Arfon or Preseli for digital terestrial-Decision needed soon-Advice please.

The Cush

Article from today's Irish Independent on DSO in Wales.

Thousands lose free Beeb in big switch-off

By Michael Brennan Political Correspondent
Tuesday August 11 2009

THEY were once the first people in Ireland to be able to watch television -- but now they're about to lose their signal.

The residents of the south east were once the envy of the country because they were able to pick up the BBC and ITV television signals in the 1950s before RTE came into existence.

But now the British government is switching off its analogue television signal to Wales in the coming months. This means that people in counties such as Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford and Waterford will have to either pay for cable or satellite television to get British TV channels.

A private RTE document estimated that there were still 197,000 people in the country who were dependent on the British television "spillover" for their free multi-channel viewing.

However, some of these are located in the border counties and are receiving their signal from the North, which is not due to be switched off until 2012.

Concerned

Labour communications spokesperson Liz McManus said she was concerned at the effect the Welsh switch-off would have on viewers.

"RTE has promised us that people would not lose out but they clearly are going to lose out with the disaster in relation to Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) project," she said.

The DTT project was meant to provide a free-to-air digital television service but the private Boxer consortium in charge of rolling it out pulled out of the project last April. RTE has now admitted that it will no longer meet its target of having the service in place by next month.

Ms McManus, who has raised the issue in the Dail, said nobody had been able to give her assurances as to what would happen to those losing the British TV signal.

"A lot of them are elderly people who don't know this is going to hit them. This is really quite outrageous," she said.

Communications Minister Eamon Ryan admitted that the switch-off of the analogue television signal in Wales in the autumn would affect people in the south east of the country.

But he said this was a development that he had no control over and promised that viewers would be able to get British television channels again once the DTT service was made available.

RTE has already upgraded 85pc of its transmission network to provide for digital television, but it needs to carry out work on its minor transmitters to ensure the remaining population -- in parts of the west, north, north west and south -- is also capable of receiving it.

- Michael Brennan Political Correspondent

From the article the following line "This means that people in counties such as Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford and Waterford will have to either pay for cable or satellite television to get British TV channels" indicates how little journalists (note: Michael Brennan Political Correspondent) and politicians know about the subject, again no mention of FTA Sat, Freesat or possible high power DTT from the UK.

Liz McManus has raised this issue many times in the Dail but has never to my knowledge mentioned the free satellite option. She is quoted in the article as saying "A lot of them are elderly people who don't know this is going to hit them. This is really quite outrageous". If she is that outraged by DSO in another country I can't wait for her reaction to our own switchover.

I agree with Eamon Ryan this has nothing to do with him but does he or his Dept. not know about freesat? You don't have to wait for Irish DTT view the UK channels again.

petronius

In dublin what are the chances of getting any of the Welsh DTTV transmitters this month with an attic aerial or would I need an mast?

also could 3rock block out Blaenplwyf

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/wales

Digifriendly

"This means that people in counties such as Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford and Waterford will have to either pay for cable or satellite television to get British TV channels."

As pointed out this is totally misleading. No mention of set top boxes or iDTV's nor of FTA Satellite or Freesat. This really needs to be challenged.

marclt

marclt wrote: »

T
I notice the head of DigitalUK Wales has been very quiet since he asked for overspill information... dare I email him for a third time?!

what info did he ask for?
Last night I had watchable pictures from preseli ch 45 DESPITE having a grid combined in this set up pointed to mt leinster.
I expect it will be very interestin whether I'll have watchable pictures from it when they increase the power.
I won't be complaining.

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

True, but I'm sure things could have been reconfigured so that there was no sharing at all? Mendip and Oxford are adjacent transmitters also, but they use different frequencies. I know there is a bit of sea in the middle but given the history it could have been different.

I notice the head of DigitalUK Wales has been very quiet since he asked for overspill information... dare I email him for a third time?!

A useful guide here. Not sure if we should have a seperate thread monitoring the progress of DSO in Wales??? I'll let the mods make that call!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/8193721.stm

The PSB channnels are not cochannel with Mt Leinster. I don't think the COM operators in the UK are bothered. Kilvey Hill starts today. I think the 19th will be very interesting....

marclt

No, you're right the UK PSB channels aren't. No-one knows if RTE will have their psb channels on a channel used in the UK. They don't seem to want to tell anyone anything! Oh, the mystery!

Kilvey Hill went off air last night at around 1.40am, after the movie on BBC1 finished. The signal is producing a different kind of co-channel on my TG4 reception now... ITV moved to the old BBC2 frequency overnight. This will happen from Preseli also.

I'm guessing that Preseli will switch off around 1.40 also next week - allowing for the film on BBC1 to finish! Can't see anyone complaining if that repeated crime programme on ITV is cut off mid flow!

mrdtv

marclt wrote: »

No, you're right the UK PSB channels aren't. No-one knows if RTE will have their psb channels on a channel used in the UK. They don't seem to want to tell anyone anything! Oh, the mystery!

Kilvey Hill went off air last night at around 1.40am, after the movie on BBC1 finished. The signal is producing a different kind of co-channel on my TG4 reception now... ITV moved to the old BBC2 frequency overnight. This will happen from Preseli also.

I'm guessing that Preseli will switch off around 1.40 also next week - allowing for the film on BBC1 to finish! Can't see anyone complaining if that repeated crime programme on ITV is cut off mid flow!

Yes, it will be white noise as CCI now...

scath

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Regional++Reception/aouth+east-UK+analogue+switch+off.htm

Although the RTÉ NL site may not have mentioned the switchover situation, the Dept of Comms as added info in the new developments section. They also have updated some of the pages so they all reflect the 2010 DTT Launch. Below is the data. The only issue really is the website is not being properly promoted but that is probably because they would want certainty from the BCI by way of contracts with Onevision signed and agree with them and RTÉ the launch timetable and then start promoting the website as they will want to give the public the best impression and certainty

Analogue Terrestrial Television Switch Off in the United Kingdom – Will You be Affected?

Terrestrial Television is television broadcast from the mountaintop to the viewer who receives it through an aerial. Countries are moving from analogue terrestrial television to digital terrestrial television. Digital terrestrial television uses digital technology to transport the information as a stream of data. This means that more programme channels and other content can be transmitted over a digital terrestrial television network

As part of the United Kingdom’s plan to roll out digital terrestrial television in their jurisdiction, they will be switching off their analogue transmitter in Preseli, Wales. This will be happening in two stages, commencing 19th August 2009 and concluding on 16th September 2009.

This will not affect the reception of RTE1, RTE2, TV3 and TG4 by any Irish household in any manner and there is no requirement to make any change to continue to receive these Irish channels.

Who will this Affect?

This switch off will primarily affect residents along the south east coast of Ireland who have been receiving UK terrestrial television stations through an aerial via over-spill from the transmitters in Wales. It will not affect those people who receive these stations as part of a paid service whether that be via satellite, cable, IPTV (internet protocol television) or MMDS (Multichannel Multipoint Distribution Service).

What Will Happen?

From the 19th of August Irish households in the southeast will no longer be able to receive analogue terrestrial BBC2, and on the 16th of September the remaining UK analogue channels (BBC1, HTV, Channel 4, Channel 5) will switch to digital only. This is happening because the Preseli transmitter in Wales will be changing to a digital platform.

Road ahead for Digital Terrestrial Television in Ireland

The Government is also committed to the provision of Digital Terrestrial Television on both free to air public service channels and other commercial channels. We expect these 2 new services to be available next year on our own digital transmission systems.

Where can I get more information?

http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/

Queries can be emailed to digital.television@dcenr.gov.ie.

Information on the UK switchover process is available at http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/ and http://www.digitaltelevision.gov.uk/

The Cush

Another doom and gloom article from the Irish Independent stable - The Wexford People about DSO in Wales. Almost a cut and paste from the previous day's Irish Independent.

Farewell to free TV from UK

BRITISH PULLING PLUG BUT RTE DIGITAL SERVICE DELAYED

By Conor CULLEN
Wednesday August 12 2009

TELEVISION viewers in Co. Wexford and right across the South East will have to either pay for cable or satellite television to get British channels in the future as the British government is switching off its analogue television signal to Wales.

The residents of the South East were once the envy of the country because they were able to pick up the BBC and ITV television signals before RTE came into existence. However, as the British government is switching off its analogue television signal to Wales in the coming months people in counties Wexford, Wicklow and Waterford will have to either pay for cable or satellite television to get British channels.

A private RTE document estimated that there were still 197,000 people in the country who were dependent on the British television 'spillover' for their free multi-channel viewing.

However, some of these are located in the border counties and are receiving their signal from the North, which is not due to be switched off until 2012.

Labour communications spokesperson Liz McManus said she was concerned at the effect the Welsh switch-off would have on viewers.

'RTE has promised us that people would not lose out, but they clearly are going to lose out with the disaster in relation to Digital Terrestrial Television ( DTT) project,' she said.

The DTT project was meant to provide a free-to-air digital television service, but the private Boxer consortium in charge of rolling it out pulled out of the project last April. RTE has now admitted that it will no longer meet its target of having the service in place by next month.

Ms. McManus, who has raised the issue in the Dáil, said nobody had been able to give her assurances as to what would happen to those losing the British TV signal.

'A lot of them are elderly people who don't know this is going to hit them. This is really quite outrageous,' she said.

Communications Minister Eamon Ryan admitted that the switch-off of the analogue television signal in Wales in the autumn would affect people in the South East of the country.

But he said this was a development that he had no control over and promised that viewers would be able to get British television channels again once the DTT service was made available.

- Conor CULLEN

Digifriendly

Again misinformation re people having to pay for cable or satellite television in order to continue receiving UK channels. Have these people never heard of DTT set top boxes/idTV's or of Freesat? What's more do they never read the forums on these boards?

scath

Obviously not digifriendly. The only way to remedy that is to email them & point them to this board. I have suggested to RTÉ NL before to keep an eye on the boards site as tuning pad for ensuring clear info later when the wider public get to know about DTT. Since then the RTÉ NL website now makes clear the situation, I can't be sure, but I would say it influenced the current clarity on the website then gives a very good impression to the public about RTÉ NL when later the general public get introduced to DTT. Likewise clarity on the DCENR DTT website is important too and likewise gives a better impression. If I see inaccuracies or conflicting info I generally email. I just wish I got paid to do it lol, as part of the project but its hobby of interest to me so I'm happy to help. End of day, I want to just see it come across well, be successful & feel l did my bit and was part of it.

Bulletin boards like here are useful resources for stakeholders IMO to gauge potential FAQ's & get a feel for potential issues it should address. Onevision should use it as an early cheerleader to recruit subscribers with early deals just before launch like Bord Gáis did with the Big Switch.

I have just emailed Liz McManus providing website links where it is mentioned such as http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/1024/1224715113202.html, http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/tv-radio/prepare-for-new-tv-era-that-will--cost-you-more-1441809.html & http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/National+DTT/

watty

More rubbish Journalism.

marclt

Digifriendly wrote: »

Again misinformation re people having to pay for cable or satellite television in order to continue receiving UK channels. Have these people never heard of DTT set top boxes/idTV's or of Freesat? What's more do they never read the forums on these boards?

Who knows, but I've put the fella right. \I got a response too so I'm hoping he'll clarify the situation.. we'll have to read next week's paper to find out!

scath

marclt wrote: »

Who knows, but I've put the fella right. \I got a response too so I'm hoping he'll clarify the situation.. we'll have to read next week's paper to find out!

That's the way to do it, good man marclt. We're better off doing that than just complaining which without the emailing is kinda negative and morale/soul destroying. That way we're more productive and I would point them to here where they can engage with the boards. I also got a reply from the Labour spokesporson. She's aware of Freesat but that the government should be providing the info. The website digitaltelevision.ie mentions the issue but the problem is that the website has not been promoted as the campaign was put back probably awaiting Onevision/BCI/RTENL contracts conclusion before it goes ahead. I'd say its a co-ordination issue the only thing is that the platform group would want to be formed pretty quickly and highlight the website as its first news conference to the media.

I also pointed her to this website which I think will be a help and will ensure she's up to speed on any potential issues to be raised in the Dáil. I receieved a nice reply so fair play.

marclt

scath wrote: »

I also pointed her to this website which I think will be a help and will ensure she's up to speed on any potential issues to be raised in the Dáil. I receieved a nice reply so fair play.

Good man, and of course the Govt. will want to protect the interests of the Irish DTT platform so are unlikely to want to give away details of potential freeview or more guaranteed sat4free/freesat coverage.

It is all coming together too late - but we have been talking about this and putting these views across for quite some time. My main worry will be people signing up to sky or cable (in these difficult times) paying for a service they may not need...

Richard

Digifriendly wrote: »

Can you verify this? When I lived in Bangor, Co. Down I needed an external aerial with masthead amp (no obstructions either out to Irish Sea) to pick up a decent Cambret Hill signal.

Yes. Border was always the best quality, followed by BBC 1 Scotland.

The BBC Mux is on the old BBC 1 Scotland frequency. BBC 1 Scotland temporary moved to the old BBC 1 Scorland frequency. Going to Bangor again at the end of the week so will let you know more then.

Richard

marclt wrote: »

In one summer during the mid nineties, I recall picking up Granada, Central Border and Meridian on top of the usual Wales and TSW/Westcountry. Moving to digital won't be same... to much 'scanning' to be done!!!

Was that 1995?

Over the years I got the following in Bangor:
BBC 1:
Scotland
North West
North East and Cumbria

ITV
Border (Scotland and England versions)
Scottish
Grampian

And the four ROI channels faintly.

I think the lack of regional variations and the fact that all the regions are on satellite these days also makes it less fun!

200motels

Digifriendly wrote: »

"This means that people in counties such as Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford and Waterford will have to either pay for cable or satellite television to get British TV channels."

As pointed out this is totally misleading. No mention of set top boxes or iDTV's nor of FTA Satellite or Freesat. This really needs to be challenged.

I've never been able to pick up the Welsh analogue stations here in Waterford City and I have a fairly good outdoor Aeriel, so I suppose I won't be able to pick up the digital ones either. Anyone know if I will or am I too far away from the source?

tlaavtech

200motels wrote: »

I've never been able to pick up the Welsh analogue stations here in Waterford City and I have a fairly good outdoor Aeriel, so I suppose I won't be able to pick up the digital ones either. Anyone know if I will or am I too far away from the source?

Chances are, we will get a signal but it will be affected by weather conditions. Height will also be a major consideration for line-of-sight to Wales. Where are you in the City?

I will be doing tests on Wednesday both in the City and in Tramore to see what we can see. Will post the results on Wed/Thurs.

200motels

tlaavtech wrote: »

Chances are, we will get a signal but it will be affected by weather conditions. Height will also be a major consideration for line-of-sight to Wales. Where are you in the City?

I will be doing tests on Wednesday both in the City and in Tramore to see what we can see. Will post the results on Wed/Thurs.

Dunmore road not far from Oskars, so I'm fairly low down. Looking forward to your results. Thanks for the reply.

Digifriendly

Richard wrote: »

Was that 1995?

Over the years I got the following in Bangor:
BBC 1:
Scotland
North West
North East and Cumbria

ITV
Border (Scotland and England versions)
Scottish
Grampian

And the four ROI channels faintly.

I think the lack of regional variations and the fact that all the regions are on satellite these days also makes it less fun!

Any idea where Grampian/North East signals came from?

marclt

BBC2 is off air now... went off after The Wire at 00:36.

The low powered BBC multiplex is off air too.

01.17- BBC1 ITV & S4C off air. Five still on air.

Nowso

Bye to Bbc 2 on analog 4 weeks till the rest get switched off

Nowso

Bbc 1 mux now ch 43

scath

I notice http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/Regional++Reception/ is highlighing the East situation. Very good, but no mention again of Sat4free(freesat) option. I will highlight that and see....there is the third option. I have no problem UPC/Sky providing premium services but its not fair to charge for services free on another platform in my opinion. Its a recession and people won't thank the dept for that, even if it UPC/Sky provide jobs here.

Nowso

Analog Itv is Terrible and only bbc n freeview . I may get that freesat box

Nowso

Nowso wrote: »

Analog Itv is Terrible and only bbc n freeview . I may get that freesat box

however the new bbc high power mux is at 61% strength and 100% quality here so I'd expect that when the ITV and 5 muxes start at that power on september 16th,they'll behave the exact same ie in weather conditions like today there should be full reception of itv channel 4 and five with the odd drop out.
I've had no drop out since morning which is seriously impressing me.

given that none of the psb muxes from presely are co channel with mt leinster,I'm confident now that anyone that had half decent presely analogue reception normally will have good digital after september 16th.
The new 8k transmission system is really stabilising the signal! compared to analogue,theres no comparison at all.
So I wouldnt worry about the poor analogue tonigh,I'd concentrate on what the higher power,higher quality bbc a mux is doing and it's doing great!


It's all good.

martin12

Reading from a uk forum there are reports
people in Co Waterford are picking up the
BBC mux looks promising

200motels

I'm in Waterford city and can't pick it up.

The poster on digital spy was on high ground near the comeraghs and probably had a wide band grid aerial pointed to a deflector that is probably roughly in the same direction as presely for them.

200 motels - at a minimum you would need a group b aerial and a masthead amp pointed in the presely direction and no obstacles.
I doubt you have that?

Nowso

Bbc 4 - interactive mux isnt great and had a long drop outs ch49 is on and only got to around 26percent.

Nowso

Nowso wrote: »

Bbc 4 - interactive mux isnt great and had a long drop outs ch49 is on and only got to around 26percent.

Those are low power.

To repeat,the BBC a mux is working reliably in these weather conditions on the higher power.

Don't moan about the other presely muxes as they are still on the old and low power system untill september 16th.

Please UNDERSTAND and TAKE ON BOARD the point I've made that these services should be very reliable when they switch to the new high power system like th BBC A mux is using since today.
This won't happen untill september 16th.

Do you understand??

Last contribution for now from me.
I might post again on september 16th with an analysis of the rest of the change over as we'll have the situation confirmed then.

200motels

Deleted User wrote: »

The poster on digital spy was on high ground near the comeraghs and probably had a wide band grid aerial pointed to a deflector that is probably roughly in the same direction as presely for them.

200 motels - at a minimum you would need a group b aerial and a masthead amp pointed in the presely direction and no obstacles.
I doubt you have that?

Your dead right I don't have that, to be quite honest I don't really know what I have up on the roof in terms of technical stuff, all I know is I can pick up Irish analogue and digital channels and four main English channels from a deflector system from Dunmore East and the reception of the English channels are poor enough.

tlaavtech

200motels wrote: »

Your dead right I don't have that, to be quite honest I don't really know what I have up on the roof in terms of technical stuff, all I know is I can pick up Irish analogue and digital channels and four main English channels from a deflector system from Dunmore East and the reception of the English channels are poor enough.

I think that you will be better off getting some kind of FreeSat service. You would need a clear line of sight to Wales, so if you are on the lower level of the dunmore road, you will need one hell of a tall aerial - You would need to be getting above the houses on the Mount Pleasant side!

Nowso

It may be sep 30th before they all change As they said everyone would need to retune then.

watty

All Welsh Analogue Switch off discussion here now:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055658286