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Screwing the banks because they screwed us!

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    #32
    luckyfrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭luckyfrank


    You cant screw that banks there the one's with the penis's we the public are the one's with the pussies

    The goverment could have castrated one or two of them but they were impotent


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    #33
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    You cant screw that banks there the one's with the penis's we the public are the one's with the pussies

    The goverment could have castrated one or two of them but they were impotent

    And courtesy of said-same scummy government, if we screw the banks then they come-a-running for that guarantee and we're all screwed anyway.

    No responsibility for their own actions, because - like the government - when they screw up they can always get a few more quid from the easily-targetted PAYE taxpayer.


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    #34
    Kama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭Kama


    Freudian pschoanalysis of the bailouts? I like it!

    :D


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    #35
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    Last 10-15 years credit has being flowing like water.

    There was obviously going to be an end to this and now we have the opposite situation in which the banks are being over cautious as opposed to being reckless lending and we have people claiming its not fair.

    If a bank decided a business isnt viable even though it has been running through the good times.... Then maybe it should never have been given credit in the 1st place.

    It comes down to who decides if the business is viable. The only people who can do that realitically are the banks and if they all turn down a business for credit then im sorry to say that business probably aint viable.


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    #36
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    The country still needs banks though, might as well save the ones that are there but just regulate them more... again 8 years too late.

    People can scream all they want about bailing out the banks but anyone who has taken a loan or anything of the sort and lived of credit can blame themselves just as much!


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    #37
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Agent J wrote: »
    It comes down to who decides if the business is viable. The only people who can do that realitically are the banks and if they all turn down a business for credit then im sorry to say that business probably aint viable.

    Hang on a sec....the BANK'S OWN HISTORY over the last few years has made the banks themselves unviable, to the point where we had to bail them out!

    So forgive me if I refuse to take the opinion of a bank that isn't viable as an indication whether another business is viable.

    If I got €15 billion after making crap business decisions that ran me into the ground, I'd still be viable, too!


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    #38
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    mikep wrote: »
    I'm really pissed off with the bankers as are most people.
    We are all aware that they aren't giving credit to small businesses which is driving some to the wall.
    I just had a thought although probably too simple, inspired by the lady in Kerry who orgainsed a protest to force the government to make the banks do their bit to help small businesses
    I wonder could people power work?
    Here's my plan...all who have deposits in irish banks transfer them to an overseas provider (rabo or halifax etc), when doing so insist that you see the manager of the branch and let them know why this is being done...(i.e. tell them how pissed off you are with them and what they have done..start being a bank for the people who use them...not their investors.. in anyway you see fit!!) if enough people do this the word will filter up to the top brass the something has to be done or they go out of business!
    Before everybody starts jumping up and down about how this will ruin the irish banks or how the depositers will loose money...just think about it...make different suggestions..there has to be a way to stick it to these gob****es....


    :rolleyes:


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    #39
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Hang on a sec....the BANK'S OWN HISTORY over the last few years has made the banks themselves unviable, to the point where we had to bail them out!

    Yes. You are correct. However their business model involved making unwise lending choices. They are now going to the other side and being over catious and people are admonishing them for it.

    Liam Byrne wrote: »


    So forgive me if I refuse to take the opinion of a bank that isn't viable as an indication whether another business is viable.
    As is your right.

    However. Whos opinion will you take then? Who has the ability to do what you need?
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    If I got €15 billion after making crap business decisions that ran me into the ground, I'd still be viable, too!

    Some banks are needed. Others should have been let go to the wall.


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    #40
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Agent J wrote: »
    It comes down to who decides if the business is viable. The only people who can do that realitically are the banks and if they all turn down a business for credit then im sorry to say that business probably aint viable.
    Here's the dilemma: what if the business is viable with credit, but not viable without it?

    In other words, if a bank would make credit available to the business as required, the business would make a profit, repay the credit, contribute to the bank's profit, create employment, increase tax revenue...

    ...but if the banks decide not to make credit available, the business goes bust.

    Does that mean the banks are re-defining "viable businesses" to mean "businesses that don't need banks"?

    Does anyone else see a problem with this picture?


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    #41
    Spudmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    No because a viable business is one that if given credit, will make a profit and keep employing people... and pay the bank back of course.

    A business that isn't viable is one that is doomed to fail regardless of whether it gets credit or not!


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    #42
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    But we're being told that the banks are the best judges of business viability - the same banks that lent too willingly a year ago, and won't lend at all now.

    Excuse me if I remain skeptical.


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    #43
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Here's the dilemma: what if the business is viable with credit, but not viable without it?

    In other words, if a bank would make credit available to the business as required, the business would make a profit, repay the credit, contribute to the bank's profit, create employment, increase tax revenue...

    ...but if the banks decide not to make credit available, the business goes bust.

    Does that mean the banks are re-defining "viable businesses" to mean "businesses that don't need banks"?

    Does anyone else see a problem with this picture?

    There is a slight flaw in your otherwise sound logic. You assume that if the business is given credit that it will make a profit. This isnt a certainty.

    Of course there is an old saying that in order to get money from the banks you have to prove you dont need it.

    See i think the banks have swung to ther other extreme and are possibly playing it too safely but on the other hand there is the elephant in the room that a lot of businesses are going to fail and the banks cant really afford to take any more hits.

    As someone else had said during the good times when money was flowing freely there wasnt any complaints but now that tap has been shut off. Consideration must be given to people/businesses who got credit back then that maybe shouldnt have.


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    #44
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Agent J wrote: »
    There is a slight flaw in your otherwise sound logic. You assume that if the business is given credit that it will make a profit. This isnt a certainty.
    I made no such assumption - I'm making the point that some businesses that would otherwise be viable may become unviable due to the denial of credit.
    Consideration must be given to people/businesses who got credit back then that maybe shouldnt have.
    Again, I'm not talking about them. It's a little facile to dismiss the problem of the banks destroying viable businesses with an airy "maybe they're going a little too far..." - the entire point of the existence of banks is to lend money. If they're not lending money, what purpose do they serve?

    Case in point: my 4-year-old business had, up to this year, leased five vans from a number of leasing companies (basically, whoever the garage in question was an agent for). This year I wanted to trade up two of the vans for brand-new ones. Could I get new leases? Eventually - sort of. Never missed a payment, more turnover and profit than at any time previously when taking out a lease - not that they asked before.

    This isn't a minor problem of the banks over-correcting their practices slightly. It's a systemic failure on the part of the banks to fulful their reason for existing in an economy, and it's going to damage the economy further if something isn't done about it.


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    #45
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I made no such assumption - I'm making the point that some businesses that would otherwise be viable may become unviable due to the denial of credit.
    Fine, Point accepted. But you didnt make that distinction in your original post.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Again, I'm not talking about them. It's a little facile to dismiss the problem of the banks destroying viable businesses with an airy "maybe they're going a little too far..." - the entire point of the existence of banks is to lend money. If they're not lending money, what purpose do they serve?

    Again we come back to the issue of "Viable business". Truth is we don't know which ones are viable and which ones arent. The business owners have a bias as do the banks. However no business ower is going to want to admit that their business is not viable.

    The entire point of banks is to make money, They do that through lending and deposits. Right now they dont have the deposit base to do the lending. The money which is being pumped in by the government is to try and plug the gap due to the collapse in the economy. It is not nearly enough to allow "business as usual". If the government didnt they the remaining loans/deposits would collapse and all hell would break loose. Which means any lending they do has to be overly prudent for the time being.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    This isn't a minor problem of the banks over-correcting their practices slightly. It's a systemic failure on the part of the banks to fulful their reason for existing in an economy, and it's going to damage the economy further if something isn't done about it.

    Banks are there to make money 1st and foremost. Never take your eye off that.

    What do you propose be done? Anglo Irish has been nationalised and hasnt lent a red cent in the last 6 months.


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    #46
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Agent J wrote: »
    Fine, Point accepted. But you didnt make that distinction in your original post.
    My bad; I thought it was implicit.
    Again we come back to the issue of "Viable business". Truth is we don't know which ones are viable and which ones arent. The business owners have a bias as do the banks. However no business ower is going to want to admit that their business is not viable.
    Question is, why do we trust the banks to make that call? If banks are so systemic to the economy that we have to dramatically increase our national debt in order to prop them up, then shouldn't we also be ensure that they, y'know, fulfil their systemic role?

    More to the point, we can't afford to allow the banks to destroy potentially viable businesses by being as casual in their refusal to offer credit as they have been in their profligacy in the past. We seem to be saying that it was wrong of the banks to over-inflate the credit bubble, but it's perfectly OK for them to equally carelessly destroy the credit lifeblood that many businesses depend on.
    The entire point of banks is to make money...
    Let me stop you there. I'm not talking about banks in isolation. Taking a bank in isolation, it's a business, and if it fails, who cares: businesses fail.

    But that's not the attitude we're taking to the banks. We talk about their systemic importance to the economy. We understand that they perform a function without which the economy doesn't function: they lend money. So we have to save the banks.

    But what's the point in saving the banks if they then fail to fulfil their role as a key component of the economy?
    The money which is being pumped in by the government is to try and plug the gap due to the collapse in the economy. It is not nearly enough to allow "business as usual".
    Nobody's asking for business as usual; that's what brought us to where we are.
    If the government didnt they the remaining loans/deposits would collapse and all hell would break loose. Which means any lending they do has to be overly prudent for the time being.
    No, it doesn't have to be "overly prudent", it just has to be prudent. That would be a change for the good, right there.

    Being overly prudent is a bad thing. We could introduce a blanket 10km/h speed limit on all Irish roads, including motorways, but I don't see anybody advocating it.
    Banks are there to make money 1st and foremost. Never take your eye off that.
    That equation changed when they started getting billions in taxpayers money. They owe us now.
    What do you propose be done? Anglo Irish has been nationalised and hasnt lent a red cent in the last 6 months.
    For a start, it would be nice if the banks actually asked to see some accounts before refusing to even talk to a potential borrower.


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    #47
    barryfield
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭barryfield


    Dob74 wrote: »
    The banks have a right to lend, to whom ever they want to.
    If it is profitable for them to lend, then they will lend.
    If a business has to be lent money to keep it going it probably isnt a viable business.
    Banks are not the only place to access credit.
    And the fact that banks where doleing out money to freely. Is the reason for the economic mess where in. Its no harm that banks dont automaticly give out loans to everyone.

    far removed from reality , probably an irish public servant with an irish public servants iq


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    #48
    KatieMalone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭KatieMalone


    screw the banks????

    you screw the banks you end up in jail, they screw you they end up in the Bahamas.


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    #49
    KatieMalone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26 ✭KatieMalone


    barryfield wrote: »
    far removed from reality , probably an irish public servant with an irish public servants iq

    agreed. yer man is living in disneyland.


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    #50
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    so are the banks in this country "viable"
    because we the taxpayer had to lend them money to keep trading


    The banks in this country are not viable.
    Its a shame we bailed them out.


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    #51
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    barryfield wrote: »
    far removed from reality , probably an irish public servant with an irish public servants iq

    The aim of business is to make money.
    Not to get in debt to the bank.

    The banks by doleing out loans to everyone who wanted one, pushed the price of everything up to an unrealistic level.
    Giving loans out to cover day to day expenses is only going to paper over the cracks of a business not fix it.


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    #52
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Giving loans out to cover day to day expenses is only going to paper over the cracks of a business not fix it.

    And bailing out the banks that made crap business decisions is......?


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    #53
    Dob74
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And bailing out the banks that made crap business decisions is......?

    Papering over the cracks, of a corrupt banking system.


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    #54
    j1smithy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭j1smithy


    mikep wrote: »
    I'm really pissed off with the bankers as are most people.
    We are all aware that they aren't giving credit to small businesses which is driving some to the wall.
    I just had a thought although probably too simple, inspired by the lady in Kerry who orgainsed a protest to force the government to make the banks do their bit to help small businesses
    I wonder could people power work?
    Here's my plan...all who have deposits in irish banks transfer them to an overseas provider (rabo or halifax etc), when doing so insist that you see the manager of the branch and let them know why this is being done...(i.e. tell them how pissed off you are with them and what they have done..start being a bank for the people who use them...not their investors.. in anyway you see fit!!) if enough people do this the word will filter up to the top brass the something has to be done or they go out of business!
    Before everybody starts jumping up and down about how this will ruin the irish banks or how the depositers will loose money...just think about it...make different suggestions..there has to be a way to stick it to these gob****es....

    Let me get this right you want to organise a run on all Irish banks? Do you not think we are in enough trouble already?!


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    #55
    j1smithy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 605 ✭✭✭j1smithy


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And bailing out the banks that made crap business decisions is......?

    a necessary evil. If the banks go down, we do too.


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    #56
    BornToKill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,053 ✭✭✭BornToKill


    barryfield wrote: »
    far removed from reality , probably an irish public servant with an irish public servants iq

    You could have made your point without gratuitously insulting the employees of the public service. This standard of debate is just depressing and is not productive.


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    #57
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    j1smithy wrote: »
    a necessary evil. If the banks go down, we do too.

    You mean it can get worse,:eek: it's a bloody disaster atm.:mad:


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    #58
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    mikep wrote: »
    Here's my plan...all who have deposits in irish banks transfer them to an overseas provider (rabo or halifax etc), when doing so insist that you see the manager of the branch and let them know why this is being done...
    You really think transferring the €50 you made on your Confirmation Day is going to make a difference?

    Here's how it works - the banks 'buy' money wholesale on the International market, then bend us over a desk and ride us mercilessly for the term of our car loans/mortgages.

    The funds banks sit on from domestic retail banking deposits are minimal.


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    #59
    mikep
    Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭mikep


    OK...so my op was a bit of a rant but someone close to me is on the verge of losing their VIABLE business due the bank cutting off their access to credit.

    I guess what most people are saying is we have to put up with it and feck all can be done...Great!!!!


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