Advert for Broadband.

Our man in Havana

Seeing as I could already get 3 in my area, they are offering nothing new.

As part of the contract 3 are not allowed to advertise their phone system as part of the NBS, that's why you don't and won't see any mention of it.

Ah, but to get this NBS service you have to visit a 3 store or other mobile shop where they can advertise their phone service. The provision of the service should be strictly by mail order only in order to avoid this scenario.

drunkmonkey

Bond-007 wrote: »

Seeing as I could already get 3 in my area, they are offering nothing new.


Ah, but to get this NBS service you have to visit a 3 store or other mobile shop where they can advertise their phone service. The provision of the service should be strictly by mail order only in order to avoid this scenario.

So we shoud cut irish businesses out of the loop entirely and let the whole process be managed by a call center full of numb nuts in india, great thinking.

As for not offering anything new, have you tried it out, there is something new being offered, i'm not saying anything as i've not seen it in operation yet but there is defianalty something new.

watty

@drunkmonkey You are being misleading


The Mobile prices and Cap are not relevant. Nor is satellite.

The NBS is claiming Broadband is coming to specific areas.

Some of these already have real Broadband
Some already have 3!
Others already have 02, Meteor/eircom or Vodafone So called "high speed" data.

The Cap is 1/2 to 1/4 typical broadband
The latency is typically 10 times typical broadband
Phone calls get priority.
It's a Mobile phone rollout. Everyone would get exactly the same thing from 3 (other thana Satellite, and 3's doesn't exist) if the NBS didn't exist. In fact if you sign up to the 3 Mobile for 18 months instead of NBS for 12 months you save €49
http://www.three.ie/broadband/nbs.htm
http://www.three.ie/broadband/paymonthly.htm

As part of the contract 3 are not allowed to advertise their phone system as part of the NBS, that's why you don't and won't see any mention of it.

Total Weasel. 3's logo is on the advert. 3 offer both almost identically on their web site
The NBS adverts could easily say it's 3G/HSPA Mobile technology.

The Advert talks about watching films. You won't watch many and do all the other stuff on 3G/HSPA with a 12G cap.
(It may be 15G total, but in fine print it's 12G down and 3G up.)

From http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

What is the difference between NBS customers and Non-NBS customers?
NBS customers are customers located in NBS coverage areas defined in the NBS contract entered into between 3 and the Department of Communication, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR). These customers will receive broadband under the National Broadband Scheme. Non-NBS customers are in all other areas outside defined NBS coverage areas.

Plain English and looking at prices?
1) Free modem and 18months non-NBS,
2) €49 Modem and 12 months NBS.
You have to get a 3rd party Router to have more than one PC or WiFi. A family or a small office can share real broadband. It's pretty rubbish sharing 3G/HSPA to small office or a family.
http://www.three.ie/nbs/faqs.htm

What product will be offered under the NBS?
3 will extend its network to provide mobile wireless broadband services into NBS areas. The mobile wireless broadband service (HSPA), will have a minimum download speed of 1.2mbps, a minimum upload speed of 200kpbs, a maximum contention ratio of 36:1, a latency of 120 milliseconds and a 15gigabit (12 down, 3 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

In recognition of the fact that some areas will be very difficult to reach using standard infrastructure, in a limited number of cases 3 will make available a satellite product, which may cover up to 8% of the NBS areas. The satellite product will have a minimum download speed of 1mbs, a minimum upload speed of 128kbps, a maximum contention ratio of 48:1, latency of 800 milliseconds and a 11gigabit (10 down, 1 up) inclusive monthly download allowance limit.

It's not a dedicated Mobile Data like Digiweb's. It's a 3G Mobile phone system pretty much like eircom/Meteor, O2 and Vodafone are selling. (iHSPA and even 21Mbps is a marginal change to overall cell average throughput compared to 3.6Mbps HSDPA. Meteor's system is nearly identical).


Prices of Satellite are irrelevent on NBS because it doesn't exist yet and may not exist even by 2011. This one does exist already Nationwide for €35 a month, 3.6Mbps/384kbps Speed 2.4Gbyte Cap (basic, 12 G Cap is €132)

Also the pricing of ALL the Mobile operators is a Customer Grab exercise. For the same sales revenue comparing the voice packages and Data packages, the Data costs them 150 to 500 times more! They are all doing Mobile Data at a loss. Expect prices to go only one way in long term.

The ONLY licence 3 Ireland have relating to NBS is their Mobile Phone licence
see http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59549725&postcount=4

http://www.comreg.ie/radio_spectrum/search.541.874.10003.0.rslicensing.html
Scroll down to click on 3's licence

drunkmonkey

3's mobile broadband offering and 3' NBS offering are 2 differient services with 2 different SLA's, don't confuse the two. There different product offerings. You can't get and 18mt contract and a free modem if your an NBS customer.

If eircom / digiweb won the NBS there logo would also be on the ad and they 2 offer more than one serive.

If 2 modems are required for a small office or family it's still at a good price point, eircom line + rental is still 20% more expensive even if it was available.

3 can't up the price of the contract after 12mts, o2, vodafone , meteor can do what they like 3 are restrained because of the NBS.

jazus that Digiweb is serioulsy expensive if you need a decent download allowance.

You keep calling it a mobile phone rollout, it's not one 3 have a choice in, these are under populated areas not exactly the best place to start rolling out services.

watty

It's the same price (including initial setup on plan3). Same Modem, Same masts, Same Technology, same speeds, same cap, same over Cap €50 a Gigabyte same backhaul, same latency as NBS Identical Products including initial cost

According to 3 Licence they must allow the public phone calls to use any of their masts and any normal wholesale service must be able to use their whole network.

Read the license. I can call it a mobile phone roll out because that is the only thing 3 Ireland have a license for and that is in reality exactly what it is.

I have 30 Gbyte Cap, 8M down / 1M up and < 30ms latency for €40 a month. eircom is the most expensive line rental in the world. That can't continue. Look at Metro & UPC prices. Digiweb Metro is one of the lower Cap decent Broadband packages.

An extra 15Gbyte on 3 Mobile or NBS would cost €750 a month, to have 30Gbyte. AFAIK you can download over 100Gbyte on eircom before they get nervy. About 100G to 250G on UPC depending on package.

The 3 service is only €19.95 because they want customers. They make the money from Mobile phone. Which by terms of their license must work on all the so called Mobile Phone masts. I'd agree maybe the least useful coverage masts might not get done without NBS, maybe 10% to 20% of rollout.

Because of the way W-CDMA works, having two modems rather than sharing one via a router could actually reduce overall performance. if one does 5Mbps and you have a 2nd in same room downloading at same time, they will get about 1.8Mbps to 2.2Mbps each or less and latency may rise. Share a single Modem via router and latency is unchanged and two simultaneous streams get 2.5Mbps each.

Our man in Havana

So let me play devils advocate here for a moment.

Say I go into a carphonewarehouse etc and ask for this NBS yoke and when I get home find it is crap i.e. the same as 3 are at present would I be allowed out of the contract?

jor el

drunkmonkey wrote: »

3's mobile broadband offering and 3' NBS offering are 2 differient services with 2 different SLA's, don't confuse the two. There different product offerings. You can't get and 18mt contract and a free modem if your an NBS customer.

No, it'll be the exact same thing. The pricing may be different, but the technology and network will be one.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If 2 modems are required for a small office or family it's still at a good price point, eircom line + rental is still 20% more expensive even if it was available.

2 modems in the same location will immediately cut the available bandwidth for each modem. This would be counter intuitive.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

3 can't up the price of the contract after 12mts, o2, vodafone , meteor can do what they like 3 are restrained because of the NBS.

I don't see the relevance of that. Prices for mobile midband are coming down, not going up, and with increased competition in the market, they're not likely to increase.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

jazus that Digiweb is serioulsy expensive if you need a decent download allowance.

As opposed to Three's 150euro per GB over the cap?

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You keep calling it a mobile phone rollout, it's not one 3 have a choice in, these are under populated areas not exactly the best place to start rolling out services.

Three had a choice when they tendered for the NBS. Now that they won the contract, there are conditions to adhere to, conditions they knew when they tendered. Again, I fail to see the relevance of the comment.

Three are expending their mobile phone network, a network that already supports data, nothing more. They're not bringing anything new, they're just going to cover a little more area with a mobile network that's already under pressure.

Time will tell.

Bond-007 wrote:

Say I go into a carphonewarehouse etc and ask for this NBS yoke and when I get home find it is crap i.e. the same as 3 are at present would I be allowed out of the contract?

A very good question. I would hope so, but I haven't seen the T&Cs that define what trial period (if any) there will be with the NBS scheme, or what rights you have if in the future your speeds drop to unusable levels (or below the 1.2Mbps guaranteed by the scheme).

drunkmonkey

You allways had the 14 day money back gurantee, (I have to check is this the case with the NBS)

I think you question is if i'm in an NBS area and I take home the modem and it's crap what do I do next?
If your in an NBS area there will be options to improve the service.

@Watty, I know exaclty what your saying and I agree, just playing devils advocate like Bond..

watty

jor el wrote: »

I don't see the relevance of that. Prices for mobile midband are coming down, not going up, and with increased competition in the market, they're not likely to increase.



As opposed to Three's 150euro per GB over the cap?




A very good question. I would hope so, but I haven't seen the T&Cs that define what trial period (if any) there will be with the NBS scheme, or what rights you have if in the future your speeds drop to unusable levels (or below the 1.2Mbps guaranteed by the scheme).

It's apparently 5c a Megabyte. If we be Generous and count decimal that is 5000c a Gigabyte = €50.

It's of the nature of it that if it works, it will work for 14 days, but 3 to 9 months later your speed could be 150kbps max at peak times. Interesting question.

The pricing of Mobile Data isn't sustainable unless the operators are making 99% profit on Voice calls. When the numbers of subscribers has peaked or EU intervenes on competition distortion grounds (Decent fixed DSL & Cable can't offer a Mobile voice service to subsidize data) the data prices have to go up.

If we assumed the out of bundle (excess cap) is an indication of more realistic prices then a Basic unsubsidized Data package is really about €100 for a few GByte cap.

It might be a couple of years away. Mobile usage (and eircom overpricing) has reduced fixed lines to 66% from 82%. About 1/3 of those 66% are on welfare subsidy. It's not reasonable that Mobile Internet is replacing DSL for fixed use simply because of Dodgy Advertising (Mobile Broadband), over priced line rental and Mobile data subsidized by Mobile voice.

mk6705

watty wrote: »

So in reality for 1.2Mbps minimum indoor coverage for 30% takeup of broadband (That's what UPC gets of "passed" houses, maybe a bit less), you could need about 700 masts. (how many for Kerry )
.

Surprisingly broadband is very available in Kerry. I mean I'd say almost everywhere is covered, wireless or not. If you took into account fixed wireless and ADSL nearly everywhere would be covered. Fixed wireless mightn't be perfect but it'll outperform HSDPA anyway. Also, even if the O2 network is crap here in general compared to the rest of the country, they have EDGE practically all over the place. So basically, this NBS is stupid, at least there. But there does seem to be more fixed wireless here than anywhere else. Still for the investment in it and the fact that there's an EU logo on those adverts it really annoys me!

z0oT

Only in Ireland would something like this happen. It's all merely so our lovely minister can say "Ah sure tis fine... they've their broadband now". I wholeheartedly agree that mobile operators shouldn't be allowed to call it broadband.

ZeRoY

After reading the thread - which is very interesting by the way - I think im not to bothered by the terms "Broadband" being use for the service. In data comm, the term broadband is more to do with the technology in use than the actual signal rate.

Whats worrying is indeed the speeds advertised. How stupid are 3 to stipulate a MINIMUM speed for both download and upload ??! The speed mention cannot be guarantee and that is extremely misleading. Oh well, i hope they have a lot of patient Customer Service Staff to cope with the complains when they arrives!

In summary and in my opinion, this NBS from 3 is the new Dial-up offer for the masses. The speeds will probably fall to that of Dial-up within 6 months but i guess we'll just have to wait and see. In fairness i think at this stage in Ireland any new service for broadband can be welcome looking how it is behind other European countries when it comes to broadband (anything thats not Dial-up) coverage.

garrethmcdaid

If the ad said:

"A new 3G Service is coming to Limerick", how many people without a background in data communications would know what it meant?

jor el

ZeRoY wrote: »

In summary and in my opinion, this NBS from 3 is the new Dial-up offer for the masses.

I would say that the NBS is doing nothing more than the taxpayer paying for Three's network roll-out, and not actually delivering anything new at all. Specifically, after looking at the maps on Three's website that show where NBS is being rolled out, I saw Bothar in Co. Limerick down as an NBS area. Bothar is already covered by O2 with HSDPA. Three and the NBS are offering absolutely nothing new here.

watty

garrethmcdaid wrote: »

If the ad said:

"A new 3G Service is coming to Limerick", how many people without a background in data communications would know what it meant?

They would think another Mobile Phone operator, which is honest and true. If the mobile Data products didn't have "Broadband" in the name and they were honest that it's just the Modem part of a Mobile Phone, no-one would confuse 3G Mobile Internet and Broadband. The two aren't the same or the NBS would be "selling" the portable and lightweight aspect as a feature.

(from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60987842&postcount=6676)

thebman

Its not broadband. Broadband should be always on. Advert is misleading.

You have to dial up with this service. It is no different to dial up Internet access especially with 3's track record on this forum and elsewhere. They sometimes provide dial up speeds, sometimes faster, sometimes no service at all, sometimes certain websites are blocked.

Bottom line, it isn't dependable so it isn't a solution IMO.

Walkman

Just so everyone knows the ad is published by The Department of Communications not 3. The Department say where the advertising goes and in what areas. There are two seperate issues here both of which 3 have no control over i.e. Content and location.

Our man in Havana

Just so everyone knows the ad is published by The Department of Communications not 3.

So the ASAI will no doubt wash their hands as they would count this as an exempted communication, i.e. the dept are not a commercial organisation. Ryan is smarter than the average bear.

watty

This very similar advert is by 3
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055612244
@Walkman
Have you proof the Dept is spending money on these adverts?
(I shall ring the Limerick Post tomorrow)

Link to 3's T&C for NBS http://www.three.ie/pdf/NBS_smallprint.pdf

Firetrap

Yes it's misleading. Only last night I had to dissuade relatives of mine who wouldn't be particularly tech savvy from signing up with them even though they might be in with an outside chance of getting DSL. It's all down to the marketing.

watty

See http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61064705&postcount=24

Also discussion on how good 3 NBS areas are:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055613768

Discussion on 3G in UK
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055615650
(The UK Government Digital Britian report has now concluded that 900MHz 3G would be poorer coverage than 900MHz GSM (due to W-CDMA breathing) and that 3G/HSPA can't even reliabley deliver 1Mbps, much less the 2Mbps they think is minimum for a Rural Broadband).

See this forum generally for discussions on why the NBS/3G can't ever be Broadband.

devnull

I hate all of the phone and GPRS based broadband, it does have a purpose, I myself use 3's service when travelling and on trains and coaches etc, however as for general usage - it's not suitable IMHO.

watty

It's a great solution for email on mobile phone, or occasional on the go look up of a train timetable or fact for a meeting. My friend and I found and booked a hotel in Brataslava while on train from Kosice (they have mains sockets on all the trains in Slovakia). My 3G modem SIM wouldn't roam, so I used my phone sim in the 3G Modem on laptop. But it's not Broadband. I'm not against the service. Just how it is marketed.

drunkmonkey

watty wrote: »

Also discussion on how good 3 NBS areas are:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055613768

Watty come on that's not discussion on how good the 3 NBS areas are, it's another (trolling thread) what can we do about it OMFG 3 have won the NBS, here's a few links to complain...
That thread title (false advertising) says there's no coverage for people in that NBS area, that's factually wrong for NBS.

as you said yourself Anyway, this thread is NOT about the NBS, but about a Mobile Phone company advertising their Mobile Data product as if it is a leading edge high quality Broadband product with a huge Cap.:rolleyes:

I couldn't have said it any better myself, would have probably swapped the word leading to bleeding....:)

watty

You mixed your threads. This *IS* the thread about NBS. And the fact it is a misleading advert. The other is not a trolling thread. I'm just an ordinary user in BB & Midband and IoffL. The ONLY trolling related to the threads and practically the only trolling in the Forum are your posts in Midband forum.

If you read the thread or looked at 3's NBS map you would see that "3" themselves claimed Zero Coverage in a "Green" launched ED. Not me or IoffL.

Why are you determined to support these people? Someone told me your shop sells a few of their modems, but that is no excuse for your repeated misdirections and misinformations on any 3G related threads.

smeg_for_brains

I live at the edge of the Ardagh West rollout area, and received the NBS leaflet claiming minimum 1.2Mbs download at the edge of the cell.

At present I receive 3G from O2 at home, on my SE910 mobile, which I use as a modem for the computer. As Im at the edge of this cell also, I mainly revert to EDGE. The odd time that the 3G symbol appears on the phone, the signal bars drop right down and connection drops so I assume, the phone is picking up a signal but it is not strong enough to put any data through.

Judging by my Speedtest.net results, and comparing to other user's 3 results, it looks like I am better off staying where I am. The speeds are not spectacular but at least they are consistent, and I have always found O2 customer services to be excellent. I also am waiting to see results from people who sign up to the 3 service although the fact that they DO sign up may mean that they do not read these threads in the first place, and so may not post results!!

While I am here, I would like to ask if anyone knows why when downloading a file, the actual download speeds (according to firefox download manager) are 10% of the speedtest result. I tested this with a download from heanet.ie at about 2am, as well as Youtube. has anyone an idea why this would be the case. I even disabled firewall (I use Linux), to no effect.

By the way, I see a lot of people have problems opening facebook. this has happened to me at work a few times, using Windows, but never at home using Firefox.

watty

Downloads are measured in BYTES and speed tests and packages in BITS. Normally 8 bits to a byte, but file transfer has oveheads, so about 1/10th for file transfer is same speed actually.

watty

The Repeater offer


NOTE:
This is NOT a router like Dlink, Netgear, Dovado, Linksys, Cradlepoint, Solwise or others sell for 3G. You need a 3G dongle for each laptop to connect to it. No WiFi for PSP, XBox, PS3, Archos, Internet Radios or iTouch or WiFi part of phones. It uses a private WiFi link between the two parts so may even interfere with use of a 802.11n or 802.11a Router/WiFi. (Uses 5.x rather than 2.4GHz band).

It doesn't improve coverage as it doesn't go outside on chimney with a directional aerial. It sits indoor. It won't work through Pilkington K-Glass Double Glazing. It just makes 3G available in a different room via dedicated WiFi.
Detail:

watty

The satellite Option:


Doesn't mention it's not launched yet.

These leaflets are part of a 1.5m tall x 1m approx big "3 Broadband" display stand. The shopkeeper initially agreed to a photo until I told him it was for ASAI.

Also on the stand was this leaflet: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61064705&postcount=24

and much other 3 Broadband material. Nothing mentioned Mobile Phone Network. Little even mentioned Mobile.

The two NBS leaflets and other material in same row.

smeg_for_brains

watty wrote: »

Downloads are measured in BYTES and speed tests and packages in BITS. Normally 8 bits to a byte, but file transfer has oveheads, so about 1/10th for file transfer is same speed actually.

Ah, stupid of me. I should have doublechecked instead of assuming. Thanks