Advert for Broadband.

watty

This is about an advert for Broadband, so please don't move to Midband



If any of these areas have Broadband or O2, Meteor or Vodafone 3G (even if EDGE only, but not GSM/GPRS) then NBS is not bringing Broadband, as you have what "3 Ireland" are bring already (3G Mobile Phone Network).

Look out for your own local paper or Billboards and see if this is offering you something you already have!

Should we complain to ASAI?

If 3 Ireland can advertise their Mobile Phone Network like this, what category is two way Satellite @ 3Mbps?


For those that have not been following the plot, the NBS was awarded to 3 who are simply using using their Mobile Phone network. 3 happened to need to do a major rollout right now anyway. Analysis Mason get €400 per Electoral District covered to "verify" by base station stats (which is no verification at all) that the ED is 95% population covered (indoor modems). If you are in an ED with more than 60% BB coverage then the Scheme does not apply.
If your ED is NBS covered and you get the modem (USB 3G/HSPA stick) and it doesn't "work", up to 5% are 8% are allowed Satellite (VSAT), but it's a service from Avanti which doesn't exist and may never exist.
As users are added and people use the mobile phones on the mast the speed quickly drops and latency increases, so 1MBps may become only 100kbps after 6 months of growth.
http://www.radioway.info/comparewireless/CompareHSPAandFixed-v4.html
You may not even connect reliably after 3 to 6months:

(In reality the mast usually has 3 pizza / petal shaped sectors that slightly overlap, the diagram applies to one sector.)

The claimed up to speed applies to less than 15% of the area served by mast

With 10 simultaneous traffic users, a user more than 1/2 the mast range (75% of area) will likely get a speed under 400kbps on a 14.4Mbps peak mast, can easily be under 150kbps. (3 claim a minimum of 1.2MBps for NBS)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055115306
Latency is 80ms (really perfect signal, one user) to about 2000ms (3 claim 120ms for NBS)
Real Broadband is typically 50ms max.
Satellite is 790ms.

The phone traffic has priority.
The number of masts is less than 1/4 of what would be needed to meet contention requirements even at 1Mbps, even if only 30% signed up.
Is this why the the Advert coyly does not say what Minimum speed and Latency Broadband is?
Why does the Advert neglect to mention that the NBS "Broadband coming to your area" is in fact just a Mobile Phone mast and the modem is a regular "on the go" Mobile Internet Dongle rather than fixed Broadband that can be easily shared to the household or small office?

CAP
Real Broadband has a 20Gbyte to 250Gbyte (30G to 100G typical) Cap or FUP over a month or rolling 30 days. Typically if you go over Cap you are throttled. The 3 Mobile Internet product is 12G Cap download and 3G Cap upload and excess traffic is about €50 a Gigabyte (retail, wholesale appears to be €250 a Gigabyte). So the Cap on the NBS is not at all like Broadband.

jor el

I've seen a similar poster in Tipperary. Very misleading, but then the same is true for all the mobile operators, they shouldn't be allowed to call it broadband.

Our man in Havana

Same here in Laois. I already has o2 both 3G and EDGE.

The NBS propaganda leaflet is full of lies and untruths. They promise stuff that no 3G operator can deliver.

Also the Eifel Tower is not located beside some back road in rural Ireland.

Cabaal

Saw one of these adverts in the middle of Kilkenny City, disgraceful, was planning on posting up a photo of it but not had the time yet to take a photo of it

Random

Isn't this the thing where they'd putting a sattellite dish on your house for free if you can't avail of their normal service?

jor el

Random wrote: »

Isn't this the thing where they'd putting a sattellite dish on your house for free if you can't avail of their normal service?

And that would be for the satellite that's still on the ground.

watty

Only free install. If there is ever a satellite for it.

The Falcon 9 rocket has never flown.
The satellite is a prototype and not finished.

Our man in Havana

Lads, I has bad feeling that the ASAI will tell us to go away because the ad is not for a commerical venture and is government sponsored.

jbkenn

Bond-007 wrote: »

Also the Eifel Tower is not located beside some back road in rural Ireland.

Thats not the Eiffel tower, thats the first of the 160 towers 3 are building for the NBS
jbkenn

watty

Sure it's for a commercial venture. It's simply 3's network. On 3's 3G licence. Over half the €79M they get will go on Satellite (if it's ever launched). The NBS users getting the same price and service on 3's phone network as any other 3 customer. The rest of the €220 money 3 is spending is their own.

Is the Government allowed to sponser misleading Adverts for a commercial venture?

Most of 3's revenue will come from voice calls in these so called NBS roll-out areas.

Our man in Havana

I shall do up a complaint and see what happens.

dub45

And it doesnt warn people that they will have to spend hours on the phone (and on boards of course!) Complaining!

jor el

What newspaper was that ad in, watty? We'll need it for the ASAI complaint.

watty

AFAIK the advert is customised to each area, in many local papers. That one was in the Limerick Post, 30th May 2009. I complained to ASAI via their online form.
Variations of it on large billboards too, as mentioned above.

Our man in Havana

In the case of that ad, do any of those areas already have real broadband or existing 3G/EDGE services?

jbkenn

Bond-007 wrote: »

In the case of that ad, do any of those areas already have real broadband or existing 3G/EDGE services?

All of them, covered by FWA

jbkenn

watty

Are 3's claims here 100% clear and not misleading?
http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

* As part of the NBS contract 3 will deliver the following minimum speeds at launch at the edge of cell. Average speeds for customers will be higher.

o Minimum download speed is 1.2Mbps while maximum download speed is 5Mbps
o Minimum upload speed is 200Kbps while maximum upload speed is 1.8Mbps

3 have no LTE licence nor any LTE spectrum, nor will any 3G/HSPA modem work on LTE.

3’s network is also ready to be upgraded to LTE or Long Term Evolution which is the next step in mobile broadband technology.

watty

Areas that 3 / NBS claim they are bringing broadband to.
If areas have 3, O2, Meteor or Vodafone 3G (even if EDGE only, but not GSM/GPRS) then NBS is not bringing anything new.

If you have fixed Broadband already, then the NBS is not bringing you Broadband as you already have a superior service:

http://www.three.ie/nbs/live-areas.htm

Areas where NBS rollout has started

* Kerry
o Rathmore
* Galway
o Clifden
o Woodford
* Kilkenny
o Inistioge

Areas coming soon (After 30th June 2009).
* Carlow
o Coonogue
o Hacketstown
o Haroldstown
o Tiknock
* Clare
o Ballyeighter
o Loughea
o Coolmeen
o Killanena
o Kyle
o Kilfiddane
o Clooney
o Killuran
o Liscasey
o Abbey
* Cork
o Gortnascreeny
o Derragh
o Ballyhoolahan
o Candroma
o Dunmanus
o Templemolaga
o Dunbeacon
o Milltown
o Ardskeagh
o Rathcool
o Caherduggan
o Williamstown
o Castlemagner
o Teerelton
o Milford
o Boherboy
* Galway
o Colmanstown
o Ballycahalan
o Kilchreest
o Doonloughan
o Cloonkeen
o Laurencetown
o Killinny
o Cahermore
o Tiaquin
o Kilconierin
o Woodford
o Eyrecourt
o Hillsbrook
o Killeen
o Kiltullagh
o Claretuam
o Bunowen
o Clifden
* Kerry
o Cloontubbrid
o Kilnanare
* Kildare
o Cloncurry
o Feighcullen
* Kilkenny
o Castlegannon
o Pleberstown
o Freaghana
o Famma
o Kells
o The Rower
* Laois
o Nealstown
o Caher
o Marymount
o Garrymore
o Clonmore
o Cuffsborough
o Kyle
o Grantstown
o Donore
o Errill
o Ballyroan
o Emo
* Limerick
o Dunmoylan West
o Mohernagh
o Knocknascrow
o Particles
o Riversdale
o Rooskagh
o Kilbeheny
o Caherelly
o Darragh
o Griston
o Duntryleague
o Bulgaden
o Cullane
o Anglesborough
o Coolrus
o Ardpatrick
o Glensharrold
o Glenbrohane
o Ballymacshaneboy
o Glenagower
o Kilteely
o Cahercorney
o Galbally
o Knockainy
o Ballylanders
o Emlygrennan
o Templeglentan
o Knocklong
o Ardagh
o Hospital
o Kilfinnane
* Longford
o Doory
o Ardagh West
o Kilglass
o Kilcommock
* Mayo
o Croaghmoyle
o Rathoma
o Kilfian East
o Kilfian South
o Glenhest
o Caraun
o Dalgan
o Ballynagoraher
o Fortland
o Kilmaclasser
o Ballysakeery
o Derryloughan
o Clogher
o Carrowmore
o Croaghpatrick
o Islandeady
o Ardnaree North
o Crossmolina South
o Mount Falcon
o Newport East
* Offaly
o Gorteen
o Ettagh
o Bracknagh
o Killeigh
* Tipperary
o Rodus
o Cullen
o Shronell
o Killavinoge
o Burncourt
o Lattin
o Coolagarranroe
o Latteragh
o Clonbeg
o Emly
o Templetouhy
* Wexford
o Carnagh
o Taghmon
o Ardcolm
o Ballyhuskard
* Wicklow
o Rath
o Arklow Rural
o Humewood
o Rathdangan
o Talbotstown
o Killinure
o Ennereilly
o Dunganstown East
o Ballyarthur
o Dunganstown South

Please make a post on the thread if you already have Mobile or real Broadband in these areas.
If they put Literature through the door or localised adverts in your local paper can you save them and let us know?
If this service is mis-sold it will delay real broadband provision in your area.

PogMoThoin

I can't see how they can state a minimum speed of 1.2Mbps, lies, they've no way of controlling this

Having a look at Mayo which I'm very familiar with, most areas listed have FWA, I'll go through them later

cowboy1981

watty wrote: »

Areas that 3 / NBS claim they are bringing broadband to.
If you have 3, Meteor, O2, Vodaphone Mobile Data / Phone coverage, already, then the NBS is bring nothing new.

If you have fixed Broadband already, then the NBS is not bringing you Broadand as you already have a superior service:

http://www.three.ie/nbs/live-areas.htm

Avoca in Wicklow is a good example. It already has eircom DSL, yet NBS claims to have brought Broadband to this Electoral District (It is Green on 3 coverage map). The Electoral district stretches from Woodenbridge in the South through Avoca to Redcross in the North. According to 3's own coverage map, only the area around Redcross has coverage. Most of the population live in Avoca, where 3 have no coverage. My guess is that <10% of the population in the Avoca ED have coverage.

clohamon

watty wrote: »

If any of these areas have Broadband or O2, Meteor or Vodafone (even if EDGE only) then NBS is not bringing Broadband, as you have what "3 Ireland" are bring already (3G Mobile Phone Network).

The areas mentioned refer to specific EDs in the NBS. So at least nominally each area should have no more than 40% total coverage from other providers.


Coolrus 127049
Emlygrennan 127068
Darragh 127057
Glenbrohane 127076
Glensharrold 127078
Kilfinnane 127090
Particles 127119
Glenagower 127075
Ardagh 127007

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/0974C807-C881-4E8B-9ED9-3010DA0B2BBC/0/Limerick.pdf

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

Areas that 3 / NBS claim they are bringing broadband to.
If you have 3, Meteor, O2, Vodaphone Mobile Data / Phone coverage, already, then the NBS is bring nothing new.

Watty that's not correct, i've driven a good few of areas and yes there may be data coverage but it's not High Speed, suggesting there's no difference between them is misleading.

I think everyone should hold off on complaing untill we see how this plays out over the next few weeks, i'm as sceptical as the next fella but I think it's just a little to early to start complaining.

It'll be interesting to hear feedback from NBS customers over the next few weeks, hopefully it's not all doom and gloom and services really start to improve for these people.

watty

Thanks for pointing that out. My fingers running ahead of brain

The word EDGE in first post shows I was thinking of 3G rather than GSM/GPRS. The later post of areas I made it worse by leaving out "EDGE".

Why EDGE?
At 10 users simultaneously it can give the same per user speed as 14Mbps iHSPA at the cell edge.

However contrary to what 3 say, Nokia suggest the minimum connect speed on iHSPA is about 50kbps. The operator can of course refuse connection if the speed would drop below 1.2Mbps. That would unfortunately equate to less than 3 people simultaneously downloading in a sector, typically.

GSM speeds
GSM 14.4kbps
dual slot GSM 28.8kbps (old N9200i)
GPRS is 12kbps up to 70kbps
EDGE 50 kbps upto 245kbps (though 1.2Mbps is feasible simultaneously for 10 users in 5MHz of GSM spectrum)

3G speeds
3G 12kbps up to 350kbps
HSPA etc 50kbps upto 14.4Mbps. Its physically not possible to get much better than 2Mbps TOTAL sector throughput with a number of users across the sector area. Thus if a mast has 3 sectors a mast area (cell) can only have about 5 users at 1.2Mbps. The total number of subscribers then can't be more than 180 for the 36:1 contention. If a 1/10th of those customers are on at peak time then your speed can be 1.2 / 3.6 = 330k. Except It's W-CDMA based, the system loses capacity as users are added. some will not connect. The speed with all simultaneous will drop to about 150kbps at peak time if sold to 36:1 contention! For a 2km radius cell it's about 25sq km area.

If a 30% of the 220,000 addresses sign up = 66,000 subscribers. Assuming the mast really can manage an average throughput of 2Mbps per sector, then you need 367 masts for the NBS area!. Given the rural nature, almost entirely indoor usage and cell size, it's possible that average cell throughput at peak times could be 1Mbps. This is all based on Nokia and other 3G vendor publish figures. Not hyped marketing claims. So in reality for 1.2Mbps minimum indoor coverage for 30% takeup of broadband (That's what UPC gets of "passed" houses, maybe a bit less), you could need about 700 masts. (how many for Kerry )

IF NO PHONE CALLS. Phone traffic get priority and reduces the data capacity.

With the capacity they are installing they need to have less than 10% take up and no voice traffic to scrape near the claimed performance.

Even so many people will experience cell breathe which drops connections. Coverage can be up to 20dB poorer indoors if your window doesn't face a mast. Random things clump. So some sectors will have only a few and others overloaded. This is less likely with fixed wireless systems that might have 16x to 40x the sector average throughput.

drunkmonkey

eh no worries, all these frequencies were bombarded with are starting to take there toll...

should be an interesting few weeks:)

agree, the ad sucks.....

watty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I think everyone should hold off on complaing untill we see how this plays out over the next few weeks, i'm as sceptical as the next fella but I think it's just a little to early to start complaining.

It's nearly too late. We are complaining about false / misleading advertising that hides the fact this is just a Mobile Phone rollout.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It'll be interesting to hear feedback from NBS customers over the next few weeks, hopefully it's not all doom and gloom and services really start to improve for these people.

It's of the nature that the early adopters will see the claimed performance. But the system can't sustain growth. Six months to a years time is too late to complain about misleading adverts.

It's only "high speed" compared with GPRS. We have the only Government in the world selling this as Broadband. The UK Government has decided that 2Mbps is a minimum for Universal Broadband and that 3G/HSPA can't reliably provide even 1Mbps per user.

PogMoThoin

We need to complain now, not in 6 months. These adverts are lies, totally misleading. You wouldn't believe the amount of country people I meet who actually believe Eamon Ryan and think he's doing a fine job. Maybe if we throw a spanner in the works and the sattelite stays on the ground we can save the taxpayer 80million. Just imagine what a FWA provider could do with just one of those millions and bring REAL broadband to more areas than they cover already. Most of these areas have FWA already, some have even Dsl.

Our man in Havana

I would love to have FWA.

My ED is Laois is on their list. It is already served by 3 themselves, Vodafone and o2 of which I am currently using.

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

It's only "high speed" compared with GPRS. We have the only Government in the world selling this as Broadband. The UK Government has decided that 2Mbps is a minimum for Universal Broadband and that 3G/HSPA can't reliably provide even 1Mbps per user.

The SLA says they have to provide at least 1.2mb, now they either can or they can't.

Forget about the ad it's not the issue here, it's all about the service, every mobile broadband ad is misleading. I've never got 7.2mb from my o2 modem neither have I got 7mb from my 7mb eircom connection.

Please can we stop with the complaints until we see how this goes and at least one person who availed of the NBS can let us know what it's like.

Is there an NBS customer in the audience?

Our man in Havana

Sorry, my complaint is already in.

watty

It would be irresponsible not to highlight a national advertising campain that is totally misleading.

The actual performance of the 3G/NBS rollout isn't actually relevant to this complaint to ASAI. Even if 3 meet their obligations, I believe the advert is misleading as it nowhere mentions this is a Phone system, the NBS spec for latency and Cap doesn't meet Broadband expectations. How many films can you watch in a month on a 12G cap? Nor do they mention that if you can't get a signal you would be offered VSAT (two way satellite) service on a satellite that may never exist. With minimum 790ms latency if it ever did exist and an even lower Cap.

The advert at the least should mention 12G download cap, 3G Mobile Modem via phone masts, 1.2Mbps speed and 120ms latency. They imply something better than what the NBS spec actually is.

It's a whole different can of worms, nothing to to with this Advert campaign and ASAI that the NBS as specified, is unlikely to deliver what in claims as customers added. Also a 3rd set of issue the fact it is NOT a universal provision as originally claimed and a 4th set of issues that 1.2Mbps, 120ms & 12G Cap is a miserable spec for Broadband even if 3 could deliver.

The real horror of what the NBS is delivering will take a year or so to be fully apparent. No point asking the opinion of random people today. Also those that can't get it by definition won't be NBS customers! You need coverage tests in every area. Anecdotal evidence at this stage would be a totally skewed picture of performance and tell us nothing about true coverage.

My youngest lad had a spree last week on Videos and ate about 8Gbyte in 4 days... If he was on NBS would they warn or disconnect or throttle when over cap? Or do you get a bill for an extra €400 to €800? It's a Mobile Phone system. We know how many of them handle over Cap. In our case I knew we had a problem from our traffic monitor and the same day an email from "support" warning us that we are approaching Cap (6G left so not throttled). Even if over Cap I have no charge or disconnect, just Throttled to ISDN/Mobile speeds till 80% of Cap again. (His laptop mysteriously has no WiFi card now).

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

It would be irresponsible not to highlight a national advertising campain that is totally misleading.

The actual performance of the 3G/NBS rollout isn't actually relevant to this complaint to ASAI. Even if 3 meet their obligations, I believe the advert is misleading as it nowhere mentions this is a Phone system,).

The advert is not misleading (broadband/midband : ) ) it's only to create awarness, it's not making any claims, All details can be found out if you call the freephone number mentioned in the add. This is a special hotline just for NBS customers. As part of the contract 3 are not allowed to advertise their phone system as part of the NBS, that's why you don't and won't see any mention of it.

as for the 12GB cap it's a 15GB cap which is the best offer for mobile broadband at the moment, to compare like for like:

o2 12mt contract, €25pm - 7.5GB cap
Vodafone 12mt, €19.99pm - 5GB cap
Meteor 12mt contract - €16.99pm - 5GB cap
Eircom 12mt contract - €19.99pm - 10GB cap

It would be good to see the prices for current Satellite services if someone has them to hand?