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Seven out of 10 favour immigration restrictions

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    #32
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    To illustrate the point that we've signed up for the EU, and that means taking the rough with the smooth.

    I don't buy the idea that a country with rising unemployment is under threat of mass immigration. There wasn't a whole lot of immigration in the 1980s.

    There was no free movement of labour bar from Britain back then.

    Why would British people move from an advanced economy(UK) to a basket case(Ireland) in the 80s?:rolleyes:


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gurramok wrote: »
    Why would British people move from an advanced economy(UK) to a basket case(Ireland) in the 80s?:rolleyes:

    Thousands came to turn on, tune in and drop out, certainly around South Kerry and West Cork anyway.

    Not that I'n complaining, far from it, the influx of non nationals, hippies or not, British or Eastern European, has greatly improved my social life and transformed communities around here. Can't be enough getting in as far as I'm concerned.


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    #34
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Hookey wrote: »
    The hypocrisy comes from the fact that we're quite happy to feed at the teat of the EU, but we tend to forget the obligations that come with it. We took a chance on opening up to the accession states early and fully, and we benefited from it. Now times are tough, people want to backtrack.

    I have no problem with points-based entry and restrictions for non-EU citizens, but the EU isn't some menu where we can pick and mix only the bits we like.

    As for the comments from others on here about Brits, don't be ridiculous. There's a damn sight more of us over there, than them over here.

    People are entitled to their opinions. We will never try to roll back our open labour market for the countries already included. Future entrants to the EU will be subject to the same rules as we imposed on Romania and Bulgaria.

    Our problems are not a result of mass immigration, but it is a factor and to deny that would be to deny reality. Would there of been such a rush to invest in property if there was not a ready rental market hungry for accomodation. A large portion came from immigrants.While there is an element of the chicken and the egg scenario in regards to this argument but it does have merit.

    I am not saying that immigrants are responsible for the housing bubble, but it has to be asked. If they hadnt come in such great numbers would the bubble of grew as quick??


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    #35
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Why should we, I would imagine of you check the numbers as many Irish people go over there every year as British people come here.
    Well that would depend on what sort of timescale you’re talking about.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    The British might be one of the biggest non-national groups but that's because they're our nearest neighbour and movement between the two islands is a two-way process that has been going on for a long time.
    A two-way process? Hardly. Irish-born people in the UK numbered over half a million in the last UK census (2001). British nationals in Ireland numbered about 112,000 in 2006. Granted, those figures will likely have changed a bit in the intervening years, but to the point that parity has been established? I doubt it.
    O'Morris wrote: »
    Britain is our next-door neighbours and we have a shared history with them that we don't have with the eastern Europeans.
    Irrelevant from an economic perspective.
    MiniDriver wrote: »
    Because Irish people are more dependant on the British labour market than British are dependant on the Irish labour market.
    Exactly. So on the one hand people call for a halt to migration from Eastern Europe, while at the same time they insist that Irish people be allowed access to the British labour market – complete hypocrisy.


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    #36
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    Over what sort of sample was the poll carried out? Using what criteria? Its pretty shoddy journalism to publish the results of a poll and not even tell how large the sample was.

    Then again it is the Sunday Independent................:rolleyes:


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    #37
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why stop at the accession states? We should close our borders to all foreigners, while still demanding our right to live and work freely elsewhere in the Union. We should selectively apply import tariffs on agricultural goods that compete with home-produced equivalents, while still freely exporting. We should make sure that only Irish fishermen can fish Irish waters, but also allow them to fish elsewhere in the EU. We should continue to use the Euro, but set our own interest rates.

    I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

    Yawn....

    People have a right to say they want immigration reduced. This is a democracy and freedom of speech is allowed.

    Your off-topic rants about fishing and interest rates are ridiculous and a childish attempt to stop the debate.


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    People have a right to say they want immigration reduced. This is a democracy and freedom of speech is allowed.
    Since when did "freedom of speech" mean "freedom not to have to listen to a differing opinion"?
    Your off-topic rants about fishing and interest rates are ridiculous and a childish attempt to stop the debate.
    If I wanted to stop the debate, I'd lock the thread - then you'd have something to complain about.

    I offered a contrary perspective - how unspeakably evil of me. I hope you'll recover.

    Ironically, you've dragged the thread off-topic. Let's get back on now, please.


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    #39
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    Ironically, you've dragged the thread off-topic. Let's get back on now, please.

    No, I didn't, you did.

    But anyway from my perspective I would like us to follow the example set by UKIP. For anyone who is interested click here


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    #40
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    No, I didn't, you did.
    Breaking news: disagreeing with the OP isn't going off-topic. Arguing about whether or not we're off-topic is off-topic. Let's stay on topic - that's not a suggestion.
    But anyway from my perspective I would like us to follow the example set by UKIP. For anyone who is interested click here
    The UKIP want the UK out of the EU. If you want Ireland out of the EU, fine - but I suspect you won't find too many who'll agree with that perspective.


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    #41
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    No, I didn't, you did.

    But anyway from my perspective I would like us to follow the example set by UKIP. For anyone who is interested click here

    So you want Ireland to leave the EU? Seriously?


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    #42
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    Hookey wrote: »
    So you want Ireland to leave the EU? Seriously?

    Yes, 100%.

    I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.


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    #43
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Yay for the glory days pre-EU. Back then, when tens of thousands of foreigners crossed your border, they did it in tanks.

    Ah, happy days.


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    #44
    sineadCharl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 51 ✭✭sineadCharl


    My god it's like listening to the Joe Duffy show and yes it is excruciating!!!


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    #45
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    Yes, 100%.

    I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.

    Firstly i would ask-Why?

    Secondly-Re: anti-Eu parties

    Libertas didn't do too well in the European elections recently did they? Please give examples of anti-EU parties which are "on the rise".


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    #46
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Why stop at the accession states? We should close our borders to all foreigners, while still demanding our right to live and work freely elsewhere in the Union. We should selectively apply import tariffs on agricultural goods that compete with home-produced equivalents, while still freely exporting. We should make sure that only Irish fishermen can fish Irish waters, but also allow them to fish elsewhere in the EU. We should continue to use the Euro, but set our own interest rates.

    I can't see the other 26 member states having an issue with any of this.

    Will you stop.

    The poll indicates that there is a strong desire to impose temporary restrictions on the Accession States. We have over 400,000 on the dole, 20% of which are foreign, and a further 40,0000 foreigners gaining PPS numbers this year. Do you think this is sustainable?

    We should now impose a work permit system like Germany and Austria. We cannot provide employment for those already in the country never mind more immigrants.


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    #47
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    Yes, 100%.

    I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.

    Anti-EU parties are on the rise because these parties are attractive to the disaffected during times of recession. They're as much a protest vote against incumbent governments as anything else. It doesn't mean they're remotely correct though, and it doesn't mean they're ever likely to get majority support. Most people are pragmatic enough to know the EU is better than the fragmented alternative, unable to match the economies of south and east Asia, and pretty likely to turn on each other after about five minutes if the EU broke up.

    About the only thing Ireland has going for it is access to the internal market. Yes, we've lost out to Eastern Europe as costs have risen, but that's inevitable, just as its also inevitable that their costs will rise as ours fall to compete. This levelling out is the whole point of the EU. There will always be differences in standards of living between EU countries (e.g. productivity, which allows expensive Germany to keep a manufacturing base where the UK failed), but the gap will narrow, as has been proven by ourselves and countries like Greece, Spain and even Italy. An isolated Ireland has very little to offer the world apart from tourism, and ironically, a population willing to travel to get work.


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    #48
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yay for the glory days pre-EU. Back then, when tens of thousands of foreigners crossed your border, they did it in tanks.

    Ah, happy days.

    Yes....the swinging 40's....And what a hedonistic paradise our small Island was.


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    #49
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    Hookey wrote: »
    Ah, how soon we forget. For 150 years we've been the immigrants (I myself worked abroad for nearly 20 years), we get a few years of immigration and we want to pull up the drawbridge. Hypocrites.

    As it happens, it doesn't matter anyway, as your average Pole wasn't here for our fine weather and our pleasant dispositions. As the jobs dry up, they're going elsewhere anyway.

    America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world. Are they hypocrites?

    It does matter, evidence suggest that the immigrants are staying, and a further 40,000 arrived this year.

    "In May Alan Barrett, an economist with the ESRI, in a paper titled The Labour Market in Recession suggested that during a downturn, migrant workers do not immediately go home.
    "A significant proportion of immigrants appear to be reacting to job losses by remaining here," Mr Barrett said.
    He said this could be explained by labour market conditions abroad, but he added that "welfare entitlement here may also be playing a role".


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    #50
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes....the swinging 40's....And what a hedonistic paradise our small Island was.

    I could think of a lot worse places in the world to spend that particular decade.


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    #51
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Hookey sez....
    There will always be differences in standards of living between EU countries (e.g. productivity, which allows expensive Germany to keep a manufacturing base where the UK failed),

    Now there IS a very pertinent post.
    America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world. Are they hypocrites?

    Agreed PaulieD,and its a truly annoying thing for many to admit,just as the USA with a very large and thriving Muslim population represents THE destination of choice for thousands more.....much to the discombobulation of the REAL Muslims in deepest Pakistan or Afghanistan etc......Funny Ol world Innit ???


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #52
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    PaulieD wrote: »
    America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world. Are they hypocrites?

    Yes. Unquestionably.
    PaulieD wrote: »
    It does matter, evidence suggest that the immigrants are staying, and a further 40,000 arrived this year.

    "In May Alan Barrett, an economist with the ESRI, in a paper titled The Labour Market in Recession suggested that during a downturn, migrant workers do not immediately go home.
    "A significant proportion of immigrants appear to be reacting to job losses by remaining here," Mr Barrett said.
    He said this could be explained by labour market conditions abroad, but he added that "welfare entitlement here may also be playing a role".

    I notice you rather selectively quote here. He also says that immigrants are losing their jobs at a far faster rate than native Irish and are then less likely to get a new job. If they've worked already, then they're entitled to social welfare like anyone else (although we pay everyone too much anyway, a separate debate), and if they haven't worked in the first place, they're less likely to "steal our jobs" (because employers, conciously or otherwise aren't letting that happen), and they won't get social welfare because they haven't paid PRSI.


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    #53
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    Yes, 100%.

    I actually believe the EU will disintegrate anyway before Ireland chooses to leave. Anti-EU parties are on the rise all across Europe.

    While I believe in leaner times we need to be a bit more cautious about free movement of labour into our economy this is akin to throwing the baby out with the bath water.

    The EU is one of the single biggest reasons for our prosperity. We were the choice of many American multi-naitonals because of our low corporation tax and proximity to Europe. This included our membership of the EU.

    Who do you think paid for most of the new roads around the country. Dont tell me you believe it was our Government??


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    #54
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PaulieD wrote: »
    America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world.
    So what? Both admit large numbers of immigrants every year. I'm not sure why the US and Australia are cited so often in discussions on immigration.
    PaulieD wrote: »
    It does matter, evidence suggest that the immigrants are staying, and a further 40,000 arrived this year.
    Prove it.


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    #55
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    Wheely wrote: »
    Firstly i would ask-Why?

    Secondly-Re: anti-Eu parties

    Libertas didn't do too well in the European elections recently did they? Please give examples of anti-EU parties which are "on the rise".

    I already have, but again:

    UKIP
    PVV
    BZÖ – Jörg Haider's List
    Freedom Party of Austria

    etc.


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    #56
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    Taxipete29 wrote: »

    The EU is one of the single biggest reasons for our prosperity. We were the choice of many American multi-naitonals because of our low corporation tax and proximity to Europe. This included our membership of the EU.

    Are you seriously telling me the EU is responsible for our low corporation tax rate? Unreal.


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    #57
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    PaulieD wrote: »
    America and Australia, two nations built by immigrants have the most stringent immigration policies in the western world. Are they hypocrites?

    Quote from wikipedia: (While I know it's not 100% accurate these figures aren't far off the mark.)

    As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than any other country in the world.[1] In 2006, the number of immigrants totaled 37.5 million.


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    #58
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Yay for the glory days pre-EU. Back then, when tens of thousands of foreigners crossed your border, they did it in tanks.

    Ah, happy days.

    The break up of a political union does not mean war between the various nations.


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    #59
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    Hookey wrote: »
    Anti-EU parties are on the rise because these parties are attractive to the disaffected during times of recession. They're as much a protest vote against incumbent governments as anything else. It doesn't mean they're remotely correct though, and it doesn't mean they're ever likely to get majority support.

    This is not true. You say that if someone is pro-EU, they are highly educated, pragmatic etc., somebody is anti-EU they are protesting about the recession. Makes no sense and is typical of the arrogance of Pro EU supporters.

    BTW, if anyone wants a link to my signature image, I will happily send it on. ;)


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    #60
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    bill_ashmount wrote: »
    I already have, but again:

    UKIP
    PVV
    BZÖ – Jörg Haider's List
    Freedom Party of Austria

    etc.

    Ok yeah fair enough, those parties are all on the rise it would seem. There's very little appetite for an anti-EU party in Ireland tho right? Just going on SF and Libertas performance in the recent elections?

    And you didn't answer my first question, which was, why? As in, why do you want Ireland to cede from the EU?


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    #61
    PaulieD
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 932 ✭✭✭PaulieD


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Prove it.

    PPS numbers
    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx


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