The Irish Language & Party Politics.

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

gaelic - is é gaeilge na hAlban

Ní aontaím le sin. An spórt Albanach é an pheil Ghaelach?

oscarBravo

This is an English-language forum - please post in English. There are forums on the site where posting in Irish is the norm, but this isn't one of them.

Karlusss

"Gaelic" is a broader term than just signifying Scottish Gaelic (Gaidhlig or Gaeilge na hAlban). Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge, Gaelg, Gaelainn, any more? don't want to offend anyone), Scottish Gaelic and Manx are all Gaelic languages.

So it's not strictly wrong to call Irish simply "Gaelic", but it's probably along the same lines as telling a Danish speaker they speak "North Germanic".

"Irish Gaelic" as a term is clearly useful if you're talking to someone unfamiliar with what exactly Irish/Gaeilge is, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.


Edit: As a side-note, it's kinda funny to observe the way people say there's no point in speaking Irish because nobody else does, and then other people telling people not to speak Irish because not everyone can.

conchubhar1

no they are goidelic languages

gaelic is used with peil to mean the gaa sport

otherwise gaelic on its own is own the scottish gaelic (pronounced gallic)

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Ní aontaím le sin. An spórt Albanach é an pheil Ghaelach? = i dont agree with that. is gaelic football, a scottish sport?

yaboyabobo

Pride in your country so be proud of our language.So there.

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

aran is a tourist area
most likely they were not locals

I know they were locals. They were sitting beside us and not trying to keep their conversation quiet, and they were interacting with people sitting on the other side of us (and no, they were not in any way ill-mannered; it was an informal environment). Our Irish is good enough for us to know who is a native speaker, and these lassies were.

anyway - it would be one of the weaker gaeltachts like iorras and daingean

If the Gaeltachts in south Connemara and Aran are weak, then all hope for the survival of the language is gone.

where is the place you saw it 30 years ago?

Near Inverin. I think you will find little Irish there now.

Look, I speak Irish, and I like Irish, and both Herself and I used it in Aran. I'm not wishing it away; I regret its demise. But there is no point in pretending that things are other than they are.

[I can find plenty of Irish west of Dingle.]

conchubhar1

Karlusss wrote: »

Edit: As a side-note, it's kinda funny to observe the way people say there's no point in speaking Irish because nobody else does, and then other people telling people not to speak Irish because not everyone can.

well if you know the person is not irish or not familar with it i would agree dont use ''gaeilge''

but they will understand ''irish''


gaelic is common, this does not affect how it is still wrong.

NewDubliner

yaboyabobo wrote: »

Pride in your country so be proud of our language.So there.

English is one of our national languages.

yaboyabobo

Ta mise i mo chonai i Londain.Nuair a bhionn seans agam,deanann me iarracht an teanga a chaint.Is as Beal an Mhuirthid ata me.Cheapaim nach bhfuil an cheart ag Enda agus e ina mhuinteoir roimhe.Bfeidir nach bhfuil an "spelling"go ro mhaith ach rinne me iarracht.Slan go foill.

conchubhar1

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If the Gaeltachts in south Connemara and Aran are weak, then all hope for the survival of the language is gone.

Near Inverin. I think you will find little Irish there now.

Look, I speak Irish, and I like Irish, and both Herself and I used it in Aran. I'm not wishing it away; I regret its demise. But there is no point in pretending that things are other than they are.

[I can find plenty of Irish west of Dingle.]

iorras is mayo - aran is a tourist area

inverin - near spiddal? near two irish colleges? no irish?

its demise has been predicted since the 1700's and possibly earlier

west of daingean there is lots of irish - in daingean there is some but to call it a real gaeltacht well......

conchubhar1

yaboyabobo wrote: »

Ta mise i mo chonai i Londain.Nuair a bhionn seans agam,deanann me iarracht an teanga a chaint.Is as Beal an Mhuirthid ata me.Cheapaim nach bhfuil an cheart ag Enda agus e ina mhuinteoir roimhe.Bfeidir nach bhfuil an "spelling"go ro mhaith ach rinne me iarracht.Slan go foill.

sin an rud is tabhactacht! thats the most important thing

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i live in londan. when i have the chance, i try my best to speak the language. i am from belmullet. i thought what enda said was wrong and he was a teacher before. maybe the spelling is not to good but i tried. bye for now.

translation of above so osacarBravo doesnt lock the thread.

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to above poster - it is a spoken language here, and in law it is our second language. depending on your outlook, it is not our national language.

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all posts in this thread i have translated - in the nearest post after it which is mine (so i could edit it)

P. Breathnach

oscarBravo wrote: »

This is an English-language forum - please post in English. There are forums on the site where posting in Irish is the norm, but this isn't one of them.

Come on, OB! Surely a little latitude should be allowed in a discussion like this. I was trying to make a point without going OTT.

It gets right up my nose that a great deal of Irish-language journalism involves covering the state of the language as a perennial hot topic. I find it almost as vexing to find people advocating the use of Irish when they themselves do not do so (and in at least some cases cannot do so).

yaboyabobo

Obviously ob hasnt a focail

conchubhar1

dont say that - you have to bring up points on his modship and help desk - oB is very picky on that

i have translated all posts of mine and others (in my post closest after theirs) that were as gaeilge.

yaboyabobo

If and when the Gaeilge is dead,people will lament its demise but it will ro deanach then.Our little contributions helps keep it beo.

Mr.Micro

yaboyabobo wrote: »

Ta mise i mo chonai i Londain.Nuair a bhionn seans agam,deanann me iarracht an teanga a chaint.Is as Beal an Mhuirthid ata me.Cheapaim nach bhfuil an cheart ag Enda agus e ina mhuinteoir roimhe.Bfeidir nach bhfuil an "spelling"go ro mhaith ach rinne me iarracht.Slan go foill.

I will bet that is awful useful in London, they must be crying out for more:rolleyes:

conchubhar1

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I will bet that is awful useful in London, they must be crying out for more:rolleyes:

what you find useful and others find useful is pretty damn suibiachtúil (subjective)

---
gaeilge = gaeilge/irish
ró déanach = too late
beo = (a)live

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

iorras is mayo - aran is a tourist area

Aran is a Gaeltacht with a permanent population of almost 1,000 people, almost all of whom speak Irish as a first language. Even in the presence of tourists, they are likely to speak Irish to one another. Except for those young women, who might be the thin end of the wedge. Some of them might marry and stay on the island, and raise English-speaking children.

inverin - near spiddal? near two irish colleges? no irish?

I didn't say no Irish; I said little Irish. The existence of an Irish college proves little except that a place is marked on the map as a Gaeltacht.

its demise has been predicted since the 1700's and possibly earlier

And it's happening. When I was a child, I met a native speaker of Irish from Omeath. You won't find one now.

west of daingean there is lots of irish - in daingean there is some but to call it a real gaeltacht well......

Dingle (to call it An Daingean is as silly as to call Irish Gaeilge) wasn't a Gaeltacht when it was first designated as one. It was part of an official pretence that the language is stronger than it was at the time.

conchubhar1

they might - they might pick up french also.

it means there is lots of irish trafic throughout - so its more than a map thing.

no, you think it is happening. i dont know where ometh is - but the liklihood of it having no fluent irish speaker is nearly impossible.

its name is an daingean, take it up with ó cuív or the natives ancestors.

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on omeath a quick google search gives - http://www.foinse.ie/cursaiocht.php?province=2&county=15
foinse was sold there - now i know that was out of business now - but surely someone bought it there and was fluent eneough to read it
anyway - omeath would have to be exceptional to have no irish fluent speakers

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Scoil Naomh Bhride, Ard Achaidh Omeath
Scoil Naomh Lorcan, Omeath

no irish spoken there - it is dead or dieing there? or anywhere?

http://wikimapia.org/2570814/ga/Ó-Méith

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louth dialect of irish read by two speakers

An Lú (translated as louth)

Brian Mac Cuarta
Ardachaidh, Ó Meith
‘M’athair agus slat iascaigh’

Brighid Ní Chaslaigh
Droim Lac, Ó Méith
Na huimhreacha 1-20

http://www.nuacht.com/colm/recordings.html - down the list - search ''an lú''

yaboyabobo

Stupidity has no boundaries.

conchubhar1

insulting is not allowed as it breaks forum charters

who was that directed at?

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

they might - they might pick up french also.

That makes no sense to me.

it means there is lots of irish trafic throughout - so its more than a map thing.

Do you know what a Gaeltacht is supposed to be?

no, you think it is happening. i dont know where ometh is - but the liklihood of it having no fluent irish speaker is nearly impossible.

I know fluent Irish speakers who live near Omeath. That's not the point. There are no native Irish speakers there, and have not been any for more than 50 years (well apart from Charlie from the Donegal Gaeltacht who went to live there -- but I am concerned here with the passing of a long-established local language tradition from parent to child, which is usually what is meant by native speaking).

its name is an daingean, take it up with ó cuív or the natives ancestors.

Dingle has been known by that name in English (and in other languages) since the seventeenth century and perhaps earlier. Local Irish speakers generally refer to it as An Daingean when speaking Irish and Dingle when speaking English. To prescribe anything else is silly, like King Canute ordering the tide not to rise. A language belongs to the people, and not to the government. Gaeltacht people don't use a gluaisteán or a rothar; they prefer a carr or a bicycle.

P. Breathnach

conchubhar1 wrote: »

insulting is not allowed as it breaks forum charters

who was that directed at?

It was clearly aimed at the stupid. I, for one, do not feel offended.

conchubhar1

might might might is my point (in reference to they might pick up english)

yes - you said there is no or little irish there. it is next to spiddal and a few irish colleges - obviously there is irish spoken there.

no native speakers? why is there two gaelscoils? - mentioned in my earlier posts

it may have been called so - but up till 1922 all place names were officially known by their english, fake, names.

carr is used in irish, for 100's of years - from cart and adapted to mean motorised cart, bad example.
rothar is also a relatively new concept, so the english loan word is there, and i dont mind it as do others.

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you dont feel offended? good for you - i would still like to know who that was directed at not because i think it was directed at me or that i am stupid - just because

Sand

Well, this poll is fairly useless ( Boards Politics forum is totally unrepresentitive of general Irish opinion after all) but funny to see that the two biggest homes of Gaelic are the Provos (no surprise...) and Fine Gael.

conchubhar1

fine gael - again - are about as pro irish as the tradional unionist voice and the dup

NewDubliner

conchubhar1 wrote: »

to above poster - it is a spoken language here, and in law it is our second language. depending on your outlook, it is not our national language.

I stand corrected. I am a second-class, English-speaking Irish citizen whose family is not of the pure ancient lineage, dating back to the High Kings, of the elite Irish-speaking caste. My humble and most abject apologies. Thank you for tolerating me and my family here for the past 800 years.

English is merely one of our official languages and Irish is 'The National Language' (that is only routinely spoken by a tiny minority of the population.)

If any party has a policy promoting English to position of equality with Irish, they might get my vote.

conchubhar1

no one second you are second class

the numbers of speakers - doesnt affect how irish is the national and ancient language of ireland

fine gael - would be your closest bet as to promoting english to the same as irish.
that is not needed, it is spoken more and by you which is all you need.
is your life affected by irish - does it take you milliseconds to deflect your eyes down to the english names on roadsigns

do you cringe when you hear irish and run to your radio and tv to turn them off?

Mr.Micro

conchubhar1 wrote: »

what you find useful and others find useful is pretty damn suibiachtúil (subjective)

---
gaeilge = gaeilge/irish
ró déanach = too late
beo = (a)live

Irish in London, how useful can that be? The mind boggles, oh maybe ordering a pint in Kilburn if one could find an Irish speaking barman.:D

conchubhar1

again - depends on how you define useful

but hey why would you read my post?

Mr.Micro

conchubhar1 wrote: »

again - depends on how you define useful

but hey why would you read my post?

Well I proposed a possible use of Irish in London, I would love to read your possible usefulness of Irish in London.

conchubhar1

i presume the above poster had some friends or family in london - they didnt speak to themselves in irish.

for them that is a use - for you probaly useless as you can ''just use english (ya taig)''
bracketed term is not directed at you

P. Breathnach

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Irish in London, how useful can that be? The mind boggles, oh maybe ordering a pint in Kilburn if one could find an Irish speaking barman.:D

I have used Irish in London (and Paris and Bologna Brussels and Budapest and Bangkok and probably in other places that don't immediately come to mind). It's useful for private conversation if you travel with a fellow Irish speaker.

I was served a pint in Kilburn by a barman from the Kerry Gaeltacht, but spoke English because not everybody in the company could speak Irish.

Mr.Micro

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have used Irish in London (and Paris and Bologna Brussels and Budapest and Bangkok and probably in other places that don't immediately come to mind). It's useful for private conversation if you travel with a fellow Irish speaker.

I was served a pint in Kilburn by a barman from the Kerry Gaeltacht, but spoke English because not everybody in the company could speak Irish.

Yes the use of Irish is limited to fellow speakers abroad and its use would be purely recreational.

conchubhar1

no it would be for communication also

Mr.Micro

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i presume the above poster had some friends or family in london - they didnt speak to themselves in irish.

for them that is a use - for you probaly useless as you can ''just use english (ya taig)''
bracketed term is not directed at you

Quite. Its tough enough trying to speak English and why confuse myself. I do not feel any less Irish or more for that matter just because I have discarded Irish, just like the Latin that I once learned but each to his/her own.

conchubhar1

that is good, use whatever you can or want.

like me and others using irish.

NewDubliner

conchubhar1 wrote: »

do you cringe when you hear irish and run to your radio and tv to turn them off?

I cringe when I see the excessive and unnecessary spending authorised by the 'Official Languages Act'.

For how long must a language be spoken in Ireland by the majority of the population before it can enjoy the status of 'National Language'?

SeanW

That's great - if you like using the Irish language, have fun. I'm happy for you. I have a problem when you impose that on other people (tax payers who must foot the bill for this "official language" (like translating documents that noone reads)) and school children who hate it, and force them to learn it even though for 95% of them it will be totally useless and they would have been enriched and enlightened way more by learning something else.

conchubhar1

well there is only one language that has been spoken in ireland for at least 1700 years
Gaeilge

i and others read them - i dislike motorways, i do not drive.... should i feel angry about paying for them? no of course not

like the 95% (random figure you used) that used their french or german? maths?

NewDubliner

conchubhar1 wrote: »

well there is only one language that has been spoken in ireland for at least 1700 years - Gaeilge

So the length of time it has been spoken, even if only by a fraction of the population, is more important than how many speak it now in their daily lives?

Why is it so important to Irish speakers to be the only 'National Language', are they not ready to give parity of esteem to their English-speaking fellow-citizens?

Deedsie

NewDubliner wrote: »

So the length of time it has been spoken, even if only by a fraction of the population, is more important than how many speak it now in their daily lives?

Why is it so important to Irish speakers to be the only 'National Language', are they not ready to give parity of esteem to their English-speaking fellow-citizens?

If English speakers would only give parity to Irish we might have some chance of using the language outside of Holidays in the west. There should be a Gaelteacht set up in every city in Ireland in my opinion. Doesnt have to cost millions just an area where people can meet and speak there native language.

conchubhar1

NewDubliner wrote: »

So the length of time it has been spoken, even if only by a fraction of the population, is more important than how many speak it now in their daily lives?

Why is it so important to Irish speakers to be the only 'National Language', are they not ready to give parity of esteem to their English-speaking fellow-citizens?

no - historicaly it is our native language - it just happens to be old and our oldest language on this island.

it is a fact, you may not feel it is your national language and you dont have to.
i speak english everyday - so hey i and others have no problem with english

bi-lingualism - it doesnt kill.

conchubhar1

Deedsie wrote: »

If English speakers would only give parity to Irish we might have some chance of using the language outside of Holidays in the west. There should be a Gaelteacht set up in every city in Ireland in my opinion. Doesnt have to cost millions just an area where people can meet and speak there native language.

there are small groups in pretty much all towns, and if not a cheap and quick busride away


but as we are forced into these small clubs and groups we are blighted with the term ''exclusive'' etc etc
ironic huh

yaboyabobo

My comment last evening was directed at narrow minded people who would like everybody to be of like mind as themselves.It definitely does not apply to Con or P.

yaboyabobo

We're getting there.Recorded messages in state buildings will be in Gaeilge and english in the very near future.So there.

conchubhar1

any chance at stating who it was aimed at - not too bothered if ya dont but..

yaboyabobo

Read it this morning on Midwestradio website where a Sligo td is claiming credit.Minister Manseragh states "in future,lifts and telephone systems in public buildings will use locally recorded bi-lingual messages.I'm not a fanatic and I was compelled to learn Gaeilge at school but I do feel strongly our native teanga should not die.As somebody remarked,I don't get many opportunities to speak it here in London but my name badge has my name in Gaeilge and a few people say "gura maith agat".As Tesco say,every little helps.

Mr.Micro

yaboyabobo wrote: »

We're getting there.Recorded messages in state buildings will be in Gaeilge and english in the very near future.So there.

What a break through.

My comment last evening was directed at narrow minded people who would like everybody to be of like mind as themselves.It definitely does not apply to Con or P.

Who might they be now, those of us that oppose compulsory Irish? The Irish speaking lobby are just as narrow minded if you wish to apply labels.


An example of a waste of money on RTE, the news in English followed immediately by an Nuacht. What a waste of licence fee money when the news can be had in Irish on TG4 all the time.

conchubhar1

and english news can be found on bbc, itv or skynews.......... never mind radio etc etc