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Fair cuts for 2010 budget??
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Taxipete29 wrote: »Anybody who still lives in the family home and gets the full job seekers allowance recieves it because they have the necessary contributions. If they didnt they would be means tested and recieve very little. If these young people didnt live at home they would be entitled to rent allowance and possibly other benefits.
While I dont totally agree that unemployed young people should be getting €200 drinking money per week, but I dont agree either that the family should be made to support them. Further to that by, living at home the welfare system is in effect saved the burden of lining some landlords pocket while these young people live it up in their own party pad.
I agree with this, the people who do stay at home are actually saving the taxpayer additional costs like rent allowance. While I do not agree with drinking money, these people could possibly add more onto the social welfare bill if they wanted to..
Anyway if someone has paid their stamps, surely they are entitled to this? Besides if you want to find out who is willing to get up of their arse, use the incentive of not giving them the full dole payout unless they are willing to do something for it!!0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »Providing a bus service to remote parts of the country is a social responsibilty.
Why?Taxipete29 wrote: »As for criticising people for living in remote areas, just repeat that statement out loud to yourself and you might just realise how ridiculous it sounds
Im not criticising people living in remote areas; Im criticising people who live in remote areas and expect city dwellers to pick up the tab on services.0 -
I don't know if cutting the dole is the way forward..
Most of the people who claim it these days have been unfortunate to loose their jobs recently. So the €204 you get weekly has to be spread very thinly..
I was unemployed for six months last year So I know how thin it has to become.
I had a personal loan,credit card,VHI, a car and other expenses.
SO work it out,
Loan 400pm
Credit Card minimum payment 80pm
VHI 65pm
Car tax fuel insurance 200 est.
204 a week for a month is €816- 745(est cost)= 71 for food and unexpected costs... Not really much is it!
I totally agree that costs need to be saved somewhere, I dont agree that Guards and Front Line Health Staff should get the touch.. But the pen pushers needs to be clipped,I think that TD salary should be on a scale of Say €60k for a year with an increase y-o-y and then when a new Dail is elected they all start back at €60 and so it continues.#
A group should be set up to look at where money is being thrown away and stop that..
I heard a story of a man who three years ago built a massive garage with office space attached, He was asked this year how business was going, his reply was "I'm keeping above water thanks to the health service" they paid rent on the Office space and have not set foot into it at a cost of €2million per year.There is far too much money being dished out..
I also agree that we are not taking full advantage of the downturn, The government should get all the infastructure under control and get value for money..
Don't allow anymore Housing development to go ahead for at least 5 years until the current backlog of houses has been shifted.
But since I'm not in power this'll hardly happen.:cool:0 -
Im not criticising people living in remote areas; Im criticising people who live in remote areas and expect city dwellers to pick up the tab on services.
Everyone pays taxes, including those who live in rural areas, to think that those who live in the city are alone in paying for rural transport is not entirely accurate.I don't know if cutting the dole is the way forward..
Most of the people who claim it these days have been unfortunate to loose their jobs recently. So the €204 you get weekly has to be spread very thinly..
I was unemployed for six months last year So I know how thin it has to become.
I had a personal loan,credit card,VHI, a car and other expenses.
SO work it out,
Loan 400pm
Credit Card minimum payment 80pm
VHI 65pm
Car tax fuel insurance 200 est.
204 a week for a month is €816- 745(est cost)= 71 for food and unexpected costs... Not really much is it!
The purpose of the dole is to provide for the basic necessities in life; food, clothing, heating. It is not the role of the taxpayer to pay off loans and credit card repayments!0 -
Loan 400pm
Credit Card minimum payment 80pm
Is it the governments fault you racked up such debt?Spudmonkey wrote: »Everyone pays taxes, including those who live in rural areas, to think that those who live in the city are alone in paying for rural transport is not entirely accurate.
Well lets examine it. Firstly rural bus service s obviously cost more to run. Services such as water pipes gas supplies etc are more expensive in rural areas. Telephone lines/electricity lines are more expensive as there is a higher line length per house ratio.
Thats why I would say services should be charged on a usage basis, and those in the countryside should pay the cost of extra line maintenance etc. I'm saying this, btw, as someone who's family owns a "second home" in the country side.0 -
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Well lets examine it. Firstly rural bus service s obviously cost more to run. Services such as water pipes gas supplies etc are more expensive in rural areas. Telephone lines/electricity lines are more expensive as there is a higher line length per house ratio.
Thats why I would say services should be charged on a usage basis, and those in the countryside should pay the cost of extra line maintenance etc. I'm saying this, btw, as someone who's family owns a "second home" in the country side.
Thats fair enough, and I know that the majority of these services in rural areas probably run at a severe loss. But you can't have these areas regressing further into the dark ages while developments happen mainly in urban areas. Whats more but most of the countries wealth is located in the major cities, not in the countryside.
I think it's a bit unfair to penalise those who happen to live in these areas, cause the alternative of getting everyone to move to the city isn't really a runner. The only thing really is to see how its done in other countries as its probably done in a far more effective way than it is here.0 -
Spudmonkey and Turgon, You are both correct, It is not the governments responsibilty to pay my debts, but that is how I had to spread my unemployment benefit..I would rather pay off my debt in the best way that is possible to me..
I never recieved anything else from them,I dont believe in taking things for granted...
Being on the dole is not nice, Ask around!0 -
I have no doubt that it is not a nice place to be, especially those who are used to working all their lives and know nothing else. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who have built up debt, some probably far more than you.
Problem is though, the taxpayers who are struggling to pay off many of their own loans cannot be burdened with other peoples as well.
Hopefully you'll get it sorted out!0 -
I think the scope of this thread is very wide and there are already a few different debates going on at once
but anyway...
1. as i have said before whats needed in public sector is proper reform, allow managers to actual manage and be in a position to confront and deal with non and under performance...it is an issue that greatly frustrates the majority of public sector workers who do their work when such deadwood is allowed to get away with it
It is only a "job-for-life" because the system allows it to be, you can discipline (and fire) public servants but there is no support/incentive for this and as a result people decide its not worth the bother to tackle these people
2. The HSE and numbers of managers - ridiculous; re-allocate, allow to retire but whatever bring this into line
3. Public sector wages is always difficult to compare. Whats the private sector equivalent of a Garda? etc reduction in numbers in HSE, public sector agencies etc a far better long term solution to the pay bill
4. welfare costs have gone way out of control. Its clear that a universal child benefit has to change in some way but is it the right time to cut dole when so many are being laid off?0 -
Why?
Im not criticising people living in remote areas; Im criticising people who live in remote areas and expect city dwellers to pick up the tab on services.
Not everyone who lives in rural areas needs public transport. Those that do are usually the vulnerable in society ie old people who have probably contributed their fair share to the state coffers. These people may not own cars or be in a position to drive if they did. Then we have children we need to get to school and its not always possible for parents to be able to bring them as their jobs may some what interfere with that.
Your comment about a second home in the country is nonsense. Its different living somewhere to spending the odd weekend or a couple of summer months someplace. I have yet to meet someone who owns a second home in the country and doesnt own a car.0 -
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I don't know if cutting the dole is the way forward..
Most of the people who claim it these days have been unfortunate to loose their jobs recently. So the €204 you get weekly has to be spread very thinly..
I was unemployed for six months last year So I know how thin it has to become.
I had a personal loan,credit card,VHI, a car and other expenses.
SO work it out,
Loan 400pm
Credit Card minimum payment 80pm
VHI 65pm
Car tax fuel insurance 200 est.
204 a week for a month is €816- 745(est cost)= 71 for food and unexpected costs... Not really much is it!
I totally agree that costs need to be saved somewhere, I dont agree that Guards and Front Line Health Staff should get the touch.. But the pen pushers needs to be clipped,I think that TD salary should be on a scale of Say €60k for a year with an increase y-o-y and then when a new Dail is elected they all start back at €60 and so it continues.#
A group should be set up to look at where money is being thrown away and stop that..
I heard a story of a man who three years ago built a massive garage with office space attached, He was asked this year how business was going, his reply was "I'm keeping above water thanks to the health service" they paid rent on the Office space and have not set foot into it at a cost of €2million per year.There is far too much money being dished out..
I also agree that we are not taking full advantage of the downturn, The government should get all the infastructure under control and get value for money..
Don't allow anymore Housing development to go ahead for at least 5 years until the current backlog of houses has been shifted.
But since I'm not in power this'll hardly happen.:cool:
The first part of this comment is a prime example of how people have lost sight of the difference between what is needed in life and what is desired in life. We'd all would like to have private healthcare and we'd all like to have our own car, but these are not necessities of life that the government (or other taxpayers) should be paying for. IMO, a person on the dole should not feel they are entitled to continue to have VHI or to run a car as these are luxuries that many working people cannot afford. Arguing that the dole should not be cut because the dole is not enough for someone to afford to pay for private healthcare or to fuel their car is just plain ridiculous.0 -
Taxipete29 wrote: »Not everyone who lives in rural areas needs public transport. Those that do are usually the vulnerable in society ie old people who have probably contributed their fair share to the state coffers.
Firstly if you want to start talking about what people have contributed as a basis for what they receive then the whole idea of socialistic government falls.
Now, old people, vulnerable and all as they are, have made a choice to live in the countryside. What you are suggesting is that everyone else pays for this choice. I say not. Living somewhere is a choice made on pros and cons, and the government should not be there to give money to those who wish to live a specific sort of lifestyle.
Its a pattern that is echoed across the board. People make choices with their life - what career to start; whether or not to go to college; where to live - and if these choices end up badly for the person they expect the government to come in and fix it for them.
So surely, if the old lady was thinking responsibly that she wanted to go to town every Wednesday, she should have moved closer to said town?0 -
The first part of this comment is a prime example of how people have lost sight of the difference between what is needed in life and what is desired in life. We'd all would like to have private healthcare and we'd all like to have our own car, but these are not necessities of life that the government (or other taxpayers) should be paying for. IMO, a person on the dole should not feel they are entitled to continue to have VHI or to run a car as these are luxuries that many working people cannot afford. Arguing that the dole should not be cut because the dole is not enough for someone to afford to pay for private healthcare or to fuel their car is just plain ridiculous.
Quite right. And the very fact that they can is evidence that the dole should be reduced.
VHI is optional. And anyone who is fiscally responsible in their own lives should not saddle themselves with debt that they might conceivably not be able to pay off.0 -
Now, old people, vulnerable and all as they are, have made a choice to live in the countryside. What you are suggesting is that everyone else pays for this choice. I say not. Living somewhere is a choice made on pros and cons, and the government should not be there to give money to those who wish to live a specific sort of lifestyle.
Its a pattern that is echoed across the board. People make choices with their life - what career to start; whether or not to go to college; where to live - and if these choices end up badly for the person they expect the government to come in and fix it for them.
Damn right, you choose to live where you do and you should live with the consequences. Im down in Limerick, I see my tax money going into the Luas, Metro North and billion or so that the govt. spent on buying the toll bridge on the M50.
If old people want to live in the country let them. If people want to live in the Dublin I dont mind paying a few quid so that their lives will be easier! That right Turgon?
FFS :rolleyes:0 -
If old people want to live in the country let them. If people want to live in the Dublin I dont mind paying a few quid so that their lives will be easier! That right Turgon?
Go on and show me where I said that people outside Dublin should be paying for services in Dublin. Otherwise I fail to see the validity of your point.0 -
So surely, if the old lady was thinking responsibly that she wanted to go to town every Wednesday, she should have moved closer to said town?
And completely abandon her way of life. Many of these people know nothing else, what do you suggest? That she abandon her house or sell it to someone from the city because they can afford a car to get there.
If this can be done in less developed countries surely it can be done here too, I suppose she will have to pay for the fact she is breathing cleaner air too!Damn right, you choose to live where you do and you should live with the consequences. Im down in Limerick, I see my tax money going into the Luas, Metro North and billion or so that the govt. spent on buying the toll bridge on the M50
And your tax money hasn't gone towards anything in Limerick either? A bypass, shannon tunnel etc....0 -
So surely, if the old lady was thinking responsibly that she wanted to go to town every Wednesday, she should have moved closer to said town?Quite right. And the very fact that they can is evidence that the dole should be reduced.
One of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on here, followed by one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen on here.
a) by that token, everyone in Connemara should move to Galway City because they shop there once a week?
b) Because some people aren't stretched on the dole it should be cut for all? For every young lad who's left with a bit of beer/VHI/whatever money, there's a family who are down to one wage earner & still have a mortgage to pay.
All this standing on personal pedestals & deciding that those in different circumstances should be the ones to suffer make me sick.
As do all-sweeping generalisations such as "Johnny down the road's on the dole & still paying his VHI/ having a pint. Therefore all dole should be cut"0 -
a) by that token, everyone in Connemara should move to Galway City because they shop there once a week?
No. Please show me where I said that. Otherwise, stop reading things from my posts that simply arent there, and this includes familiarising yourself with the context of my post which you failed to do.
I said people who wish to go shopping in Galway, and have no proper means to get there and are unwilling to get a taxi and are unwilling to negotiate a lift off of a neighbour should move to Galway, instead of expecting the government to provide an expensive bus service.b) Because some people aren't stretched on the dole it should be cut for all? For every young lad who's left with a bit of beer/VHI/whatever money, there's a family who are down to one wage earner & still have a mortgage to pay.
Yes and they get extra benefits for dependants (including spouses) and mortgage aid on house loans. But I suppose you didnt want to think of that because it would contradict your point.All this standing on personal pedestals & deciding that those in different circumstances should be the ones to suffer make me sick.
Different circumstances? Im also unemployed. But I suppose in your perfect non-stereotyping stance on debate that fact never occured to you.Spudmonkey wrote: »And completely abandon her way of life.
Surely it an unsustainable way of life if it requires other people to pay for it?0 -
Turgon I think there is a fact you have to wake up, sometimes Governments spend money on things we dont like.
Also not everyone has a choice where they live. If you were born in a rural area, lived and WORKED there all your life and now suddenly find yourself retired and due to whatever reason unable to drive. Why the hell should you have to move to a city. Its a ridiculous notion to suggest you should.
The person who is on the dole and has VHI can now get rid of that in favour of a full medical card which will be funded by the government. People who advocate dropping benefits or just leaving people to fend for themselves in times of difficuly need to realise that one way or another the Government will end up picking up the tab. This is the country you live in. We have a welfare state. If you dont like it, you are free to move.0 -
Go on and show me where I said that people outside Dublin should be paying for services in Dublin. Otherwise I fail to see the validity of your point.Spudmonkey wrote: »And your tax money hasn't gone towards anything in Limerick either? A bypass, shannon tunnel etc....
My point is, we are all paying taxes! The people in the country (not just in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford) are just as entitled to a certain level of services and saying comments like "oh they chose to live there so fcuk them" is nothing short of arrogance!
One of the things this country needs to get back on its feet and to start attracting even spread of inward investment is a well developed public transport and services infrastructure. Otherwise all ivestments will be funnelled into Dublin and Cork and nobody else will get a look in.0 -
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Taxipete29 wrote: »Turgon I think there is a fact you have to wake up, sometimes Governments spend money on things we dont like.
So let me get this straight: Im saying that I think government spends money on things I dont like, and you tell me to wake up and realise same.Taxipete29 wrote: »If you were born in a rural area, lived and WORKED there all your life and now suddenly find yourself retired and due to whatever reason unable to drive. Why the hell should you have to move to a city. Its a ridiculous notion to suggest you should.
Now, for the third time, please outline where I said that.
Is it above posters here to read some context to the posts? My post was concerning an old lady who "relied" on a bus service that was costing everyone else money. My point was that she should get a taxi or otherwise find a lift and that if she couldnt/wouldnt she shouldnt expect us to pay for her trip in.Taxipete29 wrote: »The person who is on the dole and has VHI can now get rid of that in favour of a full medical card which will be funded by the government. People who advocate dropping benefits or just leaving people to fend for themselves in times of difficuly need to realise that one way or another the Government will end up picking up the tab.
How? So we reduce the dole and yet for some reason the government will still pay the same?Taxipete29 wrote: »This is the country you live in. We have a welfare state. If you dont like it, you are free to move.
Where to? My criteria being the lack of a welfare state.My point is, we are all paying taxes!
And my point is that you claimed I said something which I didnt, ie you put words in my mouth.The people in the country (not just in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford) are just as entitled to a certain level of services and saying comments like "oh they chose to live there so fcuk them" is nothing short of arrogance!
Why should they not pay for these services as they need them at the exact price they cost? Instead of getting their next door neighbour to foot the bill?0 -
Whats more Turgon is that people living in the west and paying taxes have seen little return in the case of infrastructure developments. The one thing that was planned and which was going to make a difference, the western rail corridor is most likely going to be scrapped.
I think a few busses out to the middle of no-where are the least these areas deserve. Like I've already said, this is a service I've seen in some of the most under-developed countries...0 -
a)No. Please show me where I said that. Otherwise, stop reading things from my posts that simply arent there, and this includes familiarising yourself with the context of my post which you failed to do.
I said people who wish to go shopping in Galway, and have no proper means to get there and are unwilling to get a taxi and are unwilling to negotiate a lift off of a neighbour should move to Galway, instead of expecting the government to provide an expensive bus service.
b)Yes and they get extra benefits for dependants (including spouses) and mortgage aid on house loans. But I suppose you didnt want to think of that because it would contradict your point.
c)Different circumstances? Im also unemployed. But I suppose in your perfect non-stereotyping stance on debate that fact never occured to you.
The difference in your actual words in ref a) and my interpretation of it are hardly miles apart. waffle about context is irrelevant. You've just re-stated your case.
Ref b) I don't receive, and was told I couldn't receive, any extra benefit for my spouse, or towards a mortgage if she worked >30 hrs per week. Perhaps you're aware of some benefits I'm not currently claiming? Or don't you want to think about that in case it contradicts your point?
c) Commiserations on being unemployed (assuming it's not through choice). Happily for you, you seem well able to cope with the (presumed) drop in income your household has suffered. However, many are not so fortunate & are living from one week to the next. But since you're managing, and some lad can afford to keep his VHI up, yeah, we should slash all benefits.
Funny enough, if you had advocated more means testing rather than draconian slashing, I would have been inclined to agree with you, as a method of reducing "unneccessary payments".0 -
Spudmonkey wrote: »Whats more Turgon is that people living in the west and paying taxes have seen little return in the case of infrastructure developments. The one thing that was planned and which was going to make a difference, the western rail corridor is most likely going to be scrapped. .
Havent they? May I speculate that the electricity maintenance bill per capita is far higher than in the East?
Either way, I would be in favour of federalisation of counties, and tax abilities being given to said counties so that these kind of questions need not even be posed.Spudmonkey wrote: »I think a few busses out to the middle of no-where are the least these areas deserve.
I know you do. I also know that, despite me being against it, you want me to, through the apparatus of the state, be forced to pay for it.0 -
The difference in your actual words in ref a) and my interpretation of it are hardly miles apart. waffle about context is irrelevant. You've just re-stated your case.
Ok lets make this really easy. I said:
You said:turgon wrote:people who wish to go shopping in Galway, and have no proper means to get there and are unwilling to get a taxi and are unwilling to negotiate a lift off of a neighbour should move to Galway, instead of expecting the government to provide an expensive bus service.a) by that token, everyone in Connemara should move to Galway City because they shop there once a week?
Do you still believe they are the same?Ref b) I don't receive, and was told I couldn't receive, any extra benefit for my spouse, or towards a mortgage if she worked >30 hrs per week.
Ok so you are complaining that people on the dole have families to support, you just forgot to mention that you are not the only one supporting them.
Not comfortably. But I consider these extras, such as being able to out on the weekend, unnecessaryc) Commiserations on being unemployed (assuming it's not through choice). Happily for you, you seem well able to cope with the (presumed) drop in income your household has suffered.0 -
Why should they not pay for these services as they need them at the exact price they cost? Instead of getting their next door neighbour to foot the bill?
So why did my tax money go into building the port tunnell, the widening of the Naas dual carriageway to 3 lanes, the acquisition of the M50 toll bridge, the widening of the M50 to 3/4 lanes, the upgrading of all the junctions on the M50? Why did I have to pay for all the investment that went into Temple Bar in rejuvinating the area just so that people in Dublin can get drunk and vomit on the street? Why do I have to pay for all the people in Ballymun to get new houses? Why is it that the people of Ireland pay taxes which go in some way shape or form through subsidies to Dublin Bus? Why is it that I am paying for the development of a fully integrated public transport system in Dublin by rail, light rail and metro?
I dont mind subsidising Dublin infrastructure as long as other regions are developed as well.
Doing what you think we should do, every region pays for its own is unsustainable in a country the size of Ireland. We pay taxes into a central fund that is divided out as the country needs. We are too small a country to set up a federal country with individual states.0 -
Ok lets make this really easy. I said:
You said:
Do you still believe they are the same?
Not 100%, but pretty much. I know a lot of people, myself not included, for whom the local bus is very much a required part of the infrastructure. Setting aside your patronising tone, you tell me - should the elderly in rural areas without a car (or maybe having lost the ability to drive) be dragged from their homes & put into care homes to save the townies subsidising a bus? A lot of these people have paid into the system for a long time, at the same rate as everyone else.
Ok so you are complaining that people on the dole have families to support, you just forgot to mention that you are not the only one supporting them.
I'm not complaining about anything. I'm saying that not everyone claiming a benefit is in the same financial situation.
Not comfortably. But I consider these extras, such as being able to out on the weekend, unnecessary
You won't find me advocating benefit money for socialising. But, again, while your dole money is presumably the same as mine/300,000 others, your financial situation is not.
I get by fine with what we have. As, apparently, do you. Others do not. Across the board benefit cuts will hurt those who can least afford them. That's why I'd suggest a greater degree of means testing instead.
multi-quoting not easy from here, trust the italics worked ok.0 -
So why did my tax money go into building the port tunnell, the widening of the Naas dual carriageway to 3 lanes, the acquisition of the M50 toll bridge, the widening of the M50 to 3/4 lanes, the upgrading of all the junctions on the M50? Why did I have to pay for all the investment that went into Temple Bar in rejuvinating the area just so that people in Dublin can get drunk and vomit on the street? Why do I have to pay for all the people in Ballymun to get new houses? Why is it that the people of Ireland pay taxes which go in some way shape or form through subsidies to Dublin Bus? Why is it that I am paying for the development of a fully integrated public transport system in Dublin by rail, light rail and metro?
I dont mind subsidising Dublin infrastructure as long as other regions are developed as well.
Doing what you think we should do, every region pays for its own is unsustainable in a country the size of Ireland. We pay taxes into a central fund that is divided out as the country needs. We are too small a country to set up a federal country with individual states.
you should invest to get a return for the economy, hence the infrastructure you mentioned, which is primarily about business moving around the country and allowing people get to work
the problems with traffic and public transport congestion in the greater Dublin area were evident and many projects were aimed at this but there are many similar projects in the other cities too but they are primarily about supporting work, jobs economy, etc
its those jobs that provide a large chunk of the taxes collected
the same issues are not generally replicated in rural areas
BTW most of the temple bar project was built privately using tax breaks rather than spending taxes0 -
you tell me - should the elderly in rural areas without a car (or maybe having lost the ability to drive) be dragged from their homes & put into care homes to save the townies subsidising a bus? A lot of these people have paid into the system for a long time, at the same rate as everyone else.
on you're right, thats exactly what he said should happen:rolleyes:
little less of the melo-drama perhaps0 -
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