Foinse goes out of business

Wibbs

Fair play to you and I'm not saying all parents at all. It is some though that the snobbishness is a factor. As I said I've seen it up close.

JC 2K3

Wibbs wrote: »

Fair play to them. That's not at issue, but what should be explored is why they and others don't speak the language if they support it so much. Makes no sense to me. I mean we all have a fair capacity to learn language. We all did it at least once. It's like comparing it to parents who support a child in becoming a concert pianist. They may not have the talent to do it, but support their kids efforts. Cool, but again language is not a talent in the same way. Everyone uses it. Everyday. It is part and parcel of what makes us human, never mind irish or french or chinese. If I support something that is as intrinsic as everyday communication then it should stand to reason I would use it and not just support it.

Your view is far too black and white. Irish is obviously not going to overtake English as a medium for everyday communication. And language doesn't necessarily have to be an everyday thing. There's a huge feelgood factor surrounding Irish. Speaking it is like a pastime to many. People support it despite not speaking it because it instills a sense of pride and independence.

And that's what it's all about. Anyone who believes that it's about eventually replacing English as the primary method of communication, or even coming close to competing with it is deluded IMO.

Wibbs

Oh no I see what you mean, but it then has a tendency to sound more like a hobby rather than a language, if you see what I mean. Great if that's what you want to do and fair play, but why should my taxes(and a lot of my taxes) go towards promoting it. It's the first official language of the country in name only. It's like sticking a turbo sticker on the back of an ordinary family hatchback. It says it has one, but it doesn't.

I honestly can't think of another example of an official european/EU language in nearly the same category(or anywhere else except vaguely like in the old soviet satellite nations). It's like saying Basque is the first official language of France or Spain. It's just wouldn't be true. OK let both sides of this argument step back objectively and imagine for the moment walking up to a spaniard and them telling you that basque was the national official language. You ask them to speak it, because so far all you've ever heard in Spain is spanish and they reply they can't, or they speak it badly, or that it's mainly in special areas that it's spoken daily and in certain schools, or by people who have an interest in it, or people who see it as some quasi political tool, but the majority of spaniards can't speak basque after the leave school as adults, yet they support it's survival and think it's a great and wonderful addition to spanish culture and the Madrid government puts millions into promoting it's use. Mucho scratching of heads would ensue and you would think them a bit daft, yet we accept this in Ireland as a given. On both sides of the argument. It's a bit strange to say the least.

I agree it should have official language status(like basque/catalan in spain, or french, german, italian in switzerland), but not first and not propped up by the expenditure it currently has, that has clearly not worked throughout the entire history of the state. I wouldn't be surprised to find that proportionately less people speak it now, than did in 1922.

stovelid

ejmaztec wrote: »

I know that I'm a plastic paddy and couldn't be arsed even beginning to learn Irish,

ejmaztec wrote: »

Ten full-time journalists are set to lose their jobs following a decision to close down Ireland's only Irish-language newspaper.
.

These two statements are linked somehow. I can't put my finger on it.

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

1) Exclusivity would be a large part of it. I hear it from parents who have their kids in such schools quite a bit.

2) I'm not, I'm merely pointing out the pointlessness of trotting it out as a statistic every time the topic of the state and popularity of Irish as a language is brought up. Because it's largely meaningless. It's like conducting a poll among pioneers about belgian beers.

3) When it comes to a language that is supposed to be an integral part of any culture, in this case Irish culture, I would say exactly that.

4) You're not comparing like with like. Playing professional soccer, rugby or being a rock star are hardly everyday things for the vast majority of the people on this planet. Communication and the language one communicates in is. Comparing excellence in a minority pursuit and support of same by a majority is not the same. Apples and oranges.

5) As it stands I would go somewhat along with that. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. English is overwhelmingly the language of choice for the vast majority of Irish people on this island. They may say they support Irish, but why then is Irish is the minority language on this island?

6) In daily use, Polish and Chinese etc are probably more used as actual methods of communication. That may change and cool if it does, but if it does change it'll not come from lip service "support", it'll come from people wanting to and choosing to practically use it. I personally can't see that changing much.

7) Yes you will get blips on the line, up and down over time, but a majority speaking it fluently as a living language? Can't see it happening anytime soon.

1) Well, such exclusivity if it exists is a policy not an ethos. It is also something practised by most schools, whether that exclusivity is to do with catchment area, sex, or religion. Laying this accusation at the door of Gaelscoileanna while not acknowledging that it is a pervasive factor in education is disingenuous.

2) It's certainly not like conducting a poll among pioneers about belgian beers. That would have the problem of self-selection bias where a particular cohort is bound to give a particular response. My understanding is that the polls referred to are taken from the general population which necessarily must be regarded as featuring a genuine cross-section of the population.

3) There is no simpler answer to this than to say you are ludricrously wrong as any corollary to this view shows i.e. you cannot say you support traditional music unless you can play an instrument, a English person cannot say they support indigenous English culture unless they do a mean Morris dance. It's a ridiculous and self-serving argument.

4) The principle is exactly the same. You are saying that because only a relatively small number reach proficiency level in a language the claimed support of the majority can to be disgregarded. Again your problem is the corollary to this argument which I have outlined and which is a legitimate comparison. Likewise people are entitled to say they support charities and their existence without having to spend the rest of their lives working in Calcutta to prove it.

5) To say that English is the language of choice is to confuse strategy with apathy. People speak English because they grew up speaking it. They never made a conscious choice in the matter. You can be assured that if they ever had to learn it they wouldn't. Ask any native English speaker to conjugate the past perfect of the verb 'to swim' and see how taken with the minutia of their 'chosen' language they really are.

Irish is the minority language because people can function without it and it takes significant time and effort to learn it and most people are apathetic on most things so will not invest that time and effort. I'd like to be able to maintain my own car but I never had the required motivation to follow up this and learn. But I couldn't say I ever sat down and made a considered decision to pay through the nose at the local garage. This the type of laissez-faire view that governs most of us on most issues if we are honest.

6) This is perhaps the most disingenuous argument of the anti-Irish lobby and they have many competitors for that sobriquet. So we have a lot of Polish and Chinese immigrants.........so what? Should be raze Kilmainham Jail to the ground build a fun-sized great wall of China on the site just to reflect new realities?

7) Who knows what will become of the Irish language in the long-term future. Is minic a rinne bromach gioblach capall cumasach. But again this seems to be a case of deliberately setting the bar unattainably high. Nobody has suggested that replacing English as the vernacular is the target. Perhaps in time to come if and when Irish ever reaches the critical mass necessary for a language to spread quickly, that might become the target but it certainly is not so now.

As far as I can see people by and large want to be able to support and promote Irish without being mocked, ridiculed, and attacked with a tsunami of specious and spurious arguments. And without constantly having to endure the sniping of majoritarions who appear to want to turn the population into culturally strait-jacketed automatons hidebound by the tastes and narrow vision of a large cohort which just goes with the flow and then tries to pass it off as a conscious vision of how society should function.

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

It's the first official language of the country in name only.

Er, that's precisely what being an official language is about. It is not meant to reflect the number of speakers. It reflects the languages recognised and promoted at official level. Less than 1 per cent of Swiss speak the Romansh dialects yet it is an official language.

Galician has semi-official status even with the EU and it doesn't even have an agreed official standard.

Quite why you draw a distinction between first and second national languages I'm not sure. What practical difference does that make?

You don't like minorites very much do you?

Wibbs

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) Well, such exclusivity if it exists is a policy not an ethos. It is also something practised by most schools, whether that exclusivity is to do with catchment area, sex, or religion. Laying this accusation at the door of Gaelscoileanna while not acknowledging that it is a pervasive factor in education is disingenuous.

I never said it wasn't, but we were talking about Irish schools, not the education system.

2) It's certainly not like conducting a poll among pioneers about belgian beers. That would have the problem of self-selection bias where a particular cohort is bound to give a particular response. My understanding is that the polls referred to are taken from the general population which necessarily must be regarded as featuring a genuine cross-section of the population.

Actually it was meant as a joke, but anyway. In any case you could argue there is a bias as most would be dubious to say Irish actually has no relevance for them, lest they guilty for not promoting a sense of culture.

3) There is no simpler answer to this than to say you are ludricrously wrong as any corollary to this view shows i.e. you cannot say you support traditional music unless you can play an instrument, a English person cannot say they support indigenous English culture unless they do a mean Morris dance. It's a ridiculous and self-serving argument.

Of course the obvious reverse of that is any sense of irishness is not tied to the language, which many of the pro Irish camp tend to push. But it's not a ridiculous argument, what you're actually saying is that just because you don't do something doesn't mean you can't support it. Cool, but then the doing of it in the languages case is the crux of the matter. If say as an extreme only 1000 people spoke Irish in this country and 99.9% of the rest supported that, fine but it would hardly be worthy of being considered anything like a useful language, a part of our inclusive culture, or a language worthwhile of government support.

4) The principle is exactly the same. You are saying that because only a relatively small number reach proficiency level in a language the claimed support of the majority can to be disgregarded. Again your problem is the corollary to this argument which I have outlined and which is a legitimate comparison. Likewise people are entitled to say they support charities and their existence without having to spend the rest of their lives working in Calcutta to prove it.

Again apples and oranges and circular with it. I can support something and it can have little or no effect on my life. OK fine, but something that is supposed to be an intrinsic part of my culture? The charities one actually made me laugh as it is more correct in a lot of ways. People will say they support Irish like they support charities. It's easy to do so, rather than actually work in a charity or speak irish. Bad enough for charities, but pretty dismal for the support of something so intrinsic as language.

5) To say that English is the language of choice is to confuse strategy with apathy. People speak English because they grew up speaking it. They never made a conscious choice in the matter. You can be assured that if they ever had to learn it they wouldn't. Ask any native English speaker to conjugate the past perfect of the verb 'to swim' and see how taken with the minutia of their 'chosen' language they really are

Yep that's how languages happen. A Spanish, French or Uzbek person doesn't make a conscious decision about learning their indigenous language. Therefore to all intents and purposes Irish is not our indigenous language and at this time in our history is as much a cultural language imposed on us from on high as english was in the past. (Have/had swum IIRC, though I agree english grammar is badly taught here too, so without a foundation in grammar, trying to learn another language is made all the more difficult).

Irish is the minority language because people can function with out and it takes time and effort to learn it and most people are apathetic on most things so will not invest that time and effort. I'd like to be able to maintain my own car but I never had the required motivation to follow up this and learn. I didn't ever sit down and make a considered decision to pay through the nose at the local garage. This the type of laissez-faire view that governs most of us on most issues if we are honest.

I agree, but I shouldn't have to be taxed to subsidise fixing your car either, or taxed to prop up a bad mechanic who consistently leaves your car in disrepair.

6) This is perhaps the most disingenuous argument of the anti-Irish lobby and they have many competitors for that sobriquet. So we have a lot of Polish and Chinese immigrants.........so what? Should be raze Kilmainham Jail to the ground build a fun-sized great wall of china on the site just to reflect new realities?

Why not? (oh the howls on this one). That has happened before and will happen again. Cultures change and edifices change to reflect new realities all the time. How many statues of queen victoria do you see in Ireland these days? It's not so long ago that Irish men and women waved flags as she passed by on her visits here. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but it just happens. The day Kilmainham gaol no longer has cultural resonance or value and gets in the way of a something that does, it will be razed or fall into ruin. It may never happen, but it could. It has less resonance now than it did say 50 years ago. In 500 years, in a 1000 years?

7) Who knows what will become of the Irish language in the long-term future. Is minic a rinne bromach gioblach capall cumasach. But again this seems to be a case of deliberately setting the bar unattainably high. Nobody has suggested that replacing English as the vernacular is the target. Perhaps in time to come if and when Irish ever reaches the critical mass necessary for a language to spread quickly, that might become the target but it certainly is not so now.

Ok and that's fine. I have no issue with that.

As far as I can see people by and large want to be able to support and promote Irish without being mocked, ridiculed, and attacked with a tsunami of specious and spurious arguments by majoritarions trying to turn the population into culturally strait-jacketed automatons hidebound by the tastes and narrow vision of a large cohort which just goes with the flow and tries to pass it off as a conscious vision of how society should function.

I agree funny enough, but much of the problem with the irish language was that all too often it went hand in hand with just such a culturally strait jacketed notion of Irishness. If you weren't an Irish speaking, GAA supporting, trad music afficionado, suckling your baby bare titted at the cross roads, you weren't quite "Irish" enough. There is still some of that about today. It crops up here in this place too. I have no problem with any language, However I do often have a problem with too many of the attitudes of quite a number of the Irish speakers I have encountered.

Wibbs

Powerhouse wrote: »

Er, that's precisely what being an official language is about. It is not meant to reflect the number of speakers. It reflects the languages recognised and promoted at official level. Less than 1 per cent of Swiss speak the Romansh dialects yet it is an official language.

Does it get the funding Irish gets?

Galician has semi-official status even with the EU and it doesn't even have an agreed official standard.

Neither did Irish until recently enough, but Galician doesn't get the funding nor the cultural baggage all too often attached to Irish.

Quite why you draw a distinction between first and second national languages I'm not sure. What practical difference does that make?

It makes a practical difference to the coffers of this country, when it's official status means we have to pay millions out in it's support in translating EU documents that a handful will end up reading. It is objectively farcical.

You don't like minorites very much do you?

Low blow in fairness and utterly daft with it. Exactly the type of argument I've heard before from the pro Irish lobby and it helps no one. Says more about you than me really. I have no problem with minorities of any hue. Indeed I would fight for their rights while many would hide behind their women's skirts, but I do object to a minority deciding what the majority should feel about their own identity.

dlofnep

The basque language movement is a brilliant example of how a language that was once faded in society, can be revived and become a relevant aspect of modern day society. The Basque people have embraced their language, while still holding onto Spanish.

General Zod

Irish people have forgotten the repression of their culture, the Basque haven't.

An Fear Aniar

Powerhouse wrote: »

Which part of "we should revamp the curriculum completely" do you have difficulty understanding?

You're still thinking in terms of "school Irish" as opposed to "caint an phobail".

The thinking in the old days was: English replaced Irish because it was the language of the establishment and you needed English to get a good job, so they tried to artificially create demand for Irish in the same way. It's a total failure, it only causes resentment.

If a strategy is proven over decades to be a miserable failure, would it not be logical to do something different? First step in saving Irish is to abolish the teaching of it in schools.

It seems counter-intuitive but it's the right strategy.

.

dlofnep

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

If a strategy is proven over decades to be a miserable failure, would it not be logical to do something different? First step in saving Irish is to abolish the teaching of it in schools.

The strategy has not failed - The method has failed. At least one subject should be taught through Irish, along with more focus on conversation in actual Irish class would remedy this. The logical step is to do something different, but your idea of doing something different is harmful to the language.

The difference is - you're quick to kick Irish in education to the curb. That is a negative spin on the language. The positive thing to do instead of scrapping it would be to analyze why the curriculum is not working..

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

1) I never said it wasn't, but we were talking about Irish schools, not the education system.

2) Actually it was meant as a joke, but anyway. In any case you could argue there is a bias as most would be dubious to say Irish actually has no relevance for them, lest they guilty for not promoting a sense of culture.

3) But it's not a ridiculous argument, what you're actually saying is that just because you don't do something doesn't mean you can't support it. Cool, but then the doing of it in the languages case is the crux of the matter. If say as an extreme only 1000 people spoke Irish in this country and 99.9% of the rest supported that, fine but it would hardly be worthy of being considered anything like a useful language, a part of our inclusive culture, or a language worthwhile of government support.

4) Again apples and oranges and circular with it. I can support something and it can have little or no effect on my life. OK fine, but something that is supposed to be an intrinsic part of my culture? The charities one actually made me laugh as it is more correct in a lot of ways. People will say they support Irish like they support charities. It's easy to do so, rather than actually work in a charity or speak irish. Bad enough for charities, but pretty dismal for the support of something so intrinsic as language.

5) Therefore to all intents and purposes Irish is not our indigenous language and at this time in our history is as much a cultural language imposed on us from on high as english was in the past.

6) I agree, but I shouldn't have to be taxed to subsidise fixing your car either, or taxed to prop up a bad mechanic who consistently leaves your car in disrepair.

7) The day Kilmainham gaol no longer has cultural resonance or value and gets in the way of a something that does, it will be razed or fall into ruin. It may never happen, but it could. It has less resonance now than it did say 50 years ago. In 500 years, in a 1000 years?

8) I agree funny enough, but much of the problem with the irish language was that all too often it went hand in hand with just such a culturally strait jacketed notion of Irishness. If you weren't an Irish speaking, GAA supporting, trad music afficionado, suckling your baby bare titted at the cross roads, you weren't quite "Irish" enough. There is still some of that about today. It crops up here in this place too. I have no problem with any language, However I do often have a problem with too many of the attitudes of quite a number of the Irish speakers I have encountered.

1) Not true you were talkig specifically about Gaelscoileanna and their "ethos" which you have since failed to define.

2) On what do you base the view that "most would be dubious to say Irish actually has no relevance for them, lest they guilty for not promoting a sense of culture". It sounds like a convenient speculation to me.

3) You are using difficult to nail down terms like culture which I have not used so if you are discussing this with me I'd prefer if we stayed with mutually agreed definitions. All I have said in the abstract is that people are entitled to register support for something without having to dedicate their lives to it. You seem to agree except in the case of the Irish language. Inventing hypothetical figures doesn't alter the argument.

4) So you accept that we did not choose to speak English? That's progress at least. Of course it's easier to support a charity than work in it. Of course it is easier to support the promotion of a language than learn it. That's exactly what I have been saying, but unlike you (in the case of the Irish language) I don't suggest that such support is null and void if someone does not take the time to go and learn the language.

"Something as intrinsic as language"? Intrinsic to what? People either want to learn it or they don't. And you can leave the apples and oranges nonsense out of it.

5) What a load of ahistorical gibberish! (Can I do the "howlin" now?!!) Irish was banned from schools by the British. That's how you impose a language over another. If you feel threatend by the harmless attempts to promote Irish these days God help you.

Incidentally I didn't ask you the past perfect of that verb. I just made reference to the fact that most "choosers" of English would not know it - or to be more precise - what it was. Good googling though.

6) What has your taxes got to do with anything? I was making the point that apathy is the greatest decision-maker known to man.

7) Indeed, but it will hardly be demolished just because a few Chinese people turn up. So why are you referring to them in relation to Irish language policy?

8) This is the most telling paragraph you have written as the mask has finally slipped. I cannot help you with the old cultural self-loathing i'm afraid!

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

1) Does it get the funding Irish gets?

2) Neither did Irish until recently enough, but Galician doesn't get the funding nor the cultural baggage all too often attached to Irish.

3) It makes a practical difference to the coffers of this country, when it's official status means we have to pay millions out in it's support in translating EU documents that a handful will end up reading. It is objectively farcical.

4) Low blow in fairness and utterly daft with it. Exactly the type of argument I've heard before from the pro Irish lobby and it helps no one. Says more about you than me really. I have no problem with minorities of any hue. Indeed I would fight for their rights while many would hide behind their women's skirts, but I do object to a minority deciding what the majority should feel about their own identity.

1) I have idea what funding any language gets not even Irish. Nor do I know if the Swiss would use Irish as a guide.

2) You are the only one here attaching cultural baggage to Irish - I'm simply arguing for its right to exist and be supported.

3) But God, this is Clicheville Grand Central Station. What makes you think this would differ if it was the second national language? Do we not produce enormous amounts of official reports that nobody reads in English too? As Eamon Ó Cuiv never tires of saying, why not just put everything up on the web?

4) Low blow? Fair comment more like. Your entire argument has had its only consistency and coherence in its majoritarian outlook - if the majority is not in favour of something it shouldn't happen. I merely joined the dots, that's all. If you are not comfortable about your own identity that's your own issue really. I'm sure nobody else cares.

jdivision

dlofnep wrote: »

So it's snobbery to speak in another language? What? Where did you get the logic for that one?

It's snobbery to only converse in Irish to fellow people who went to Gaescoilenna and ignore everybody else who might want to try. A friend of mine does the same thing and refuses to converse in Irish with another friend, despite the fact he went to adult courses to try to improve and made a real effort. Therein lies the snobbery

dlofnep

jdivision wrote: »

It's snobbery to only converse in Irish to fellow people who went to Gaescoilenna and ignore everybody else who might want to try. A friend of mine does the same thing and refuses to converse in Irish with another friend, despite the fact he went to adult courses to try to improve and made a real effort. Therein lies the snobbery

And what has that to do with me considering I started up a conversational group in my city for that exact purpose - allowing for people with all levels of Irish to get together and learn from each other?

Wibbs

General Zod wrote: »

Irish people have forgotten the repression of their culture, the Basque haven't.

Are you serious? Damn near every time some example of Irish culture, or talk of the past comes up on this forum, at least 2 or 3 come along with the usual "the engerlish repressed us you know?" rhetoric. Thankfully it's getting lesser with time and confidence in ourselves as a nation and a people, but it's still there.

Anyhoo,

Powerhouse wrote:

1) Not true you were talkig specifically about Gaelscoileanna and their "ethos" which you have since failed to define.

Yes I was and you brought other educational establishments into it. The ethos of Irish schools, above and beyond the promotion of the language through the medium of Irish also has an exclusive tag to it. Whether consciously or not, it feeds into that and fosters elitism. To be fair to some in the movement they have tried to tackle that, but it is there in many of these schools.

2) On what do you base the view that "most would be dubious to say Irish actually has no relevance for them, lest they guilty for not promoting a sense of culture". It sounds like a convenient speculation to me.

Not really, it's just as much speculation to suggest those who pledge support for Irish actually mean it in any concrete way. The proof as always is in the pudding when you look at how many actually speak it.

3) You are using difficult to nail down terms like culture which I have not used so if you are discussing this with me I'd prefer if we stayed with mutually agreed definitions.

I don't see how the notion of culture much espoused in the cause and discussion of the value of Irish is giving you such difficulty. It's part and parcel of it.

All I have said in the abstract is that people are entitled to register support for something without having to dedicate their lives to it. You seem to agree except in the case of the Irish language. Inventing hypothetical figures doesn't alter the argument.

I agree but to take your point about mutually agreed definitions, I don't consider support in the case of trad music, soccer and elton john the same thing as the reconstruction and support of a language so I'm not alone in throwing around hypothetical figures. Very few of us can write songs like elton, nor bend it like beckham, nor play the tin whistle, but pretty much all of us communicate in a language, so why are we not communicating in Irish, so again we're back to comparing citrus and pomacous fruit.

4) So you accept that we did not choose to speak English? That's progress at least.

Never said any differently so don't raise the flag and salute just yet.

Of course it's easier to support a charity than work in it. Of course it is easier to support the promotion of a language than learn it. That's exactly what I have been saying, but unlike you (in the case of the Irish language) I don't suggest that such support is null and void if someone does not take the time to go and learn the language.

I can support Tibetan goat herders, but until such times as I do something actively about it, it is opinion and rhetoric and is pretty much null and void.

"Something as intrinsic as language"? Intrinsic to what?

It's purpose. You know, communication.

People either want to learn it or they don't.

I agree and it seems most don't, so ask why?

And you can leave the apples and oranges nonsense out of it.

Yes miss/sir. I will if you leave elton john out of it. Fair trade I'd say.

5) What a load of ahistorical gibberish! (Can I do the "howlin" now?!!) Irish was banned from schools by the British. That's how you impose a language over another. If you feel threatend by the harmless attempts to promote Irish these days God help you.

Have you ever heard of the idea of the question of degree and you accused me of being black and white? Imposition is a question of degree. No of course english was not banned, but Irish has been imposed on us as a nation since the foundation of the state. For noble cultural reasons no doubt, but it has been. It was required for entry to certain universities, the civil service, the armed forces, the law etc. It was woefully taught and rammed down our throats in school and our taxes have been paying for this since the foundation of the state. If it had worked at least it would have been a successful imposition, but it hasn't or we wouldn't be having this conversation on so many levels.

Incidentally I didn't ask you the past perfect of that verb. I just made reference to the fact that most "choosers" of English would not know it - or to be more precise - what it was. Good googling though.

Ooh get her/him. Easily baited I must say.

6) What has your taxes got to do with anything? I was making the point that apathy is the greatest decision-maker known to man.

Our taxes have been squandered on something that hasn't worked and isn't working. Again if it had and it was, we wouldnt even be having this conversation. How many have gone through our education system and ended up with fluency in the subject? Far from apathetic I am when considering the waste of time and resources over the course of nearly a century. Even the Irish language schools have largely pulled themselves up by the bootstraps.

7) Indeed, but it will hardly be demolished just because a few Chinese people turn up. So why are you referring to them in relation to Irish language policy?

I didn't, you did re new realities. Try to at least keep up. My point was imply that times change, cultures and the languages of those cultures change. What was considered important yesterday is often considered unimportant tomorrow. That goes for language too. Minority languages are dying out worldwide, with the odd blip of restoration(former soviet bloc etc).

8) This is the most telling paragraph you have written as the mask has finally slipped. I cannot help you with the old cultural self-loathing i'm afraid!:D

Maybe you're reading a tad too much into it in your fervour. Actually I like trad music. I support it if you will...

1) I have idea what funding any language gets not even Irish. Nor do I know if the Swiss would use Irish as a guide.

Avoiding the point. I've seen figures quoted between 500 millions a year to nearly a billion. IT's actually hard to pin down exactly the expenditure. That's a lot of taxpayers money and in my opinion a waste.

2) You are the only one here attaching cultural baggage to Irish - I'm simply arguing for its right to exist and be supported.

So are you honestly trying to tell me that the Irish language doesn't have cultural baggage attached? Jeez it's one of the calling cards of the pro Irish language brigade, "It's our cullllltuuure!!"

3) But God, this is Clicheville Grand Central Station. What makes you think this would differ if it was the second national language? Do we not produce enormous amounts of official reports that nobody reads in English too? As Eamon Ó Cuiv never tires of saying, why not just put everything up on the web?

It would differ if we weren't spending the money on silly notions attaching importance to Irish for our european neighbours. It would have been better spent elsewhere, including on the language itself I also agree we spend daft amounts of money on official reports no one reads. For the most part you could write them in Hieratic script for all the good they do. I'm just suggesting throwing good money after bad is hardly wise.

4) Low blow? Fair comment more like. Your entire argument has had its only consistency and coherence in its majoritarian outlook - if the majority is not in favour of something it shouldn't happen. I merely joined the dots, that's all. If you are not comfortable about your own identity that's your own issue really. I'm sure nobody else cares.

Ooooh get her/him again.:D I am not saying if the majority is not in favour it shouldn't happen. I'm saying that the resources should be relevant and relative and focused to the task at hand. The history of Irish and it's success or failure, shows it hasn't been.

dlofnep

I agree and it seems most don't, so ask why?

Based on what info? Show me proof for where most people in Ireland don't want to learn the Irish language.

K4t

Acid_Violet wrote: »

A lot of people are resentful about the fact that we get a minute percentage of our grade increased because we do the exams in Irish.

http://examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=ca&sc=im

However this minute addition is completely justified. For foreign languages the listening and reading comprehensions are written as intended to be answered in English, so it's easier to translate the German answer into English that into Irish, for example. Also, trying to learn off science and business terms in Irish is not easy.

Then do the exams like the majority of students ffs!

That argument about it being harder to undertsnad the questions doesn't hold up I'm afraid. You are choosing to sit the exams through irish. Nobody is forcing you etc. If it's too hard tfor you then that should be your tough luck. This bonus points criac is bull****.

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

but to take your point about mutually agreed definitions, I don't consider support in the case of trad music, soccer and elton john the same thing as the reconstruction and support of a language so I'm not alone in throwing around hypothetical figures. Very few of us can write songs like elton, nor bend it like beckham, nor play the tin whistle, but pretty much all of us communicate in a language, so why are we not communicating in Irish,

I haven't the remotest notion what hypothetical figures I was throwing around - perhaps you could point them out. Nothing else new in what you say except this interesting question I have highlighted. What a hell of a good question. You should have said earlier you could communicate in the language (forget a language - it was Irish, not high German I had in mind when I made those comparisons). Bheinn lánsásta an t-ábhar cainte a phlé gan bhéarla a usáid as seo amach, mar sin má tá fonn ortsa léim istigh.

Riamfada

Im glad I got outa this!

dlofnep

Welcome back Grimes.

ztoical

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

The parents on the Aran islands speak Irish to the kids and the kids reply in English so.... guthanna in éag.

When were you last out on the islands? cus last time I was out I didn't see that, all my friends kids spoke to me in Irish. One of my friends is one of the primary school teachers and she has two polish kids in her class that speak perfect Irish and Polish and very little english.

Foinse closing is more a reflection on the state of the printing/publishing industry and not the state of the irish language.

Acid_Violet

K4t wrote: »

Then do the exams like the majority of students ffs!

Always good to see an open-minded comment so eloquently expressed.....

That argument about it being harder to undertsnad the questions doesn't hold up I'm afraid.

You're right. In fact that wasn't the argument I was making. The exams are written in English and then translated into Irish. The examiners intend on the exam papers being unambiguous and straight-forward (for the student who has done their work.) But when you're meant to translate the German word for 'holiday rep' into Irish, there is no direct translation, you have to fiddle around with different words till you get the most accurate translation, which inevitably wastes time.

Tbh, you seem to be very closed-minded about this but if you'd done it you'd know all about it. But you probably think that me saying that is only Gaeilgeoir snobbery on my part......

You are choosing to sit the exams through irish. Nobody is forcing you etc. If it's too hard tfor you then that should be your tough luck.

It's not too hard for me, it'd harder for everyone due to the reason I've given above.

This bonus points criac is bull****.

The minute difference that the bonus points makes (see link in my original post) makes up for the minute disadvantage students face when doing exams which were originally set in another language.

Bandit12

Good riddence

K4t

Acid_Violet wrote: »

The minute difference that the bonus points makes (see link in my original post) makes up for the minute disadvantage students face when doing exams which were originally set in another language.

I understand where you're coming from tbh but I just disagree with the whole thing. I don't mind there being the option to do the exam through Irish but the allocation of the bonus points does annoy me, therefore the option should be removed, English is the main language of the country and all students should sit the exam through English. Equality!

JC 2K3

There is equality. Anyone can sit any exam through Irish and get bonus points if they wish.

Why more students don't learn a few terms and sit, for example, the maths exam through Irish, I don't know.

K4t

JC 2K3 wrote: »

There is equality. Anyone can sit any exam through Irish and get bonus points if they wish.

Why more students don't learn a few terms and sit, for example, the maths exam through Irish, I don't know.

Eh, not everyone lives in the gaelthacht. Not everyone is brought up in Irish speaking households. Not everyone has access to irish speaking primary and secondary schools. Not everyone has the ability to speak two languages fluently. Of course there is inequality! Saying otherwise is just being ignorant. Kind of like irish speakers are ignorant about the language being dead.

JC 2K3

I don't live in the Gaeltacht, nor was I brought up in an Irish speaking household. I did have access to an Irish speaking secondary school, which I attended, but I think they're widespread enough to render your point about access moot.

As for not everyone having the ability to speak two languages fluently - I lol'd. The whole point of the Leaving Cert is to separate people based on academic ability across a broad range of subjects.

K4t

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I don't live in the Gaeltacht, nor was I brought up in an Irish speaking household. I did have access to an Irish speaking secondary school, which I attended, but I think they're widespread enough to render your point about access moot.

They're not.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

As for not everyone having the ability to speak two languages fluently - I lol'd. The whole point of the Leaving Cert is to separate people based on academic ability across a broad range of subjects.

I lol'ed. Maybe in theory, but in reality it's nothing more than an over hyped memory test.

Acid_Violet

K4t wrote: »

Eh, not everyone lives in the gaelthacht. Not everyone is brought up in Irish speaking households. Not everyone has access to irish speaking primary and secondary schools. Not everyone has the ability to speak two languages fluently. Of course there is inequality! Saying otherwise is just being ignorant. Kind of like irish speakers are ignorant about the language being dead.

Not everyone makes the effort?

EDIT: It's ignorant to say that the language isn't dead? It's not dead to me! I take offense to being called 'ignorant' about the fact that my second language is alive to me, a language that I use and I like! Dead to you, fair enough, but don't go calling me ignorant for speaking and liking this language!

Acid_Violet

K4t wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from tbh but I just disagree with the whole thing. I don't mind there being the option to do the exam through Irish but the allocation of the bonus points does annoy me, therefore the option should be removed

Why does the allocation of bonus points annoy you so? Just the idea of it? Do you not see how it's not an unfair advantage but a way to balance a slight disadvantage?

English is the main language of the country and all students should sit the exam through English. Equality!

Even the Polish, Lithuanians, Chinese and other nationalities who normally sit a literature paper in their mother-language rather than in English?

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

Based on what info? Show me proof for where most people in Ireland don't want to learn the Irish language.

Eh the simple fact that they don't would be a fairly obvious one. YOu can call it apathy all you want, but most don't speak it. So either the Irish have a built in genetic apathy, unlike the basques, the catalans, the flemish, the former satellite states of the soviet union etc, or they simply have no real, practical interest beyond the abstract.

Powerhouse wrote:

I haven't the remotest notion what hypothetical figures I was throwing around - perhaps you could point them out.

Elton John and premier league footballists and such. Figures do not always indicate numbers.

Nothing else new in what you say except this interesting question I have highlighted. What a hell of a good question. You should have said earlier you could communicate in the language (forget a language - it was Irish, not high German I had in mind when I made those comparisons). Bheinn lánsásta an t-ábhar cainte a phlé gan bhéarla a usáid as seo amach, mar sin má tá fonn ortsa léim istigh.

Sorry ted/tedess, ease off the oul ego there, I was referring to the general "we" not you and me. In any case, in the words of blackadder, "no speako dago", so even if your point scoring had merit, it would be lost on me, a fellow Irish person who doesn't understand you. Says much about the "irish" language as a cultural entity, as a practical entity when the majority of people reading that line could pick out one or two words and little more. Oh sure you will say I'm being majoritististists, but I prefer to look at the reality. As an intellectual pursuit I say grand, as a hobby or interest I say grand, as a way to preserve something I say grand, I don't say grand when millions are wasted on it year after year for decades, when those resources would be better placed in other more practical and fruitful avenues(including the Irish language BTW).

Acid_Violet wrote:

Even the Polish, Lithuanians, Chinese and other nationalities who normally sit a literature paper in their mother-language rather than in English?

Well obviously, unless you want to create language ghettos as well. Whatever is the vernacular, should be the examining language, regardless of ones origins if that is the country you choose to sit the exam. Whether that be french, mandarin, or english. Obviously training in said vernacular is paramount, but I can't rock up to do the Italian equivalent of the LC and expect them to translate into what happens to my primary method of communication. Utterly daft to think otherwise.

Wibbs

K4t wrote: »

I lol'ed. Maybe in theory, but in reality it's nothing more than an over hyped memory test.

Not far off. One of my relatives went to an Irish school in the 50's. Did well in her exams too. Couldn't speak a word of it afterward or now. Learning by rote essentially and in that context useless.

dlofnep

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh the simple fact that they don't would be a fairly obvious one. YOu can call it apathy all you want, but most don't speak it. So either the Irish have a built in genetic apathy, unlike the basques, the catalans, the flemish, the former satellite states of the soviet union etc, or they simply have no real interest beyond the abstract.

Terrible logic.

They don't because they can't. They can't because the curriculum is flawed, and because there are either no provisions to learn it outside of school, or because it's costly to do so.

While some genuinely don't want to learn it, if I could count the amount of times I met people who told me that they would love to learn the language, I'd be a rich man. Almost everyone in our local comments on the language anytime they hear me speak it, often joining in with the cúpla focal they have.

You're entrenched in your opinion and that's about the bones of it. You can't accept the reality that people are genuinely interested in the language, a large mass of people - but just like any other adult, find it next to impossible to learn and lack the provisions to do so.

JC 2K3

K4t wrote: »

I lol'ed. Maybe in theory, but in reality it's nothing more than an over hyped memory test.

That's an entirely different debate and a complete tangent which doesn't serve to validate your point in the slightest. A few extra marks for exhibiting bilingual ability in a series of examinations testing ability in a broad range of subjects being unfair because some people lack the ability to do so? Really?

jdivision

dlofnep wrote: »

And what has that to do with me considering I started up a conversational group in my city for that exact purpose - allowing for people with all levels of Irish to get together and learn from each other?

you're funny. you personalise when it suits and generalise when it suits.

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

Terrible logic.

Not really.

They don't because they can't. They can't because the curriculum is flawed, and because there are either no provisions to learn it outside of school, or because it's costly to do so.

There are more than a few examples where languages were kept alive and flourished where the obstacles were far greater including threats to personal safety. So I call BS on that, unless the irish are naturally apathetic or weak, neither of which is anywhere close to my take on us.

While some genuinely don't want to learn it, if I could count the amount of times I met people who told me that they would love to learn the language, I'd be a rich man. Almost everyone in our local comments on the language anytime they hear me speak it, often joining in with the cúpla focal they have.

Talk is cheap and that's the point. There are enough resources around that someone could learn the language if they so chose. We are not living in a third world dictatorship where Irish is outlawed. There are courses all over the place. The facilities are there, the resources are there. Every major college has an Irish faculty, there are apparently lots of people like yourself who wish to support and promote the language, yet how many of those same people in the pub question you further about actually putting their money where their cupla focal is/are. You say that its costly to do so? Yet many many more men and women pay for gym membership that they barely use than sign up to Irish courses. People spend fortunes on other things. a plasma TV would pay for enough Irish courses, yet Irish is apparently failing due to lack of provisions and personal finance? More government money is spent on the promotion of the language than simple fitness, yet there are more gym goers than Irish speakers or people willing to learn it. Give me an ever loving break.

You're entrenched in your opinion and that's about the bones of it.

As are you and I suspect even moreso than me. The 32 county Ireland bit speaks volumes. To me at least.

You can't accept the reality that people are genuinely interested in the language, a large mass of people - but just like any other adult, find it next to impossible to learn and lack the provisions to do so.

Where were the provisions for the latvians, or basques or flemish or polish or any number of other nations and peoples that chose to keep their language alive and vital, without propping up by government coffers? How long do you think Irish would last if all government support was removed? How long would TG4 last without the 20 odd millions per year, how long the Gaeltacht? How long the Irish schools? No time at all if the people didn't want it. Very long if they did, so pardon me if I don't regard those you bump into in life and in pubs as giving you anything more than lip service. A lip service that is part and parcel of my original point, practically useless.

dlofnep

jdivision wrote: »

you're funny. you personalise when it suits and generalise when it suits.

I personalised because you questioned me on a personal level. What has that to do with anything? You stated that there was an element of snobbery, I stated and showed otherwise.

conchubhar1

Stephen wrote: »

So did I. Damn recession, dey took ar fonzies.

ár bhfonzies!!!!!!!

conchubhar1

Grimes wrote: »

Well if they tried to appeal to the English speakers of the world to buy their Irish product then they might stay in business.

they could call it the source and use english and maybe attack the hip hop magazine of similar name
ach beidh fadhb acu tar eis sin

ah bilingual puns

conchubhar1

Delta Kilo wrote: »

It is time we stopped flogging this dead horse!

that has been the statement by people for a good 1000 years
and very strong for the past 200 years

yet it is still here..........

conchubhar1

Grimes wrote: »

My personal experience with Irish speakers in UCD is that it is a very elitist preoccupation which has sadly done more damage to it for me than years of poor standard Dublin schooling. I would be more than happy to see the language decline to the remit of academics.

I agree that TG4 does have some very good historical programs but afaik are not the majority of these independent sound & vision productions? I may be wrong on that however.

edit: Ive also been told when asking about why people speak irish and are very miltant about its preservation is that alot of it harks back to anti-British sentiment despite having very limited knoweldge of irish history.

bull**** - the irish language in ucd couldnt be more opening to everybody

the speed dating and the peilfield were open to everyone and only asked you try to use irish......


nice generilisation on the anti british thing

Nothing pisses me off more than people who think that Pro Irish language = anti British(english), they don't

Language is one thing, culture is another and politics is another matter altogether!!!

conchubhar1

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

It's not just Foinse, most Irish language organs make no pretence at journalism and are particularly biased against Israel. Beo.ie regularly publishes rabid anti-Israeli propaganda that bears no resemblance to journalism, like this rant here:

http://www.beo.ie/?page=ar_na_saolta_seo&content_id=880

I wouldn't buy it, whatever language it's printed in, it's in the same class as the Socialist Worker.

.

if you are a rational thinker, and not jewish, you would be appalled at what israel has done and doing......

dlofnep

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing pisses me off more than people who think that Pro Irish language = anti British(english), they don't

Language is one thing, culture is another and politics is another matter altogether!!!

Yup.

While I am Republican myself (not anti-english), I keep politics entirely out of our conversational group to allow for anyone who likes it to just come along and have fun.

conchubhar1

the best thing to add to that is try not discussing irish - besides questions on grammar and words obviously

i mean discussing the fate of the irish language is discussed too much while using irish

Powerhouse

Wibbs wrote: »

1) Elton John and premier league footballists and such. Figures do not always indicate numbers.

2) Sorry ted/tedess, ease off the oul ego there, I was referring to the general "we" not you and me. In any case, in the words of blackadder, "no speako dago", so even if your point scoring had merit, it would be lost on me, a fellow Irish person who doesn't understand you.

1) These are words not figures. I asked you to indicate where I used figures. You appear to be having some difficulty even with English at this stage.

2) You always know lads are grasping when they start quoting the telly! You are the one that said a language is no bother to communicate in as opposed to song-writing or playing football at a very high level - I have argued otherwise - that it takes time/dedication/opportunity (which is why I have been saying it is being - deliberately - unrealistic to expect all supporters of the language to achieve proficiency). Yet, when it is put to you you cannot communicate in the language, so perhaps you'd leave that piece of empty rhetoric to one side from now on? You have proved my point for me, we don't need to labour it any more.

I can't comment in any great sense on the general 'we' as it's so bloody vague but I would direct you to my earlier comments on apathy. (In fact if you read my posts with a little attention rather than getting a rush of blood and constructing a reply without reading them properly you would hardly need to reply at all as all of this has been covered already)

I meet many many people who can communicate comfortably in Irish. I know many people I have never spoken to in any other language. I also know English, Australian, American, Scottish, Dutch and Spanish people who are fluent Irish speakers. It is inappropriate for you to generalise in that sense because you clearly have no experience in the area and all of this goes out completely under your radar which is why you are using such sweeping unsubstantiated generalisations.

That said, the reasons many people such as yourself cannot communicate in the language is (and I have written this more than once in this thread) - leaving aside those reared speaking it - is that it is not taught as a spoken language in schools. And for that same reason it requires significant time and investment to achieve fluency, or at least that it what I found in my case. You are the ultimate high-stool merchant - you say it's no bother yet you cannot do it yourself.

3) See number 1 please and point out the figures you claim I used.

An Fear Aniar

Nobody's forcing you to learn Irish anyway.... oh, wait....


.

Sir Humphrey

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

Nobody's forcing you to learn Irish anyway.... oh, wait....


.

'Oh wait' what? The rule that you had to pass Irish to pass the Leaving Cert was removed in about 1973 or 1974. I had people in my Leaving Cert (1980s) class who didn't sit Irish. Yes, not doing so probably shut off potential avenues to them (though this is a slighly irrelevant point since they were brutal academically in the first place) but at the end of the day nobody really gave a sh*t that they weren't doing it. That was their problem. Force didn't enter into it.