.

He wasn't found guilty, so therefore is still Innocent. At the end of the day it boils down to the simplicity of that statement.

PeakOutput

Blay wrote: »

The word of a person in a case is useless in court, it's not evidence, the accused can just say "I did not" and that's the victims evidence cancelled out.:

the word of the victim has been more than enough to send people to prison

see the case of the man recently proven innocent when the victim told gardai she lied ten years ago when she said he abused her

there was no evidence other than her word

he was convicted

other than that see my edit i dont think we will agree

Witcher

PeakOutput wrote: »

the word of the victim has been more than enough to send people to prison

see the case of the man recently proven innocent when the victim told gardai she lied ten years ago when she said he abused her

there was no evidence other than her word

he was convicted

other than that see my edit i dont think we will agree

Yes, but that was the Irish justice system, here killers sentences of <10 years or are acquitted altogether. The system here is retarded anyone will agree to that.

Could argue this all over the shop all day, but the fact is history will show that he was found not guilty in a court of law.

I was in Time Square when the news was made official at .. maybe 6pm (local time). There were no news tickers stating he had died. It was a slow process. Some crowds started to gather, a few tv crews then. Come 10pm it was on all the tickers, there were dozens of camera crews out and a few people had erected makeshift signs stating, "RIP Michael Jackson".

It all seemed so surreal.

PeakOutput

Quazzie wrote: »

Innocent until proven Guilty. One of the fundamental basics in most judicial systems.

He wasn't found guilty, so therefore is still Innocent. At the end of the day it boils down to the simplicity of that statement.

im not disputing that, im disputing the statement that he was 'proven innocent' he wasnt he is assumed innocent because there is not enough evidence to prove he is guilty. thats all im saying. you cannot say he was definitely not a molester just like i cannot say he definitely is.

in my opinion i would not be suprised in the slightest if he did the things he was accused of

he lived the second half of his life in a very negative media light which is why alot of people under 30 think he is a crackpot who released some good albums

he lived the first half of his life releasing great albums which is why people who were around then see him as a great artist who got a raw deal

both parts of his life contribute to his legacy and most people here are leaving one out completely depending on their view point

Ghost Girl

It doesn't matter what any one thinks of Michael Jackson. He was a genius. That cannot be taken away from him. There will never be another Michael Jackson.