EVERYTHING about HPAT and getting medicine

Blur

Anne-Marie!! wrote: »

Its on the bottom of your cao form.



Yup!

Oh ok , I shall check that!

bythewoods

I have Trinity first, but not a chance will I get it.

If I get anywhere, it'll be Galway.
Please please PLEASE let 726 be enough

drrkpd

holadivaldfe wrote: »

i've noticed that there are a few people on here whom are in the top 10-13% in the country and you have 550+ points. i also noticed most of you are worried with those scores. are you serious?

by virtue of the fact that you're in the top 13% this means that you are in the top 310 in the country. there are at least 405 places in the country and not every one who scores high in the hpat will score high in the leaving cert.

still worried?

Not sure how you have worked out top 310 in country on top 13% in hpat.
3000 sat the exam so each centile should be 30 people BUT this group includes mature students and there may be as many as 300 which would be
3000-300= 2700 so 27 students per centile.
So should be in top 351 (if 27) or top 390 (if 30).

Also some top scores may not have put medicine first and some high hpat may not have scored 550 or above in LC-unlikely I know but not impossible.

Qualifax says 405 undergraduate medical students in country I think is 420 but lets work with 405 and lets take 30 per centile to be safe.

So anyone with a perfect LC 560 + 87 th percentile or above in hpat 177 for a total of 737 or above is in my opinion guaranteed a place in medicine BUT maybe not their first choice. Trinity will be highest -always is (smaller number of places, Dublin and popular).

Where no-one has a clue is about the LOWEST points for entry to medicine is because some people have perfect LC and less good hpat. Others have good hpat but less good LC. This is impossible to predict.

As regards hpat only 3000 out of 57000 LC students did it so this is the presumed top 5% in the country doing this exam. Even if you scored 10 th percentile this still means you are extremely capable and I think people are regarding themselves as "poor" forgetting that thay are competing against the very top of the country anyway!!!!!

Zenith23

I know that this is a long shot but does anybody have any idea or estimate as to how many people will be applying for Trinity on there 1st choice.

Also, I'm not sure how this works:
If a candidate was to get say 700 points and have Trinity as their 1st choice and another candidate had 720 points and had Trinity as 2nd on their CAO (provided the 2nd candidate didn't get his/her 1st place) who gets the place? Will there be a cut-off point, under which is a failure?

Bazzo26

Anyone doing med in UCC?

Bazzo26

Zenith23 wrote: »

I know that this is a long shot but does anybody have any idea or estimate as to how many people will be applying for Trinity on there 1st choice.

Also, I'm not sure how this works:
If a candidate was to get say 700 points and have Trinity as their 1st choice and another candidate had 720 points and had Trinity as 2nd on their CAO (provided the 2nd candidate didn't get his/her 1st place) who gets the place? Will there be a cut-off point, under which is a failure?

I'd say about 8/900 will have TCD as their first choice and would say the 720 pointer would get the place. I imagine on monday it'll just be a number as usual and the random number thing will decide the last few places

cantona56

does anybody else think its extremely unfair to work your ass off for two years to get medicine, get 600 points and not get it in the end because of some stupid new up in the air apptitude test....i mean i had accepted my poor Hpat score but ive been thinking and now im absolutely livid!!!!!:mad:

Piste

Yeah same, I got 590 and would have gotten med in Trinity last year

Zenith23

Bazzo26 wrote: »

I'd say about 8/900 will have TCD as their first choice and would say the 720 pointer would get the place. I imagine on monday it'll just be a number as usual and the random number thing will decide the last few places

8/900? I know that can't be..Do you mean 80/900?

Oh and cantona56, I completely agree. Medicine is an intense course designed for those who work diligently. A good Leaving Cert reflects how one can cope with the Medicine course, not a gift for aptitude tests!

Blur

Oh please!

The aptitude test is meant to find who will make the best doctor.I have no idea if it is actually effective but it's much better than simple Leaving Cert. level subjects that have nothing to do with being a doctor.

Then again, this is coming from someone who did better in the HPAT than the leaving cert.

straight_As

Zenith23 wrote: »

8/900? I know that can't be..Do you mean 80/900?

Oh and cantona56, I completely agree. Medicine is an intense course designed for those who work diligently. A good Leaving Cert reflects how one can cope with the Medicine course, not a gift for aptitude tests!

Sorry mate, but considering you've just done the LC, I don't think you're in any position to categorically say that med is a "designed for those who work diligently".

I'm pretty sure med is designed to train doctors who will competently and comprehensively care for patients.

I'd say diligence vs gift was little more than an after-thought when the course was being designed.

Priorities, man. Priorities.

Blur

straight_As wrote: »

Sorry mate, but considering you've just done the LC, I don't think you're in any position to categorically say that med is a "designed for those who work diligently".

I'm pretty sure med is designed to train doctors who will competently and comprehensively care for patients.

I'd say diligence vs gift was little more than an after-thought when the course was being designed.

Priorities, man. Priorities.

I agree with this man.

drrkpd

Blur wrote: »

Oh please!

The aptitude test is meant to find who will make the best doctor.I have no idea if it is actually effective but it's much better than simple Leaving Cert. level subjects that have nothing to do with being a doctor.

Then again, this is coming from someone who did better in the HPAT than the leaving cert.

I think hpat is not an aptitude test but a psychometric test to test your intelligence and quick decision making in the 3 areas that the test outlines. A bit like a DAT test on speed. I dont kow of any research that says there is any test that can find who will be the best doctor and doubt there ever will be. There IS Australian research to show that prior preperation does not improve your scores -maybe that is why it was chosen.

And I confidently predict great and understandable unhappiness amongst the people who with high LC scores would have got in under the old system. But was random selection at say 570 really fair either???

Blur

Well, 30 years ago a couple of Cs were enough to get into any course you wanted.ie. things change and we just have to accept them.

I think the people that get 600 are amazing and all but they knew what entry into medicine required this year long in advance; so while maybe they can feel bitter, they can't really complain.

straight_As

Blur wrote: »

I agree with this man.

Respect homie.

PhysiologyRocks

I don't know about the HPAT, but the leaving cert isn't a bad method of telling how you'll cope with the actual coursework.

The only part it doesn't really prepare you for is interaction with patients. That said, I don't see how a HPAT can do that either.

Maybe the HPAT is really a better system, I don't know. But I don't think the old system was bad, bar random selection.

Zenith23

straight_As wrote: »

Sorry mate, but considering you've just done the LC, I don't think you're in any position to categorically say that med is a "designed for those who work diligently".

I'm pretty sure med is designed to train doctors who will competently and comprehensively care for patients.

I'd say diligence vs gift was little more than an after-thought when the course was being designed.

Priorities, man. Priorities.

Maybe I don't have the experience, but after reading numerous blogs I have certainly molded somewhat of an opinion on how I think the system should be.

Consider this, for example: Would you honestly say that a person who scores 600 points in the LC and sub-normal in HPAT will have a detrimental effect on the health system?

600 points means a student is mature, determined, self-disciplined, organised, ambitious etc. The key ingredients of any Doctor worth his/her salt.

If a person is so clever as to get 220 in the HPAT but only manages 500 in the LC, what does that mean? He/she must have the potential to get 600 but doesn't possess the above because he/she is lazy or what have you, making it almost impossible for him/her to get past 1st year med.

Someone may have the characteristics of a Doctor as the HPAT predicts but does that really mean that he/she can be a Doctor? Can he/she work 48-hour shifts etc?

While the LC consists of 2 year (3 for some) of focused study, how does the HPAT compare? It is one sitting on one day and it accounts for so much.

Blur

Zenith23 wrote: »

If a person is so clever as to get 220 in the HPAT but only manages 500 in the LC, what does that mean? He/she must have the potential to get 600 but doesn't possess the above because he/she is lazy or what have you, making it almost impossible for him/her to get past 1st year med.

Someone may have the characteristics of a Doctor as the HPAT predicts but does that really mean that he/she can be a Doctor? Can he/she work 48-hour shifts etc?

*Points to self* :P


Seriously though,on one hand there's many brilliant brilliant students I know who don't hit the high 500s and would make awesome doctors , while on the other hand the girl I know who got 600 is an absolute idiot and has no place in a hospital.

The more types of intelligence the qualification system caters for the better.

straight_As

Zenith23 wrote: »

Maybe I don't have the experience, but after reading numerous blogs I have certainly molded somewhat of an opinion on how I think the system should be.

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinions, but you didn't state these as opinions in your previous post. You stated them as self-proclaimed fact.

Consider this, for example: Would you honestly say that a person who scores 600 points in the LC and sub-normal in HPAT will have a detrimental effect on the health system?

No, I wouldn't categorically say it. But I do know such people, who if I had as a doctor, would be told to fuck off away from me.

600 points means a student is mature, determined, self-disciplined, organised, ambitious etc. The key ingredients of any Doctor worth his/her salt.

Positive word association doesn't make a statement true, buddy.

Can you explain how 600 points means such things? There are people who get 600 who I'd classify as completely polar to such adjectives. They are just innately gifted.

Personally, if I were assigned a doctor, frankly, I'd hope they scored highly in both sections of the admission process. I want a doctor who is knowledgeable, yes undoubtedly, but as, if not more important, for me, one who has an aptitude in rational, split second thinking coupled with a genuine comprehension of the said knowledge's applications and effects. I think students who posses both qualities are those being searched for by the HPAT. Sure, to the best of my knowledge, weren't most experts (guidance counsellors on radio shows, etc.) discounting applicants with less than 550 LC points?

If a person is so clever as to get 220 in the HPAT but only manages 500 in the LC, what does that mean? He/she must have the potential to get 600 but doesn't possess the above because he/she is lazy or what have you, making it almost impossible for him/her to get past 1st year med.

Lolz at "he/she is lazy".

If you want to go around and classify people as such, do at your own peril. You have no idea what may be going on at home with these people, or indeed on the day of the exams. I think you're being a bit short sighted there.

Furthermore, I firmly believe that a system whereby languages other than English, and business/humanity subjects receive the same weighting in admission to med as sciences and the technical subjects, is fundamentally flawed. Lack of interest in such pointless, relative to the course, subjects is often a main contributor to the 'demise' of the gifted student, aiming for med. I feel the HPAT adjusts somewhat the balance, shifting it away from a completely dominant 6-subject system, to one of academia, yes, but, equally, one of practical knowledge.

Someone may have the characteristics of a Doctor as the HPAT predicts but does that really mean that he/she can be a Doctor? Can he/she work 48-hour shifts etc?

If the law is abided, such shifts such be a thing of the past with the EWTD.

While the LC consists of 2 year (3 for some) of focused study, how does the HPAT compare? It is one sitting on one day and it accounts for so much.

Pal, the LC cycle is two years, the actual exams are "one sitting on one day and it accounts for so much."

pureirishsugar

right lads, i can 100% see why people who got 600 on monday are going to feel hard done by if they don't get into medicine. i'm not going to argue the pros and cons of the HPAT, but just remember that the cao isn't the only option. accept your 2nd option, or take a year out and apply to ucas for next year. concentrate on getting a good score in ukcat, go get some quality work experience, get help writing your personal statement from a career guidance teacher. i know this is going to be thrown in my face, saying people can't afford it. the funny thing is, if fee's get introduced here next year, its actually going to be cheaper to go to uni in scotland!

its an option lads and any option that will get you in the medicine is worth persuing.
best of luck on monday, and it will be highly interesting to see what combinations of HPAT and LC get into medicine

Bazzo26

Zenith23 wrote: »

8/900? I know that can't be..Do you mean 80/900?

Oh and cantona56, I completely agree. Medicine is an intense course designed for those who work diligently. A good Leaving Cert reflects how one can cope with the Medicine course, not a gift for aptitude tests!

Sorry what I meant was about 800 or 900. 3100 did the HPAT and I think about 17% of the places in Ireland are Trinity. That equals about 530 but considering its the most popular thats where I got the number from. But if you have the points you can eliminate probably 85% of that number, the people who did'nt get the points or a good enough HPAT

Personally I think the HPAT was a good idea because people in grind schools and the like just learn off textbooks and stick it back in the exam. It shows hard work but maybe a lack of intelligence. The new system balances it out. I guarantee when the results come out no one who gets medicine is going to have a bad leaving or HPAT. They'll have done really well in both. I do feel sorry for the 600 pointers who do'nt get it though. Condolences:(

cantona56

Critically ill patient arrives in ER needing urgent lifesaving treatment. Is there going to be a sheet of paper selotaped to their head saying 'tick the correct image that comes next in the sequence' and a correct answer will save their life????

NO!!! The doctor is going to recall knowlege that he has learned, studied and remembered, apply it to a tense situation (as he did to a lesser extent in the leaving cert) and save the persons life!!

Hpat may test intelligence but i argue that if you get above 570 points in your leaving cert nobody can say you are not intelligent. As for seemingly silly people with 600 points, dont be fooled!! trust me, they know exactly how they are acting and the majority of them would be professional in a professional setting!

drrkpd

I think one of the fairest things about the new system is that your Leaving Cert points are counted from the year in which you MATRICULATED. This boring word means that you have to do English,Irish,Third Language,Maths and one or more Science subjects to satisfy the university minimum requirements and is covered on cao page on medical entry and on qualifax.
See
http://www2.cao.ie/otherinfo/2009UGMedEntry.pdf

You used to be able to "bank" your matriculation subjects and do any others to get the maximum points. So first time Leaving Certs were trying to compete against people who could choose their best subjects and a few new ones and this was not a level playing field. 16% of medical student entrants to one university were there on their 3rd Leaving Cert!!!
I would love to know how many medical students were admitted on their first Leaving Certificate but that is never published.

The people who got 580- 600 LC on their first attempt but not sufficiently high hpat must be incredibly disappointed and I feel terribly sorry for them but this system is the new way and perhaps for the above reasons it was changed.

JSK 252

cantona56 wrote: »

Critically ill patient arrives in ER needing urgent lifesaving treatment. Is there going to be a sheet of paper selotaped to their head saying 'tick the correct image that comes next in the sequence' and a correct answer will save their life????

NO!!! The doctor is going to recall knowlege that he has learned, studied and remembered, apply it to a tense situation (as he did to a lesser extent in the leaving cert) and save the persons life!!

Hpat may test intelligence but i argue that if you get above 570 points in your leaving cert nobody can say you are not intelligent. As for seemingly silly people with 600 points, dont be fooled!! trust me, they know exactly how they are acting and the majority of them would be professional in a professional setting!

I love you Erica Cantona!:D

cantona56

JSK 252 wrote: »

I love you Erica Cantona!:D

Sound JSK!!:D

As for the matriculation in one year, i completely agree. Much easier IMO to get an A1 in agg science or Biology than maths or english provided you put the work in.

this rule should have been changed a long time ago, but would it not have been better to change only this rule and see how things went for a few years before completely changing the system....as that is what they have done!

drrkpd

this is the official launch of new system from 2007 press release to explain it- the government works in it's own way!!!

http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?maincat=&pcategory=40100&ecategory=41296&sectionpage=12251&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=38904

holadivaldfe

it's has been published twice in the times that there are around 480-490 places in medicine.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0814/1224252551581.html

they did say in the first publication in 2007 that they intended increasing the nuber of medical places.

p.s: to the person i said that if your in the top 13% your in the top 310... sorry i mean't 390! still though, you've no need to worry!

Zenith23

straight_As wrote: »

Lolz at "he/she is lazy".

If you want to go around and classify people as such, do at your own peril. You have no idea what may be going on at home with these people, or indeed on the day of the exams. I think you're being a bit short sighted there.

Pal, the LC cycle is two years, the actual exams are "one sitting on one day and it accounts for so much."

I'm not liking the self-righteous tone and smug winking smiley at the end thing, but anyway. Like you said "You have no idea what may be going on at home with these people, or indeed on the day of the exams." The thing is I do know. I know as this is what happened to me in the HPAT, the day of the exam was terrible and alien to me.

Furthermore you cannot categorically say that all people who hit the 500s are not lazy. I'm not saying they all are but you must admit some certainly are and are the kind who may get into medicine due to the current system.

The Leaving Cert is not one day, by the way. It is about 14 days, which is ample time to calm down and adjust oneself during the transition of individual sittings, just to clarify.

Oh, and don't call me Buddy...I am not your Buddy..

cantona56 wrote: »

Critically ill patient arrives in ER needing urgent lifesaving treatment. Is there going to be a sheet of paper selotaped to their head saying 'tick the correct image that comes next in the sequence' and a correct answer will save their life????

NO!!! The doctor is going to recall knowlege that he has learned, studied and remembered, apply it to a tense situation (as he did to a lesser extent in the leaving cert) and save the persons life!!

Hpat may test intelligence but i argue that if you get above 570 points in your leaving cert nobody can say you are not intelligent. As for seemingly silly people with 600 points, dont be fooled!! trust me, they know exactly how they are acting and the majority of them would be professional in a professional setting!

My thoughts exactly, couldn't agree more. :cool:

Jeebus

Any indication of what will be good enough, lads ? Can we leave the hpat vs Leaving Cert thing behind until the points are out ? I check here to see if there is any news, I'd rather not have to sift through a big argument !

Sorry, maybe I'm just extremely nervous.

drrkpd

Jeebus wrote: »

Any indication of what will be good enough, lads ? Can we leave the hpat vs Leaving Cert thing behind until the points are out ? I check here to see if there is any news, I'd rather not have to sift through a big argument !

Sorry, maybe I'm just extremely nervous.

Agree the last thread was closed down because of arguments and that would be a shame. People are justifiably nervous and sometimes they say things they normally wouldn't.

I have already posted in this thread my reasons why 737 combined points and above is in my opinion certain to get a medical place.
I also made the point that for the final places marks are impossible to predict as there will be good LC points and not so good hpat and the reverse.
There wont be any real news until 6 am Monday morning!!!
The poll shows some amusing guesses as to the marks required and until then it is all a guess.
Trinity will remain the highest points is also pretty certain.
If guesses are allowed (or even useful??) I will have my vote- depends what people want.

straight_As

Zenith23 wrote: »

I'm not liking the self-righteous tone and smug winking smiley at the end thing, but anyway. Like you said "You have no idea what may be going on at home with these people, or indeed on the day of the exams." The thing is I do know. I know as this is what happened to me in the HPAT, the day of the exam was terrible and alien to me.

Furthermore you cannot categorically say that all people who hit the 500s are not lazy. I'm not saying they all are but you must admit some certainly are and are the kind who may get into medicine due to the current system.

The Leaving Cert is not one day, by the way. It is about 14 days, which is ample time to calm down and adjust oneself during the transition of individual sittings, just to clarify.

Oh, and don't call me Buddy...I am not your Buddy..

Grow up.

I don't give a flying fuck if you classify me, little more than a screen name, as a friend.

I'm pretty sure I was the reason the last HPAT thread was closed, so I'll stop now and not ruin another discussion.

And Zennith23, one day you might just meet a patient like me. Make sure you have some solid facts behind you, because I'm the sort of person who will question how, where, and to what degree you are qualified. I'll also, more than likely, check your mistakes, so make sure you've lost the adjective infused generalisations which you classify as information.

Oh, and calling a patient smug and condescending won't frighten them when their health is at risk.

You're made to be one of those HSE cronies, tbh.

pwn'd

rgnmb

Thank God for the early round.....thats all I'll say...

I don't envy any one of ye.

Anyone heading for UCC?

cantona56

rgnmb wrote: »

Thank God for the early round.....thats all I'll say...

I don't envy any one of ye.

Anyone heading for UCC?

You already in on round 0??? has that even happened???....jealous!!!:D

UnDeNiAbLe

ok guys....is 715 enough to secure a place? hell im so woried ...i dont think im gona make it...:(

Piste

Honestly....probably not. I'm on 718 and I'm not too hopeful.

rgnmb

Before round 0! The early round...

For mature students and the like...

Best of luck to everyone. If Monday morning doesn't work out, don't panic, you can get to where you want to go....maybe not just the easy route.

base individual

Who gets in on round 2 and 3 as oppsoed to round 1? As in how many of the med places will have been designated by round 1?

Kwekubo

base individual wrote: »

Who gets in on round 2 and 3 as oppsoed to round 1? As in how many of the med places will have been designated by round 1?

Works just like any other course.

Say there are 100 places on a course; 100 offers will be sent out by the CAO in Round 1.

If 20 of the 100 do not accept their Round 1 offers by the closing date, then they will lapse, and there is a Round 2; those places will then be offered to the applicants with the next highest points (or by random selection if there are too many applicants on that points level).

If 10 of the 20 don't accept their Round 2 offers, there will be a Round 3; and so on and so forth until all places are filled or there are no more applicants in the chain.

Zenith23

straight_As wrote: »

Grow up.

I don't give a flying fuck if you classify me, little more than a screen name, as a friend.

I'm pretty sure I was the reason the last HPAT thread was closed, so I'll stop now and not ruin another discussion.

And Zennith23, one day you might just meet a patient like me. Make sure you have some solid facts behind you, because I'm the sort of person who will question how, where, and to what degree you are qualified. I'll also, more than likely, check your mistakes, so make sure you've lost the adjective infused generalisations which you classify as information.

Oh, and calling a patient smug and condescending won't frighten them when their health is at risk.

You're made to be one of those HSE cronies, tbh.

pwn'd

HaHa, you're telling me to grow up? Seriously, what are you, some kind of 12-year-old child? Oooh no..you pawned me, I certainly learned my lesson.

You don't even know me, it's just the internet (and I'm just a "screen name") and yet you so immaturely stoop to petty name-calling by characterizing me as a pending HSE cronie. Like, what the hell?

Anyway, let's just leave it at that, shall we?

rgnmb

"will question how, where, and to what degree you are qualified. I'll also, more than likely, check your mistakes"

describes every patient already there! :pac:

straight_As

Zenith23 wrote: »

HaHa, you're telling me to grow up? Seriously, what are you, some kind of 12-year-old child? Oooh no..you pawned me, I certainly learned my lesson.

You don't even know me, it's just the internet (and I'm just a "screen name") and yet you so immaturely stoop to petty name-calling by characterizing me as a pending HSE cronie. Like, what the hell?

Anyway, let's just leave it at that, shall we?

We shall.

I think you failed to spot my humour.

"Grow up" at the start and "pwn'd" at the end. How odd it is that I leave short, conflicting ideas at the start and the end of my comment? I definitely wasn't taking the piss :rolleyes:

The internet is funny.

Back on topic kids.

drrkpd

Before any more arguments how about the subject of the thread?

All quiet otherwise - people in bed to get 8 hours sleep before 6 am???!!!!
Or more likely out!!!!
So best guess appropriate now.

Trinity- highest combined points- easy!

Lowest combined points to get accepted into medical school??
Well we have the poll (which should close soon!!!)- the audience says 720-729.

Would love to say they are right but my best guess based on my previous posts in this thread is 730.
Hope for those in 720's I am wrong but that is where I think it will be

EDIT AT 6.17 THRILLED I WAS WRONG!!!

StatsMan

A last min guess, just to see how wrong i can b

Trinity - 738
UCD/UCC - 732
NUIG - 730
RCSI - 728

holadivaldfe

damn what if you're right?! looks like i'll miss out by 2 points! :(:(:(:confused:

bythewoods

holadivaldfe I'm in the exact same boat as you.

Feck off with yer stats lads. :P

bythewoods

Just been told med in RCSI is 715!!!!!!

holadivaldfe

who? what? when? where? how?





please don't tell me you're getting my hopes up for no reason, i'm shaking here!

bythewoods

Unconfirmed...

But let's keep them fingers crossed, eh? eh?

What's your order of preference?

holadivaldfe

TCD
UCD
UCC
NUIG
RCSI


everything's crossed!!!!

please post confirmation if you get one, thanks!

eVeNtInE

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