Fair cuts for 2010 budget??

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

you should invest to get a return for the economy, hence the infrastructure you mentioned, which is primarily about business moving around the country and allowing people get to work

the problems with traffic and public transport congestion in the greater Dublin area were evident and many projects were aimed at this but there are many similar projects in the other cities too but they are primarily about supporting work, jobs economy, etc

its those jobs that provide a large chunk of the taxes collected

the same issues are not generally replicated in rural areas

BTW most of the temple bar project was built privately using tax breaks rather than spending taxes

I appreciate all that and thank you for bringing sense to this.

My point to Turgon is that Ireland has adopted a development strategy called the National Spatial Strategy. This is about developing infrastructure right across the country through "Gateways" and "Hubs". In order to develop the country and bring sustainable growth we need to invest in the country as a whole. And that means that we need to invest in Kerry, Clare, Sligo, Mayo and Leitrim as well as Dublin etc. This idea that we would set up a federal state made up of smaller states, each paying for its own development through the collection of state as well as federal taxes will not only diminsh our ability to attract inward investment (due to increased taxes and unjoin thinking) but will also further (over)develop existing gateways with bad planning to demise of both the rural and urban areas. We are too small a country to act as a federal state!

Developing the country along the proposed National Spatial Strategy is the way forward. I dont mind paying my tax money into that development proposal, its fair, its equitable and it is development for everyone, regardless of how many homes you own...

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

on you're right, thats exactly what he said should happen:rolleyes:

little less of the melo-drama perhaps

To be fair, it kind of was...

turgon wrote: »

Im not criticising people living in remote areas; Im criticising people who live in remote areas and expect city dwellers to pick up the tab on services.

turgon

big b wrote: »

It was the ultimate reality of what he said. I just wrapped it differently.

No; you put words in my mouth.

I just love the way people here just assume Im from Dublin, btw.

Anyway I have to go; we agree to disagree. bib b and Soldie believe that "society" should pay for bus services that are utterly unsustainable; Turgon believes people should pay for exactly what they get.

solice

turgon wrote: »

No; you put words in my mouth.

I just love the way people here just assume Im from Dublin, btw.

Anyway I have to go; we agree to disagree. bib b and Soldie believe that "society" should pay for bus services that are utterly unsustainable; Turgon believes people should pay for exactly what they get.

solICe belives that people should get what they pay for too! So we are in agreement.

But this hasnt happened in the West, North West, South East and South West (excluding Cork city and surroundings) and I think it would be unfair not to repay all the regions for all the investment by everybody that was seen in the East region over the past 20 years.

Never assumed you were from Dublin. The point wasnt about you being from Dublin, the point was about the investment being put into Dublin was not being mirrored in other counties. Words, mouth, into...pots and kettles!

Riskymove

solice wrote: »

solICe belives that people should get what they pay for too! So we are in agreement.

But this hasnt happened in the West, North West, South East and South West (excluding Cork city and surroundings) and I think it would be unfair not to repay all the regions for all the investment by everybody that was seen in the East region over the past 20 years.

Never assumed you were from Dublin. The point wasnt about you being from Dublin, the point was about the investment being put into Dublin was not being mirrored in other counties. Words, mouth, into...pots and kettles!

I'm afraid that assumes an equal share in providing taxes which has not been the case

if the people in the rural part of the west were only to benefit from what they paid i doubt they would have much

I imagine that the urban areas and greater dublin area have actually funded the work in the rural west not vice cersa

gurramok

Bring people to where the services are, one cannot expect services to be brought to people in the middle of nowhere, its costs alot of money to do so.

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

I'm afraid that assumes an equal share in providing taxes which has not been the case

if the people in the rural part of the west were only to benefit from what they paid i doubt they would have much

I imagine that the urban areas and greater dublin area have actually funded the work in the rural west not vice cersa

I grew up in a small rural village. There is a bus service which connects the village to the nearest town, Cork City. The bus goes twice a day, around 10 in the morning and 6 in the evening. Bus Eireann are talking about cutting it back. All the taxes that I have paid and the people who live in the area have not gone into developing our own public transport, all the taxes that people in Dublin have paid have not gone into developing a public transport system for our area. I can imagine that this is repeated throughout the country countless times! We dont want a service every 10 minutes, but we dont want our twice daily service cut back either.

What I meant in saying that people should get what they paid for is that we have paid but have got very little back!

Taxipete29

turgon wrote: »

How ? So we reduce the dole and yet for some reason the government will still pay the same?

Its called social responsibiltiy. If people cant pay their rent, they will be evicted. The Government will have to house them. If they cant pay ESB, Gas bills the government will pay them so people will have heat and electricity. If they cant afford medical bills, they will get a medical card.

Like it or not thats the kind of society we live in. Its not ideal as its open to alot of abuse, but I would much rather live in a country where the Government
at least tries to look after its citizens when they fall on hard times.

Liam Byrne

Riskymove wrote: »

I imagine that the urban areas and greater dublin area have actually funded the work in the rural west not vice cersa

Ah, yes.....that old chestnut.

Should I mention Luas, M50 buyout, all motorways and rail links via Dublin, etc ?

And god knows what would happen if everyone did decide to move into a city; traffic and house prices are bad enough as it is.

Anyway, whatever about "cuts", reform is what's required, and 5 options are:

1) VOUCHED EXPENSES ONLY, be they for FAS, HSE, TDs, whatever

2) Quit paying extra for people to be on committees, etc; it's their JOB, FFS!

3) Ditch the consultants and quangos, talking shops and other "commissioned reports" which are usually just excuses for inaction

4) Unemployed people paid for work done; be it community work or whatever needs to be done. NO COMPLETE FREEBIES

5) Change the law to ensure that TDs and Financial Regulators (and whoever else that doesn't do their job) get FIRED, with ZERO SALARY, ZERO SEVERANCE AND ZERO PENSION.

Do the job = we pay you
Do the job well = we'll think about a bonus
Keep doing it well for 10 / 15 years or so= we'll give you a severance and pension
F**k up and cost us millions = there's the door, and BTW we'll be after you for what you cost us

Applied retrospectively, with no bull**** about how it's against the law. The Dail makes the law, so they can change it (just as easily as they changed it to ensure the average Joe Soap gets screwed)

6) Income supplements for struggling businesses, so that they keep people on 3 or 4 day weeks, rather than letting people go completely. Those who receive them then agree to do some local community work AT COST for the other 1 or 2 days, be it painting local community buildings or cutting grass or community websites or supervising local teams - whatever.

NewDubliner

solice wrote: »

....In order to develop the country and bring sustainable growth we need to invest in the country as a whole. And that means that we need to invest in Kerry, Clare, Sligo, Mayo and Leitrim as well as Dublin etc. ....Developing the country along the proposed National Spatial Strategy is the way forward.

This sounds very nice (like Mom and Apple Pie), but it's pure waffle (or Apple Pie in the Sky).

We need to be strategic. That means looking at areas in the country that will are suitable for investment and not wasting money creating jobs that cannot be sustained without subsidies.

solice

NewDubliner wrote: »

This sounds very nice (like Mom and Apple Pie), but it's pure waffle (or Apple Pie in the Sky).

We need to be strategic. That means looking at areas in the country that will are suitable for investment and not wasting money creating jobs that cannot be sustained without subsidies.

Thats the point of the National Spatial Strategy!

NewDubliner

solice wrote: »

Thats the point of the National Spatial Strategy!

Was Leitrim included & if so, why?

Taxipete29

NewDubliner wrote: »

Was Leitrim included & if so, why?

It wasnt included. Here is the link to the strategy.

http://www.irishspatialstrategy.ie/

gaeilgegrinds

I'm toughening up here, if someone has never ever worked or tried to and could have, tough luck, no freebies. There are too many people out there for a free ride and guess who's paying for their weeks in Spain and 09 transits?! Ya, me.

Liam Byrne

gurramok wrote: »

Bring people to where the services are, one cannot expect services to be brought to people in the middle of nowhere, its costs alot of money to do so.

Interesting concept.

If we were to follow that to extremes, there would be no M50 and Dublin wouldn't have extended as far as Swords and Saggart, because there were no roads there.

Those people should have moved into Dublin city centre.

How would your "NW Dublin" location fare then, gurramok ?

But no, the M50 was built and then we all had to pay for it to be bought back.

Of course, if there were proper planning, then there would be decent mixes of housing and business, so that people wouldn't have to drive 20 miles to work because there were no jobs near there estate or because they couldn't afford an overpriced 2-bed built on what was supposed to be a ring road until the developers and their politician buddies struck a deal to make the land more profitable.

gurramok

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Interesting concept.

If we were to follow that to extremes, there would be no M50 and Dublin wouldn't have extended as far as Swords and Saggart, because there were no roads there.

I meant urban areas all over, not one-off housing estates like Ballivor!

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How would your "NW Dublin" location fare then, gurramok ?

Can you not see?

I moved to D4 where the services are!!...ROFL
(agree with rest of your post!)

turgon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If we were to follow that to extremes...

Perhaps if people were more willing to evaluate suggestions rather than just jumping on the most "extreme" connotation of the wording we would better see each others perspectives.

I believe that people should pay - full price - for the service they are receiving. So if some rural bus service is running holding only 3 passengers make them pay the 40 euro each it costs to run the bus. Otherwise this ridiculous situation of everyone paying for someone bus service comes about.

Its like most things in modern Ireland, people have become so accustomed to them they wouldnt even think to question them.

Spudmonkey

turgon wrote: »

I believe that people should pay - full price - for the service they are receiving. So if some rural bus service is running holding only 3 passengers make them pay the 40 euro each it costs to run the bus. Otherwise this ridiculous situation of everyone paying for someone bus service comes about.

Unfortunately turgon, there are some services that have to be provided, these services might be cut down to the bare minimum but can't be abolished completely. I mean I'm sure getting rid of the dole completely would solve a lot of problems, but thats not likely to happen

turgon

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Unfortunately turgon, there are some services that have to be provided, these services might be cut down to the bare minimum but can't be abolished completely. I mean I'm sure getting rid of the dole completely would solve a lot of problems, but thats not likely to happen

Well, obviously I dont expect people to pay for their own dole

But Im talking about things like transport. One of the reasons I believe in privatisation is because people pay for their services as they use them.

Spudmonkey

I still maintain that there are other things that could go first. I.e getting a lot of things in line with Europe (i.e just listening here about Brendan Drumm getting an 80,000 bonus on Vincent Browne). Once these have been sorted out there may be no reason to look at cutting things that people really need.

Unfortunately An Bord Snip is probably only going to highlight things that people need and thus are the easist to cut, like Crumlin hospital and transport like you are saying.

It's just I've seen some of the poorest countries in the world, and bad and all as things are, these are still things the governments provide for their citizens. If so called third world countries can do this surely we can.

Whats more but with people losing their jobs - not being able to afford their own transport, these may be things that more might be relying on. Just an idea.

Taxipete29

turgon wrote: »

Well, obviously I dont expect people to pay for their own dole

But Im talking about things like transport. One of the reasons I believe in privatisation is because people pay for their services as they use them.

So if you privatise everything, what would we be paying tax for?

gerry28

I believe that people should pay - full price - for the service they are receiving. So if some rural bus service is running holding only 3 passengers make them pay the 40 euro each it costs to run the bus. Otherwise this ridiculous situation of everyone paying for someone bus service comes about.

Its the old, the poor and the infirm who generally use these bus services.
Most other people use their cars.

Could you not find somewhere else to save money turgon? You might get more savings from an extra 1% tax on anyone earning over €150,000.

turgon

gerry28 wrote: »

Its the old, the poor and the infirm who generally use these bus services.
Most other people use their cars.

So why dont these "old, poor and infirm" simply ask their neighbours for a lift?