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The Irish Language & Party Politics.

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    #32
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    It is too backward looking as well.

    How can a language be backward looking? I thought we were over that whole - If you speak Irish, you're a peasant mentality that existed in the 1800's.
    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    The Gaelic speakers think that they area cut above the rest of us Irish

    No we don't. Do you think people speak Irish as a means of elevating some sort of faux superiority within society? Perhaps people just like speaking the language because the find it interesting, or are interesting in maintaining it as part of society?


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    #33
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Sand wrote: »
    What I find peculiar is that you dont seem to realise that Irish identity is multi faceted and extends to far more than Gaelic identity 500 years ago. All Irish people are Irish. Not all Irish people are Gaelic by any stretch of the imagination. Plenty of Irish people dont share identity with medieval Gaelic culture which at best only forms one strand of modern Irish identity. Hence its not their indigenous langauge. They feel about as passionately about it as they do ... Welsh.


    As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language? The way Irish langauge is leveraged by the state to penalise you? Oh and the linking of language and national identity, or to be more clear national identity and speaking a particular language? Yeah, that really rubs people up the wrong way too.
    Mr.Micro wrote:
    No wonder many of us hate Irish, taught if that is the right word by brutes and violence when we were young. It is too backward looking as well. The Gaelic speakers think that they are a cut above the rest of us Irish when in reality most of us have moved on and see Irish for what it is pointless and obsolete for the majority.

    These two posts are symptomatic of the post colonial inferiority complex of which many Irish people suffer from. A constant degrading of Irish culture, be it language, indigenous games, native music etc. A common thread is a fawning over foreign culture in particular British culture, how their language is better, their games are better etc. While at the same time trying to promote how backward our culture and ways are.

    "We were thought it by brutes and violence when we were young"; hmm i don't remember that. I must have went to the only school in Ireland where Irish wasn't beaten into us with a stick, by Father Jack type drunkards.

    "As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language?" Yes the Irish language movement are all fascists styling themselves on the Nazi movement. Prepared to physically beat the language down everyones throat using whatever means necessary.


    I again feel Irelands post colonial inferiority complex is at the heart of the issue. Point in case is our former glorious leader Bertie Ahern, when he recently wrote his foreword for a Manchester United book. In any other country this would be unacceptable. In Britain Gordon Brown supports his local club Dunfermline, if he decided to write a foreword for a book on Barcelona, Bayern Munich or another foreign team he would be hounded out of office for being unpatriotic.

    Ireland has a proud history of language, poetry, writing, sports, music and culture to be the envy of almost every country in the world. You guys should embrace it!


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    #34
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »

    Ireland has a proud history of language, poetry, writing, sports, music and culture to be the envy of almost every country in the world. You guys should embrace it!

    lol sorry I'm not ditching the entire Irish culture or history because I don't speak the language.

    The language is irrelevant to most people and Irish culture today so I think its sadder that people are trying to hold on to it when it has no hope of becoming the first language in the country at this point if only for economic reasons.


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    #35
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    thebman wrote: »
    lol sorry I'm not ditching the entire Irish culture or history because I don't speak the language.
    Nor should you, but there are plenty who do.
    thebman wrote: »
    The language is irrelevant to most people and Irish culture today so I think its sadder that people are trying to hold on to it when it has no hope of becoming the first language in the country at this point if only for economic reasons.
    I would disagree. So it may never become the main language again thats no reason for jetissoning the language entirely. If the language is continued to be promoted and taught better than previous there is no reason that people can't become bilingual in the future. It would be a sad day for Ireland if the language was killed off for good. Its a beautiful language, and I would especially miss the nuacht agus aimsir cailíní from TG4. ;)


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    #36
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Nor should you, but there are plenty who do.


    I would disagree. So it may never become the main language again thats no reason for jetissoning the language entirely. If the language is continued to be promoted and taught better than previous there is no reason that people can't become bilingual in the future. It would be a sad day for Ireland if the language was killed off for good. Its a beautiful language, and I would especially miss the nuacht agus aimsir cailíní from TG4. ;)

    I disagree with forcing people to learn it or trying to at least. It should be optional as people who don't care should be let not care and not forced for over a decade to attend classes in a subject they have no interest in.

    It isn't necessary for life so it has no need to be compulsory. It would be like making French compulsory or Polish. It doesn't make any sense as it isn't a required language for life so why have it be required in education?

    So some small minority of people can feel better that the language is being promoted. I don't think that is acceptable.


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    #37
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    These two posts are symptomatic of the post colonial inferiority complex of which many Irish people suffer from. A constant degrading of Irish culture, be it language, indigenous games, native music etc. A common thread is a fawning over foreign culture in particular British culture, how their language is better, their games are better etc. While at the same time trying to promote how backward our culture and ways are.

    Our culture is like most of the western world, consumerism, TV, cinema, fast food, english books mags etc all with an American twist and U2 of course. Most of us embrace our new culture as the other is of grim, poverty, priest ridden and oppressed Ireland and how hard we were done over by the British.
    "We were thought it by brutes and violence when we were young"; hmm i don't remember that. I must have went to the only school in Ireland where Irish wasn't beaten into us with a stick, by Father Jack type drunkards
    You must have been lucky. I did honours Irish many years ago purely to get a better overall result and as soon as I finished my exams I gave it up for good as I saw it was a waste of time and utterly pointless. All the tales that were taught were of woe, alcoholism, death, emigration and utter misery.


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    #38
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    thebman wrote: »
    It isn't necessary for life so it has no need to be compulsory. It would be like making French compulsory or Polish. It doesn't make any sense as it isn't a required language for life so why have it be required in education?

    French and Polish are not our native languages. There is no onus on us to teach them as mandatory curriculum.

    Would you have history, geography and science as optional subjects in school. When does a subject become optional? From primary school? Secondary school?


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    #39
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    dlofnep wrote: »
    French and Polish are not our native languages...

    Nor is Irish, except for a very small proportion of our people. It's a specious basis on which to argue for the preservation of the language. And I say that as one who has a reasonable command of the language and a willingness to use it.


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    #40
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,846 ✭✭✭SeanW


    dlofnep wrote: »
    French and Polish are not our native languages. There is no onus on us to teach them as mandatory curriculum.
    A lot of people feel the same way about Gaelic.
    Would you have history, geography and science as optional subjects in school. When does a subject become optional? From primary school? Secondary school?
    Damn straight I would! School should engage their students and prepare them for life - so from secondary school I would prefer to have a lot more elective subjects (i.e. multiple choice pick your favourite) rather than mostly core. I would only leave Maths and English as Core subjects, and have everything else (languages including Irish, Information Technology, different topics of science like chemistry, biology and physics, geography, history, as well as vocational preparations in plumbing, carpentry, electrical, engineering, FAS Safe Pass, Drivers Education programs and so on) all as groups of options.

    A problem of course, would be finding the money for all of this, but the short answer to your above question is a resounding YES!


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    #41
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,588 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Nobody is forced to speak anything.

    Yes, yes they are. I didnt do Irish past my junior cert because I wanted to. It was because its required to enter most/all Irish universities. And thats just one example.

    So yes, while it is correct to say no one is forced to speak Irish, you are forced to know just enough to jump through some ****ing hoops put in place to "encourage" the Irish language.
    Nobody has stated that there is a link between language and national identity. I don't believe that by speaking English you are less Irish. I do believe that the Irish language is a fundamental aspect of our culture and heritage and that there is great merit behind preserving it.

    Why are you contradicting yourself in practically the same sentence? You know that rule where putting a smiley after calling someone a ****er doesnt make it okay to call them a ****er? Its the almost same for stuff like you just posted.
    I don't see you quimmimg about being forced to study history, or geography as part of a mandatory curriculum?

    I dont have any problem with Irish being taught. History and Geography are optional. I was not forced to get a certain grade in History or Geography so that I could pursue studies in Economics and Finance. I was forced to get a certain grade in Irish despite it having no bearing or relevance whatsoever on my course.

    This is the mental block that makes debate so difficult. Either its compulsory Irish or its back to the penal laws.

    I repeat - I have no problem with Irish being taught. Hell, I have an uncle who would probably put you to shame for his conversational Irish and thats great for him. He loves it, he learnt it ( and I think everyone would agree that he did not learn it, nor learn to love it, from the Irish education system) and thats fine.

    I simply do not agree with hoops being put in place to "encourage" Irish. I cant speak a word of Irish and I have jumped through every hoop put in place to instill a love of the language in my heart. I am a walking, talking mockery of compulsory Irish much like 99% of Irish people today. The "Irish movement" lobbies for those hoops to be put in place, and like dutiful trick ponies the rest of us jump through them to avoid offending anyones sensibilities, and Irish continues to limp along on life support whilst the "Irish movement" wonders why nobody loves them...

    Erin
    These two posts are symptomatic of the post colonial inferiority complex of which many Irish people suffer from. A constant degrading of Irish culture, be it language, indigenous games, native music etc. A common thread is a fawning over foreign culture in particular British culture, how their language is better, their games are better etc. While at the same time trying to promote how backward our culture and ways are.

    Erin...you are overcompensating.
    "As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language?" Yes the Irish language movement are all fascists styling themselves on the Nazi movement. Prepared to physically beat the language down everyones throat using whatever means necessary.

    I dont recall saying that.

    You know, if you have to invent things for me to say so you can prove them wrong....maybe youre just terrible at debating?

    By the way, funny thing about people disliking the "Irish movement"? Reread your post. It will come to you...
    In Britain Gordon Brown supports his local club Dunfermline, if he decided to write a foreword for a book on Barcelona, Bayern Munich or another foreign team he would be hounded out of office for being unpatriotic.

    To be honest, I dont think the average British person would give a ****. Whats that about post colonial inferiority complex again?
    Ireland has a proud history of language, poetry, writing, sports, music and culture to be the envy of almost every country in the world. You guys should embrace it!

    Thing is, where you say Ireland, you really mean Gaelic Ireland. Tony Cascarino is part of Irelands proud history in sports despite admitting himself he has little or no link to "the indigenous people" of Ireland. And yet, everyone in the country would buy him a pint.


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    #42
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Choice would imply they had the ability to speak it in the first place. That's very misleading.
    Ok then, a huge majority cannot or will not speak Irish. That's true.


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    #43
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sand wrote: »
    Why are you contradicting yourself in practically the same sentence? You know that rule where putting a smiley after calling someone a ****er doesnt make it okay to call them a ****er? Its the almost same for stuff like you just posted.

    I absolutely did not contradict myself in the same sentence, and I take offense that you've read between the lines and given your own faux conclusion.

    As for your other points, I think you've made a good argument. I think it's unfortunate that Irish is a mandatory requirement for University, and I don't think it should be.

    I think our opinion differs on Irish being a mandatory requirement for secondary. Perhaps a compromise could be made on it being optional for the leaving cert - but I think it would ultimately be a starting point for the entire removal of Irish from our curriculum.

    If this poll so far has suggested anything - it still suggests that the majority of the people support the language. I would like to see how it unfolds with maybe 200-300 votes to get a better understanding.

    So Sand - What would you like see done.

    Totally remove it from our curriculum, leaving the Gaelscoilenna to support the language? Make it optional for leaving cert, or optional for all of secondary? Or perhaps an optional subject in primary.

    I would like to know where optional starts for you.


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    #44
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Our culture is like most of the western world, consumerism, TV, cinema, fast food, english books mags etc all with an American twist and U2 of course. Most of us embrace our new culture as the other is of grim, poverty, priest ridden and oppressed Ireland and how hard we were done over by the British.
    Classic Stockholm Syndrome! The battered wife who just can't help but to go back and fawn over the abusive husband. The only way to deal with history is to acknowledge and accept it for good and for bad. Our history has played an important role in where our country is today.

    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    You must have been lucky. I did honours Irish many years ago purely to get a better overall result and as soon as I finished my exams I gave it up for good as I saw it was a waste of time and utterly pointless. All the tales that were taught were of woe, alcoholism, death, emigration and utter misery.
    Here i agree with you to an extent. The syllabus thought when I went to school didn't entice or interest people. Less Peg and more practical oral skills are the way to go. The way the language is taught needs to be 'sexed up' without doubt.


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    #45
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Ok then, a huge majority cannot or will not speak Irish. That's true.

    No, that is not true.

    They will not because they can not.


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    #46
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    They will not because they can not.
    Why can't they? Nobody is stopping anyone with the inclination from learning Irish if they really want to. I think the Irish-language enthusiasts are deluding themselves if they think that a warm fuzzy feeling for the language is actually a powerful, repressed yearning.

    It's many decades since any law forbade or suppressed Irish. It would now be widely spoken if the majority people of this country really wanted to.

    They don't: get over it.


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    #47
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Sand wrote: »
    I dont recall saying that.
    You wrote: As for why the Irish "movement" encounters such hostility...have you encountered the Irish movement and their "Lets FORCE everyone to speak Gaelic!!!! promotion of the language? to which I used quotes to attribute to you.

    Then I added "Yes the Irish language movement are all fascists styling themselves on the Nazi movement. Prepared to physically beat the language down everyones throat using whatever means necessary." which I didn't enclose in quotes to attribute to myself.

    I most certainly did not attribute any quotations to you that you did not make.


    Sand wrote: »
    You know, if you have to invent things for me to say so you can prove them wrong....maybe youre just terrible at debating?

    see above
    Sand wrote: »
    By the way, funny thing about people disliking the "Irish movement"? Reread your post. It will come to you...
    A typo should have read the Irish language movement.

    Sand wrote: »
    To be honest, I dont think the average British person would give a ****. Whats that about post colonial inferiority complex again?
    I am certain they would not be impressed if their Prime Minister was promoting foreign sporting teams if there existed equivalent home based teams.


    Sand wrote: »
    Thing is, where you say Ireland, you really mean Gaelic Ireland. Tony Cascarino is part of Irelands proud history in sports despite admitting himself he has little or no link to "the indigenous people" of Ireland. And yet, everyone in the country would buy him a pint.
    Tony Cascarino lied about his heritage in order to get picked for the Irish Soccer team which would benefit his footballing career. I would rather see genuine Irish people or genuine people of Irish extraction who have a love for the country playing for the country. It demeans the whole team otherwise.


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    #48
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    We have our own language in this country which should be cherished and encouraged. I feel most people who dismiss is it as a useless language hated learning it in school as much as I did, and therin lies the problem.
    If it was made more interseting to learn maybe people would not grow up hating it.

    Very few people in this country had the viable option to use Irish as their first language.I for one lament this fact. Yes we need english, but having our own language gives us a degree of uniqueness. It gives us a sense of what this country once was. It helps us to remember who we once were.

    People seem to forget that our tourist industry was built on the phrase
    Cead Mile Failte. While those welcomes may have diminished over the years so has our sense of individuality. We are becoming like any other fragmented western society, devoid of culture and purpose.

    Im not saying the Irish language is the answer, its not. We will never all speak irish, I dont think I would want to. There is a responsibility however to insure that the language of our past is maintained for future generations who may be more appreciative of our culture and history.


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    #49
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Why can't they?

    Because they lack any reasonable level of fluency in the language.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Nobody is stopping anyone with the inclination from learning Irish if they really want to.

    Um... work, children, cost of learning perhaps? It cost me €240 euro for a 10 week course.. Not exactly the cheapest means of study. I've devoted a couple of hours a week that I have spare for the past 3 years, and I still can only must basic/intermediate conversational level Irish. It's not easy to learn a language.. and there are often no provisions to learn it in major towns and cities. Up until last year, there were no courses outside of a very basic level course for learning Irish in my city. I had to start up a conversational group to learn it.

    You are seriously underestimating the effort required to learn a language, especially after school where you have a 40 hour a week job and a family.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I think the Irish-language enthusiasts are deluding themselves if they think that a warm fuzzy feeling for the language is actually a powerful, repressed yearning.

    Don't be silly. Stop trying to exagerate our wording in an attempt to make it easier to downplay it. I never stated that people get a warm fuzzy feeling for the language, but people in the majority of Ireland would not see Irish being removed from our curriculum. I'd stake my car on it if a public referendum came up on the future of the language.

    You're deluded if you think everyone is content as you to remove the language from society. It's far from the truth, and that's the reality of it. If people really didn't want Irish in society, they would have had it removed from the curriculum a long time ago.


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    #50
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Im not saying the Irish language is the answer, its not. We will never all speak irish, I dont think I would want to. There is a responsibility however to insure that the language of our past is maintained for future generations who may be more appreciative of our culture and history.
    I can agree with this. But I won't vote for any party that plans to spend large amounts of money on this.

    Shutting down the Dept of the Gaeltact and repealing the provisions of the 'National Languages Act' that mandate that all services must be available in Irish, regardless of demand or cost, would be a very good start to saving the language by restoring the responsibilty for it to the people who wish to speak it.


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    #51
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner - What do you say to the results of this poll, with which the overwhelming majority of the people desired for the Irish language within education to be reformed and funding boosted?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054890081

    Only 15% objected to Irish within our society.


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    #52
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    I can agree with this. But I won't vote for any party that plans to spend large amounts of money on this.

    Shutting down the Dept of the Gaeltact and repealing the provisions of the 'National Languages Act' that mandate that all services must be available in Irish, regardless of demand or cost, would be a very good start to saving the language by restoring the responsibilty for it to the people who wish to speak it.

    The Dept of Gaeltacht is already part of community and rural affairs. Its not a standalone dept.


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    #53
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    NewDubliner - What do you say to the results of this poll, with which the overwhelming majority of the people desired for the Irish language within education to be reformed and funding boosted?
    How many people were polled, what measures taken to ensure it was representative. Who set the questions?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Only 15% objected to Irish within our society.
    What's that got to do with anything? Of course most people don't hate Irish. They just don't speak it.


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    #54
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    How many people were polled, what measures taken to ensure it was representative. Who set the questions?

    What's that got to do with anything? Of course most people don't hate Irish. They just don't speak it.

    Gaelscoileanna have been incredibly successful in attracting students and in most cases are turning away students every year. I think this shows a commitment from parents to encourage their children to speak Irish. A friend of mine sends her child to one, and she herself is originally from England.

    Would you object to money being spent on these schools which as well as teaching irish, provide a very good education for their students???


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    #55
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    How many people were polled, what measures taken to ensure it was representative. Who set the questions?

    500+ people. You just seem to avoiding the issue that the overwhelming majority supported the language.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    What's that got to do with anything? Of course most people don't hate Irish. They just don't speak it.

    I see you conveniently forgot that there was an option to "do nothing and leave it as it is". But rather than that - 72%+ opted for INCREASED FUNDING and SUPPORT for the language.

    Whether you like to admit it or not, the majority of the public do infact support the language and would like to see it alive in today's society. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Show me POLLS, or EVIDENCE where people categorically state that they want the language removed, or even a poll that hints at lack of support for the language.

    You can't! You know why? Because it's simply not the reality.


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    #56
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,030 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    Labour supporter, voted 4.

    Irish is a wonderfully poetic and beautiful language. I just wish I could write it half as well as I could speak it.


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    #57
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    Classic Stockholm Syndrome! The battered wife who just can't help but to go back and fawn over the abusive husband. The only way to deal with history is to acknowledge and accept it for good and for bad. Our history has played an important role in where our country is today.



    Talk about abuse. What did the state and church do since 1922 but abuse and oppress its citizens and children. We are not going back to that and Irish should be for those who want to immerse themselves in it and forget the outside world and not forced on our children or be an obstacle for those seeking a job and being refused because they do not have Irish. Sad is is not?


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    #58
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Talk about abuse. What did the state and church do since 1922 but abuse and oppress its citizens and children. We are not going back to that and Irish should be for those who want to immerse themselves in it and forget the outside world and not forced on our children or be an obstacle for those seeking a job and being refused because they do not have Irish. Sad is is not?

    Name these jobs


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    #59
    Erin Go Brath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭Erin Go Brath


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Talk about abuse. What did the state and church do since 1922 but abuse and oppress its citizens and children. We are not going back to that and Irish should be for those who want to immerse themselves in it and forget the outside world and not forced on our children or be an obstacle for those seeking a job and being refused because they do not have Irish. Sad is is not?

    +1 to that. Its a language to be enjoyed not endured. Make it relevant and modern to kids and thats half the battle. I also disagree with discriminating against people going for a job because they haven't passed Irish in the exams. I do think it should be made compulsory, up until Junior Cert level anyway. It should be optional for Leaving Cert.


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    #60
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Name these jobs

    Dr. David Bellamy the famous TV Zoologist once went for a job at UCG and was not shortlisted because he did not have Irish. it is well know that there are many jobs in the public sector not open to candidates without Irish.


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    #61
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Erin Go Brath wrote: »
    +1 to that. Its a language to be enjoyed not endured. Make it relevant and modern to kids and thats half the battle. I also disagree with discriminating against people going for a job because they haven't passed Irish in the exams. I do think it should be made compulsory, up until Junior Cert level anyway. It should be optional for Leaving Cert.

    Yes that would be a good compromise as only those genuinely interested would take up the language.


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