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Lisbon Treaty Qoutes
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28-06-2009 2:55pm#1
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »Sigh, you naughty No voters.
BTW you still haven't adressed my point.
They are are all backed up now. My sincere apologies.
What a day! 
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »No, you stated an opinion about his dealing with the issue, AuRevoir insulted him personally. Big Difference.
Oh, and I know you're new but all complaints should be handeled at the Help Desk.
Haha, how is that insulting someone? You seem a bit paranoid ( now that's insulting someone
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »You know that politicians don't decide their own policies, they act on the advice of govermental think-tanks.
Ofcourse politicians decide on their policies. The make the FINAL decisions. It's their job!
He ment thats it's simple to see that the The Treaty is good for the functioning of the EU and it was an easy choice for any one that new anything worth knowing about how Europe works.
If it was really that simple then why did the majority vote No?! The fact is the treaty was unreadable. The people who did read it discovered how bad a deal it was. Also, most who knew anything worth knowing about how Europe, or rather the EU works Iwasfrozen, voted No.
I'm not interested in his side, I'm interested in his quote.
5m people have the say for 400m people ? That's nonsense.
We shouldn't be having a referendum in the first place.
So you're saying Ireland shouldn't have a say on something that will change their Constitution and affect each and every one of them?! Are you joking?! You're obviously very influenced by the EU elites who decided to ignore the pleas of the 60-70% of the people in the EU who said the wanted a chance to vote on the treaty. They were denied this right. Are you saying we should also be denied this right?
Funny how anyone that is for the treaty is pathetic. :rolleyes:
Yeah, it is funny isn't it, and not surprising! Refusing to listen to the arguments of the No side and not giving any valid reasons, backed up with reference to the text, would make the Yes side pathetic in their arguments.
Do you realise the size of Germany and France compared to the size of Ireland ?
Why should one Irish citizen get more of a say in the E.U than one German citizen ?
Ireland, just like Germany is a member of the EU. Why should Ireland's voting weight be halved to below 1% and Germany's ballooned? Population shouldn't matter that much, as by this method, it will mean the larger countries controlling the EU, with the smaller ones, i.e., Ireland, having no say. This is neither fair nor right.
Stop putting words into my mouth. Where did I say an Irish citizen should have more of a say than a German one? I'm saying they should both have a fair say. Why should Ireland have such a small voting power and Germany such a large? We're both members of the institution, we both give as much as we can to the EU, therefore we should be treated equally.
Doesn't matter if they listened to him or not, thats an expert in his field telling people that Lisbon is good for farmers.
I'm not surprised petty ignotant average Joe farmers don't listen to him.
Excuse me, you just called farmers 'petty' and 'ignotant'. How dare you! I have relatives who are farmers and I find your descriptions of them insulting. They are hard-working and have a demanding, tough job. They were concerned about the treaty and concerned for Ireland, just like the majority of voters. That is no reason to call them 'petty' and 'ignotant'.
He is certainly not an expert on Lisbon though, is he? He accepted the rubbish Cowen fed him with.
Whatever Kenny did say about Europe was the truth and I'd trust him alot quicker than Choir or Mary ellen Synon.
Can you please learn to spell their names? I trust Enda Kenny, just not on Lisbon. I'm a fine Gael supporter but like a lot of others, have decided to be ruled by my own decision. How do you know what Enda said was the truth? How did even Enda know what he said was the truth? The fact is, even the Yes side believed anything that came out of Brussels. They offered no reasons as to why to vote Yes, they only attacked the No side.
Libertas where lying, even No voters agree on that now.
Libertas were not lying. They took the initiative to read up on the Lisbon Treaty and analyse it, unlike the Yes side. They made facts and backed them up with eveidence. This was in short supply on the Yes side. Also, not one No voter I have met said that Libertas were lying. I don't know where you got your information from because it was wrong.
And what exactly would we lose ?
We would lose our commissioner ( don't quote the guarantees, even some supporters of the treaty have accepted that they are useless ). We would also lose 50 of our vetoes. I'll name them all from an EU website if you wish. Also, it's not just what we'd lose but how we'd be affected concerning certain issues. To name but a few:
1. Establish a legally quite new European Union in the constitutional form of a Federal EU State. This new EU based on the Lisbon Treaty would have the same name but would be fundamentally different from the present EU, which was founded by the 1993 Maastricht Treaty. Lisbon would turn Ireland into a provincial or regional state within this new Union, with the EU's Constitution and laws being made superior to the Irish Constitution and laws in any case of conflict between the two. It would be the end of Ireland's position as an independent sovereign State in the international community of States (Arts.1 and 47 TEU; Declaration No.17 concerning Primacy);
2. Turn us all into real citizens for the first time of this new post-Lisbon European Union, owing obedience to its laws and loyalty to its authority over and above our obedience and loyalty to Ireland and the Irish Constitution and laws. One can only be a citizen of a State. We would retain our Irish citizenship, but it would be subordinate to our EU Federal citizenship, as is normal for citizens of Federal States such as Germany, the USA, Switzerland, Canada etc. (Art.9 TEU);
3. Be a power-grab by the Big States for control of this new Union. By basing EU law-making primarily on population size, the Lisbon Treaty would double Germany's say on the EU Council of Ministers from 8% to 17%. France's say would go from 8% today to 13%, Britain's and Italy's from their current 8% to 12% each. Ireland's voting weight on a population basis would be more than halved to 1% (Art.16 TEU);4. Give the EU Court of Justice the power to rule against Ireland's 12.5% company tax rate if it decides that this is a "distortion of competition" as compared with Germany's 30% rate (Art.113 TFEU). Lisbon would also give the EU the power to impose its own EU taxes directly on us for the first time (Art.311 TFEU);
4. Copperfasten last December's Laval/Vaxholm judgement of the EU Court of Justice, which makes it illegal for Governments or Trade Unions to enforce pay standards higher than the minimum wage for migrant workers;6. Remove any Irish voice from the EU Commission, the body which has the monopoly of proposing all EU laws, for five years out of every 15 (Art.17.5 TEU);
5. Abolish our right to decide who the Irish Commissioner is when it comes to our turn to be on the Commission, replacing it by a right to make "suggestions" only for the new Commission President to decide (Art.17.7 TEU);
6. Hand over to the EU the power to make laws binding on us in 32 new policy areas, such as crime, justice and policing, public services, immigration, energy, transport, tourism, sport, culture, public health, the EU budget etc.;
7. Give the EU Court of Justice the power to decide our rights as EU citizens. Ireland's Supreme Court would no longer have the final say on what our rights are (Art.6 TEU);
8. Be a self-amending Treaty which would permit the EU Prime Ministers to shift most of the remaining policy areas where unanimity still exists, to majority voting, without a need for new EU Treaties or referendums (Art.48 TEU);
9. Militarize the EU further, requiring Member States "to progressively improve their military capabilities" and to go to the defence of other Member States in the event of war (Art.42.7 TEU).
He was simply stating the obvious, unlike Libertas.
Well, the blatant obvious. I think the Irish were pretty aware there was a referendum coming up
. Libertas didn't state the obvious, so yeah you're right there, for the simple reason that there was nothing obvious about that treaty. They had to strenuously crawl through the treaty, unlike what the government did. Libertas stated the truth - that the treaty was, is and will always be bad for Ireland.
Do you know anything about Europe, you're displaying average No voter ignorance. The Constitution states the Irish sovereignty belongs to the people not the Government and that any agree ment that impacts on Irish sovereignty must be put to the people, but the High court ruled last year that a referendum was not needed as Lisbon does not impact on sovereignty enough to warrant one.
The only reason we are having a referendum is because we live in a Republic and if the Government wanted they could ratify it via the Dáil without a referendum.
Hmmm, so your calling the 53% of No voters ignorant! You seem to have a lot of negative views on people. The reason we're having a referendum is because the treaty changes our Constitution and because of the court case. I have just realised that everything you have just said must be rubbish for you to believe that the Dáil could ratify the treaty. Brian Cowen HAD to go to the people. He had no choice. See my points above. If the EU had the opportunity, we wouldn't have a vote, just like the other 26 member states. The fact is, we have to have a referendum on the treaty, the government have NO choice. Otherwise, we would be silenced like the rest of the EU.
I think Eamons advicers and lawyers know a little bit more about the treaty than you do.
How do you know? Eamon Gilmore completely denied that there should be another referendum, yet now he's in full support for it. He, like the other politicians, have given no reasons, with reference to the text, as to why we should vote Yes. So what exactly does Eamon Gilmore know? NOTHING.0
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