keyboard warriors

triseke

Any one notice that, online, even in pagan websites, some paths are considered more acceptable than others?
I'l give you an example of what i mean. there is a website i frequent quite often, its a pagan forum. Now, I would never ever thrash someone else's religion and beliefs. If it does no one any harm then each to their own. My beliefs are Dianic in nature, so why am I, and others that belong to different branches, ridiculed and told what I am doing is "wrong".

I have been a pagan for years and this is something that ive noticed with increasingly regularity. Any one else notice it?

Lou.m

They are bored and need lives.

It is all to do with people wanting to 'preserve lineage and tradition sometimes'

Or people thinking Witchcraft needs to be 'Saved' from the 'fluffies' or whatever.

In fairness i have met people in my own tradition who do this.

Paganism is and should be a non converting religion.............people who give their tradition lineage whatever any more preference than anyone else are looking for followers or to be some kind of leader/guru.......which we dont have and should not have.

If we are honest about what we do and are not trying to pass anything off as.....'old craft' when it has been created by our contemporaries and are honest without ourselves than that is fine.

I think you are talking about Alexandrian(to which i belong) and Gardenarian practioners although i could be wrong

It is a tough one to call sometimes..........you do get people making claims about what they practise ...........ie............or claiming things that are pure WRONG ie Bacchus is a Haitian god of butterflies or Aradia is the spider goddess form mars............yes i would feel the need to correct such people.

And they are out there.

What do they say you are wrong about??

But mostly they are bored need lives or are looking for converts(avoid such people like the plague!!)

triseke

they suggest that im wrong to only focus on the Goddess, and its not just alexandrian or gardernerian traditions either. As far as i know, as long as it works for the person and no one gets hurt, why make a fuss about it?

Phototoxin

My beliefs are Dianic in nature, so why am I, and others that belong to different branches, ridiculed and told what I am doing is "wrong".

Paganism is inherently divisive. . . my godess/god/deity/whatever is better than yours. Its simple human nature to think that yours is the best - otherwise why follow it? Even within monothestic deities supposedly worshiping one abrahamic deity there are many divisions and disagreement.

It is a tough one to call sometimes..........you do get people making claims about what they practise ...........ie............or claiming things that are pure WRONG ie Bacchus is a Haitian god of butterflies or Aradia is the spider goddess form mars............yes i would feel the need to correct such people.

From a factual position deities being what they are and religon requiring a component of faith no one can actually 'know' anything. Hence if someone referrs to Bacchus I would note that it is the greek god of wine/revelry as that is my understanding of it. If members of the heeby-jeeby tribe from khazakstan think that Bacchus is a weed smoking butterfly god then that is their belief and I am not one to correct them. However I think it would be prudent to show that their Bacchus and the contemporary Bacchus are probably 2 seperate things

OneArt

When I was younger and only learning (memories...) I used to go onto Wicca forums and the like and saw this was pretty rampant. I don't bother anymore, most pagans on the internet are a bunch of American freaks who think it'll be like Narnia.

But seriously in any religion people will get pissed off with others whose beliefs differ ever so slightly from theirs, such as Catholic and Protestant traditions in Christianity. Or Shia and Sunni Muslims.

Lou.m

Phototoxin wrote: »

Paganism is inherently divisive. . . my godess/god/deity/whatever is better than yours. Its simple human nature to think that yours is the best - otherwise why follow it? Even within monothestic deities supposedly worshiping one abrahamic deity there are many divisions and disagreement.


From a factual position deities being what they are and religon requiring a component of faith no one can actually 'know' anything. Hence if someone referrs to Bacchus I would note that it is the greek god of wine/revelry as that is my understanding of it. If members of the heeby-jeeby tribe from khazakstan think that Bacchus is a weed smoking butterfly god then that is their belief and I am not one to correct them. However I think it would be prudent to show that their Bacchus and the contemporary Bacchus are probably 2 seperate things

Phototoxin wrote: »

Paganism is inherently divisive. . . my godess/god/deity/whatever is better than yours. Its simple human nature to think that yours is the best - otherwise why follow it? Even within monothestic deities supposedly worshiping one abrahamic deity there are many divisions and disagreement.


From a factual position deities being what they are and religon requiring a component of faith no one can actually 'know' anything. Hence if someone referrs to Bacchus I would note that it is the greek god of wine/revelry as that is my understanding of it. If members of the heeby-jeeby tribe from khazakstan think that Bacchus is a weed smoking butterfly god then that is their belief and I am not one to correct them. However I think it would be prudent to show that their Bacchus and the contemporary Bacchus are probably 2 seperate things

Agreed phototoxin:)
IF asked who is Bacchus?

The answer from what you might create or know spiritually...........is different from what you would put on a University classics exam paper.

There is sometimes a need for intellectual rigour........but it does not need to be elitist in any way........

Historical accuracy does not have to limit contemporary practise.
If one is honest about where that practise comes from.


It is wonderful to have historical and cultural context.........but spirituality hmm.....that is very personal.
It is great to have both if you can.........

I have no problem with those creating their own traditions or gods.........or personal spiritual experience...........

I disagree though that paganism is following what you feel is the best path........you follow the best path for you knowing it may not be for everyone else.

It is really all a mirror. My perception is my perception.............i understand that my knowledge (even of history) is coloured by my perception and who i am ..........and that this makes a tradition simply my tradition.

I can try to be as logical or as objective as i can.........but in the end i see what I see.............i would like to try to get beyond that and broaden my mind and learn.

That is what makes it divisive........that fact that no ones tradition is better than any other, if it was not simply about perception and taste it would be clear who was right.

There is history and spirituality...on is fact based the other is not.........

I like having historical research beside my spiritual experience

And there are some hard facts you cant get away from........but it does not need to be limiting.

Dogma is not knowledge....... ........it is anti- scepticism or lack of being able to question something.Which i believe is part of knowledge.Unquestioned acceptance or irrefutability........that is what happens when a doctrine claims absolute truth.

I think personal experience should be respected......but there is a difference between personal spiritual experience and doctrine.

I think we can question doctrine or articles of faith especially our own...........in fact i think doing so may make us more tolerant.

I realize in CONTEMPORARY paganism there is very little doctrine........or there is very little official doctrine..

Even in lineage based traditions there is little official doctrine..........a lot is inferred............people infer a lot from certain practises
There are some beliefs that are implied through certain practises.
But i suppose that is open to interpretation.
People use inductive or deductive reasoning to peace together an unofficial doctrine.......

Some contemporary traditions have written passages......but they dont build up an ideological doctrine or theology in the way some of their practitioners sometimes think....

There may be said to be a de facto or unwritten doctrine of some basics that is implied through certain passages or practises or an understanding.....there are some conventions but it is also very varied.

When people start saying you are wrong in CONTEMPRORAY paganism..............well where is it written they are right?

Except for a few instances...........a few modern grimoires from certain traditions etc there is not much in the way written articles of faith .
And we are all practising contemporary paganism.

Oral tradition is vibrant and living.......but it is what it is........

You can question everything we should i can question others beliefs and my own.......maybe i could question why someone believes something........but there is no real concrete dogma or entire written doctrine for contemporary paganism.........there is very little by the way of true articles of faith.......not beyond a few basics maybe, maybe not even that.......

But because certain things are implied through a lot of practise or people infer things ...or becasue of a historical reference .......people get the idea or unconsciously believe there is a hard fast doctrine of some kind.

And they defend it or whatever.

Maybe i am wrong i dont know.

Phototoxin

I have no problem with those creating their own traditions or gods.........or personal spiritual experience...........

I disagree here as I don't think a deity is something a human can create.

Lou.m

Their is god creation in many pagan traditions through visualization.....and other forms.....

I think for some a deity is merely the energy of personification and belief with perhaps invocation and 'drawing down' or riding in Voudou traditions.

In a lot of traditions.......people make their gods and simply give them personification.

I do think belief and focus can create a deity.

I actually think that in the drawing down of the moon the belief the spirit of nature and the best of you all combine to make 'THAT PARTICULAR GODDESS' and each priest and priestess drawn down a different aspect so in a way i definitely think we create our gods or deities sometimes.

But i do think that paganism is often about finding the divine within you particularly in witchcraft

Phototoxin

To be honest that makes no sense to me, it actually sounds Like some sort of agnostic quakerism.

Lou.m

Agnostic quakerism???:)

Surely you have heard of drawing down or riding??

Drawing down of the moon is the basis of most pagan witchcraft rituals.

'If that which you seek you cannot find within yourself you will never find without yourself'
Part of a lot of charges within a lot of witchcraft religions including gardenarian or alexandrian

I supose quakers also believe that the spirit comes from within.....but pagans would also belief that different energies are present apart from theirs......



Phototoxin
'To be honest that makes no sense to me, it actually sounds Like some sort of agnostic quakerism.'

It's a mystery tradition:P;):P...it does not always make sense

I dont claim to always understand it myself.

I am pretty sure you must have heard of the drawing down of the moon.......well think of the idea behind it..........the drawing down of the universal feminine ( the moon or goddess energy) into the particular or individual feminine ( the Alexandrian or whatever priestess)..........you draw down certain aspects ( or sometimes they come of their own accord as some can attest to!) the personifications of certain deities........if you are dealing with death you might choose morrigan.........in most Alexandrian rituals a lot of names are called out tin the drawing down...certain aspects or energies come out for different priestesses.And at different times .......although you might be working with the same ritual.

Does that make sense???

Maybe not..................ah as i said it is a mystery tradition........

I promise that is not just a get out clause:-)

Really it is difficult to be precise and analytical all the time when you are talking about the esoteric or spiritual.

The witches own energy becomes involved........we search for our own divinity that was there along .

For instance.........women in later staged of life will often bring out the crone ...........women who have children will bring out mother aspects...........women like myself who are maidens will bring out maiden aspects.

Does that make sense?????????

Wait dont answer thatLOL:-)

Darlughda

Hia


Why do wolves howl at the moon I wonder, instead of letting the guilt drown?

I personally feel according to my tradition that the title of these threat
"Keyboard warriors" could be construed as offensive to my way and my choice of truth in my path" .

Anyway, maybe that's just my opinion.

Abhainn-Rivers

triseke wrote: »

Any one notice that, online, even in pagan websites, some paths are considered more acceptable than others?
I'l give you an example of what i mean. there is a website i frequent quite often, its a pagan forum. Now, I would never ever thrash someone else's religion and beliefs. If it does no one any harm then each to their own. My beliefs are Dianic in nature, so why am I, and others that belong to different branches, ridiculed and told what I am doing is "wrong".

I have been a pagan for years and this is something that ive noticed with increasingly regularity. Any one else notice it?

Personally I've never shied away from disagreeing with a fellow pagan from a different tradition on certain points but I've regularly been shocked at the responses from many others on the forum. Usually that of accusing me of inciting. Now I have never been unduely rude or broken any rules so I find this a very strange situation. I realise this isn't what you describe Triseke but I do wonder how much of this knee-jerk reactions that I've received have been due to repressing disagreements for the sake of appearing the good and proper Pagan who never looses it?!

As many will guess I do adopt the idea that so long as disagreements are aired in a healthy manner that people should be allowed. One forum I helped to Moderate in the past involved themselves in squirmishes that would have resolved themselves and weren't in friction with any rules anyway.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself very well. I realise I'm a new poster here I had some troubles with login details that kept me away, sorry.

studiorat

Darlughda wrote: »

Hia


Why do wolves howl at the moon I wonder, instead of letting the guilt drown?

They don't it's actually a myth. They are howling to each other.

Darlughda

Studio Rat,

Your observance of wolf behaviour is your opinion.

Abhainn-Rivers

Darlughda wrote: »

Studio Rat,

Your observance of wolf behaviour is your opinion.

Erm, don't mean to stick my head where doesn't belong but I think StudioRat is loosely referencing behavioural studies of wolves in places like Yellow Stone park in the US.

In terms of Paganism I don't really think this detracts from respective traditions that link the Wolf to the Moon. Though this is all going rather off-topic and I'm new so not sure how that will be recieved.

Returning to the question posted Triseke, mind if I ask whether you've encountered this bias at Irish forums or events or primarily at other forums?

Darlughda

Coming from an ancient blood line tradition myself, I am responding to Triseke's original thread starter.

Many amongst my clans think neo-pagans and witches are just fools. I try to prove them wrong.

Yellow stone park? Yogi bear, oh yeah, heard of him.

The ancient irish wolves I WILL NOT have ridiculed. Hence my question.

Sorry for being cross, but you know how mis communication rankles.

hairyheretic

I suspect you'll find that posting in a calm and thoughtful manner will get you a better response than posting in anger. Let's keep it civil, hmm?

Abhainn-Rivers

Avedha,

Darlughda wrote: »

Coming from an ancient blood line tradition myself, I am responding to Triseke's original thread starter...Many amongst my clans think neo-pagans and witches are just fools. I try to prove them wrong.

I'm not sure what your family have to do with anything here? Do they post on forums dismissing people following a neopagan spirituality? If so it's not very wise coming from practioners of an "ancient bloodline tradition", personally knowing a few family lines I'm off the opinion there is no such thing as many of those in Family Taditions will avouch that their traditions while rooted in cultural history are anything but Ancient. May I ask whay tradition your family is?

Darlughda wrote: »

Yellow stone park? Yogi bear, oh yeah, heard of him. The ancient irish wolves I WILL NOT have ridiculed. Hence my question.

I must apologise but I meant Yellowstone National Park in the US. I believe it houses many wolves. http://www.nps.gov/yell/ And as for Ancient Irish Wolves... who's ridiculing them? I don't understand.

Darlughda wrote: »

Sorry for being cross, but you know how mis communication rankles.

No need to be sorry just don't be cross. :P I do indeed understand that the internet can not convey everything and so I hope that my questions will be recieved in the peaceful form they are intended! x

Darlughda

Its very tricky being civil sometimes, but I hear ya. I'll try.

I am not allowed to reveal my tradition. I asked, and you would not believe the abuse I got. Personally, I am sick of these silly secrets, but I gotta toe the line too.

Abhainn-Rivers

Hmm I must confess I've never encountered a tradition that could not be mentioned by name. Whatever about not sharing tradition secrets (none of the friends I've mentioned shared anything besides their name and some material that was not native and could be found anywhere on the net).

I'll try to suspend my skepticism but would be bold enough to recommend not bringing it up at all. I mean only that it's a tradition you claim can't share and yet you're on here? If you have a view there are other ways to add weight to your opinions than throwing out comments like: "My ancient bloodline.." as it only serves to distract from the conversation and further undermines your own personal opinion. There are countless number of people on forums doing the same thing...a tradition or a title doesn't make you right...being right does so back it up.

Nevyn

Darlughda wrote: »

Coming from an ancient blood line tradition myself, I am responding to Triseke's original thread starter.

Fair enough.

Darlughda wrote: »

Many amongst my clans think neo-pagans and witches are just fools. I try to prove them wrong.

hmm what has that to do with this thread?

Darlughda wrote: »

Yellow stone park? Yogi bear, oh yeah, heard of him.

Yellow stone park is not just a place in a cartoon it is the largest park in the world ( the phoenix park is next ) and a nature reserve with quiet the wolf population.

Darlughda wrote: »

The ancient irish wolves I WILL NOT have ridiculed. Hence my question.

I don't see how irish wolves are being ridiculed, and we know very little about them given that the last ones were wiped out over 300 years ago. But that is getting off topic but a thread on Irish wovles would be most welcome here if you started one.

Darlughda

I've a lot to learn from other spiritual traditions. That's all I know.

Nevyn

triseke wrote: »

Any one notice that, online, even in pagan websites, some paths are considered more acceptable than others?
I'l give you an example of what i mean. there is a website i frequent quite often, its a pagan forum. Now, I would never ever thrash someone else's religion and beliefs. If it does no one any harm then each to their own. My beliefs are Dianic in nature, so why am I, and others that belong to different branches, ridiculed and told what I am doing is "wrong".

I have been a pagan for years and this is something that ive noticed with increasingly regularity. Any one else notice it?

I don't have any issue with someone who's beliefs are Dainic none what so ever but I do find the term Dianic Wicca to be an oxymoron as wicca has a god and a goddess.

Abhainn-Rivers

I wonder if this specifically issue arises because of an understanding that Dianic Wicca can't have a God in it? As my understanding was that it does but that the God takes an even deeper backseat compared to the more Traditional forms of Wicca? I think, largely due to certain references in Wicca 101 books that intimate that Wicca focuses primarily on the Goddess so logically Dianic Wicca because it is associated with feminist movements of the 70s has to only be the Goddess. Afterall who'd be a proper feminist if they added/allowed males into their life.

Which is all completely not so, but the wording in a lot of books seems to suggest this is still the case. Personally I think whether with a God and Goddess present in rituals or just the Goddess for a women's working group a male figure could appear in transgender form like tales on Odin/Woden studing Freja's magick that was known only to women, etc.

Nevyn

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

I wonder if this specifically issue arises because of an understanding that Dianic Wicca can't have a God in it? As my understanding was that it does but that the God takes an even deeper backseat compared to the more Traditional forms of Wicca?

Well as per the definiation of Wicca this forum uses it is not Wicca it is pagan witchcraft which is goddess focused.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

I think, largely due to certain references in Wicca 101 books that intimate that Wicca focuses primarily on the Goddess so logically Dianic Wicca because it is associated with feminist movements of the 70s has to only be the Goddess.

Again a lot of those books aren't about Wicca, neo pagan practices and spirituality certianly and as far as I know the Dianic organisations in the USA
have dropped the term wicca.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Afterall who'd be a proper feminist if they added/allowed males into their life.

Honestly imho only idiots. Men can be and are feminists too and honestly casting them out will not bring inclusive social change. While I will acknowledge there is a difference in the sexes and there is certainly a need for mens mysteries and women's mysteries but separatist feminism has done more harm then good.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Which is all completely not so, but the wording in a lot of books seems to suggest this is still the case.

You have to look at cultural and historical placement of what you are reading imho.

Abhainn-Rivers wrote: »

Personally I think whether with a God and Goddess present in rituals or just the Goddess for a women's working group a male figure could appear in transgender form like tales on Odin/Woden studing Freja's magick that was known only to women, etc.

That certainly is an intresting idea and better old one eye in a frock then a shape changed Loki.

Abhainn-Rivers

Thaedydal wrote: »

Well as per the definiation of Wicca this forum uses it is not Wicca it is pagan witchcraft which is goddess focused.

Again a lot of those books aren't about Wicca, neo pagan practices and spirituality certianly and as far as I know the Dianic organisations in the USA
have dropped the term wicca.

I accept the forum has a definition that it prefers to use so when I say the above statement please understand this isn't my attempt at subverting the rules and guidelines but my acknowledgement that in large areas of the Pagan online-social sphere that that Wicca is also defined and redefined a thousand times more.

To the latter part of your statement those that are Wicca 101 books do use the term Wicca. What they usually mean is they [the author] are eclectic/progressive witchcraft and neopagan practices. I don't agree with the assessment that many have dropped the term Wicca. Many actually are still sold under the title Wicca in the bookshops.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Honestly imho only idiots. Men can be and are feminists too and honestly casting them out will not bring inclusive social change. While I will acknowledge there is a difference in the sexes and there is certainly a need for mens mysteries and women's mysteries but separatist feminism has done more harm then good.

Hehe well that serves me right for trying to be funny! lol I agree though that the hardline feminists only served to isolate the men that did agree with the outlook.

Nevyn

I meant that from what I have seen the Dianic Traditon which springs from the Susan B Anthony Coven seems to be going back to using the term Dianic Witchcraft rather then wicca.

triseke

Thaedydal wrote: »

I meant that from what I have seen the Dianic Traditon which springs from the Susan B Anthony Coven seems to be going back to using the term Dianic Witchcraft rather then wicca.

I also believe that wicca does have to have a god and goddess which is why i dont use that term to describe my beliefs. there are a lot of "goddess-focused" books for sale under the term wicca but to me, thats the wrong term. Couldnt get any more wrong in fact!

Abhainn-Rivers

Oh I agree with you both that its clearly a misnomer and one that needs correcting but what I was suggesting was that it might be at least in part responsible for the way some people treat Dianic Witchcraft, which whether rightly or wrongly has also been called Dianic Wicca.

Phototoxin

I actually think that in the drawing down of the moon the belief the spirit of nature and the best of you all combine to make 'THAT PARTICULAR GODDESS' and each priest and priestess drawn down a different aspect so in a way i definitely think we create our gods or deities sometimes.

But i do think that paganism is often about finding the divine within you particularly in witchcraft

but surely divine by definintion cannot be within us as we are human not divine?
Also percieving something differently does not make it different (don't start about quantum physics!) if I see a knife in a apple and you see an 'expression of human angst' you are not wrong but it does not change the fact that there is still a knife in an apple

I am pretty sure you must have heard of the drawing down of the moon

I've not actually Lou, thank you for explaining it :-) it seems an interesting
practise

Your observance of wolf behaviour is your opinion.

this is kinda what I'm getting at actually... the wolf is howling but why is the part which we choose ourselves but it does not change the fact that the wolf is howling which is what people infer themselves.

Honestly imho only idiots. Men can be and are feminists too and honestly casting them out will not bring inclusive social change. While I will acknowledge there is a difference in the sexes and there is certainly a need for mens mysteries and women's mysteries but separatist feminism has done more harm then good.

I concur (also props for breaking the stereotype of female pagan feminazi ;-) ) I don't think hiding things about the sexes is good - it creates victorian ankle syndrome! (leaf placed to protect the children!)

busman

Thaedydal wrote: »

Fair enough. We know very little about them given that the last ones were wiped out over 300 years ago. But that is getting off topic but a thread on Irish wovles would be most welcome here if you started one.

If I could step in here ...
There is a very good paper by Kieran Hickey "A geographical perspective on the decline and extermination of the Irish wolf canis lupus— an initial assessment"

For those interested it can be found here ... http://www.ucd.ie/gsi/pdf/33-2/lupus.pdf

I was surprised when I found out that is was just over 200 years ago that the last wolf in Ireland was killed!

To keep on topic about traditional lines of pagan practices/believes, it must be remembered that our environment has changed beyond recondition as the above paper proves. Part of this new environment is the internet. Unlike in the past where most information/debate/discussions/disagreements etc would have been conducted face to face we now can disseminate our views and find our knowledge by remote means. This makes it easy for the "keyboard warriors" to stoke the fire at a distance without fear of reprisal!

Personally I call myself a pagan but follow no set tradition, I also believe that looking at the past can teach us a lot, but what most people seek can only be found within and that life is about living in balance with our environment and remembering that everything has a cycle.

Paul