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The Irish Language & Party Politics.

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    #62
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Dr. David Bellamy the famous TV Zoologist once went for a job at UCG and was not shortlisted because he did not have Irish. it is well know that there are many jobs in the public sector not open to candidates without Irish.

    If there is a requirement to be competent in the language, then yes - they should have Irish.


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    #63
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    dlofnep wrote: »
    500+ people. You just seem to avoiding the issue that the overwhelming majority supported the language.



    I see you conveniently forgot that there was an option to "do nothing and leave it as it is". But rather than that - 72%+ opted for INCREASED FUNDING and SUPPORT for the language.

    Whether you like to admit it or not, the majority of the public do infact support the language and would like to see it alive in today's society. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Show me POLLS, or EVIDENCE where people categorically state that they want the language removed, or even a poll that hints at lack of support for the language.

    You can't! You know why? Because it's simply not the reality.

    You'd think people who supported it that much would speak it more.

    Meh, have to admit I was somewhat pleased I could understand more of the Irish at the start of this thread than I expected, but compulsory to leaving cert level is madness.

    I would say everyything, including English and even Maths should be optional for Leaving Cert


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    #64
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    You'd think people who supported it that much would speak it more.

    If they could, I'm sure they would.

    I think many people are afraid to speak it incase they make a mistake, if they have a cúpla focal. Most new people to our group were very shy at the start and would listen rather than talk incase of making mistakes.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Meh, have to admit I was somewhat pleased I could understand more of the Irish at the start of this thread than I expected, but compulsory to leaving cert level is madness.

    I would say everyything, including English and even Maths should be optional for Leaving Cert

    At least your consistent, unlike some. And fair play - you'd be amazed by how much you remember when you try.


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    #65
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    500+ people. You just seem to avoiding the issue that the overwhelming majority supported the language.
    Based on a 'boards' poll of a small and limited sample of people, using loaded questions set to elicit answers that suit your arguments?
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Whether you like to admit it or not, the majority of the public do infact support the language and would like to see it alive in today's society.
    But the majority of the public don't speak Irish. That's how much they support it.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    Show me POLLS, or EVIDENCE where people categorically state that they want the language removed, or even a poll that hints at lack of support for the language.
    Whoever said the language should be removed? Is this some kind of 'straw man' argument?


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    #66
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    ... I would say everyything, including English and even Maths should be optional for Leaving Cert

    Things may have changed, but it used to be the case that English and Maths were in fact optional. Colleges and employers wanted people to have some proficiency with words and numbers, and treated English and Maths as proving such skills, so in effect they were treated as compulsory.


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    #67
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Based on a 'boards' poll of a small and limited sample of people, using loaded questions set to elicit answers that suit your arguments?

    Regardless of what poll provided, it still won't be good enough for you. I suppose this survey lacks merit also: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0422/breaking8.htm
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    But the majority of the public don't speak Irish. That's how much they support it.

    I really don't fancy going around in circles with this one. If you attribute them not speaking Irish because they dislike the language, or can't be bothered with the language - then you are mistaken. Your inability to accept the fact that them NOT being able to speak the language has an effect on them actually speaking the language is a little silly, but you're entitled to believe it if it makes you happy.
    Whoever said the language should be removed?

    Quite a few people actually. Then show me evidence from polls that show disinterest in the language. Instead of going around in circles with your one-track argument on people not speaking it, and thus being somehow connnecting to them not wanting to speak it.

    It is like telling someone who can't swim that they must not want to swim. Similar logic.


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    #68
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Regardless of what poll provided, it still won't be good enough for you. I suppose this survey lacks merit also: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0422/breaking8.htm
    It was sponsored by the Irish-language lobby, scripted to get the answers they wanted and the findings widely mis-represented. Minister O'Cuiv liked it because it justifies his position.

    The ony poll you need is to go and walk around our streets...the majority (millions of people, not a small sample) don't speak Irish and are not making any effort of any kind to learn it. Stop deluding yourself that inside every English-speaking Irish person, there's a Gaelgore struggling to get out.
    dlofnep wrote: »
    your one-track argument on people not speaking it, and thus being somehow connnecting to them not wanting to speak it.
    It's very simple: If the majority people wanted to speak Irish, they would. They don't. Not even a token 'coopla fukal'.

    Look at Wales, people wanted to speak Welsh and they did.


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    #69
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Taxipete29 wrote: »
    Gaelscoileanna have been incredibly successful in attracting students and in most cases are turning away students every year. I think this shows a commitment from parents to encourage their children to speak Irish. A friend of mine sends her child to one, and she herself is originally from England.

    Would you object to money being spent on these schools which as well as teaching irish, provide a very good education for their students???

    Newdubliner, you havent given me an answer to the above question??


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    #70
    Taxipete29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Taxipete29


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Dr. David Bellamy the famous TV Zoologist once went for a job at UCG and was not shortlisted because he did not have Irish. it is well know that there are many jobs in the public sector not open to candidates without Irish.

    There are many jobs in this country a person cannot do without French, German, Spanish etc.

    If it is a requirement for a job then you must know how to speak it. TBH though all you are giving here is anecdotal evidence and not specifing jobs so we might determine if Irish would really be necessary.


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    #71
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    thebman wrote: »

    It isn't because I can't speak it, it is because nobody else does so whats the point?

    QUOTE]

    I know a few people who speak it. And love it.


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    #72
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    It was sponsored by the Irish-language lobby, scripted to get the answers they wanted and the findings widely mis-represented. Minister O'Cuiv liked it because it justifies his position.

    Like I said, no matter what poll I present to you - it still won't be good enough, because you continue to dismiss support for the language despite all polling stating otherwise.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    The ony poll you need is to go and walk around our streets...the majority (millions of people, not a small sample) don't speak Irish and are not making any effort of any kind to learn it.

    Once again, not entirely attributed to them NOT wanting to learn the language. Language study is very time consuming, and after school - it's very hard to pick up a language or find time to study it.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Stop deluding yourself that inside every English-speaking Irish person, there's a Gaelgore struggling to get out.

    When did I state otherwise? I stated that there is support for the language by the majority of the people, and that people in their majority enjoy it as part of our curriculum.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    It's very simple: If the majority people wanted to speak Irish, they would. They don't. Not even a token 'coopla fukal'.

    Look at Wales, people wanted to speak Welsh and they did.

    Firstly - the majority of Welsh people don't speak welsh, it is concentrated in the North and West parts of Wales, similar to the Gaeltacht regions of Ireland.. Like Ireland, it has many speakers scattered throughout the rest of the country.

    However, I would agree that Welsh is slightly more visible outside of Welsh speaking strongholds, but this has little to do with them wanting to speak Welsh more than Irish people wanting to speak Irish.

    Welsh-medium education accounts for over 20% of all schools in Wales, while Gaelscoileanna barely make the bones of 10% of the population in Ireland. So - More people in Wales are equipped to use the language. So you see, in Wales - the more people who can speak the language use it. In retrospect, in Ireland - the more people who can speak it, will use it also.


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    #73
    astrofool
    Registered Users Posts: 16,699 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It's also not being forced upon the Welsh, which, I believe, is the Irish languages greatest folly.

    It has to become something people want to learn, rather than have to learn.


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    #74
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    astrofool wrote: »
    It's also not being forced upon the Welsh, which, I believe, is the Irish languages greatest folly.

    Wrong. It's a mandatory subject in school. Do any of you guys research what you are saying before you post? Welsh people spend 12 years studying the Welsh language in school. On top of that, there is as I have already mentioned 20% of the population attending Welsh medium schools.

    You don't hear the Welsh pissing & moaning about a language being forced on them.


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    #75
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I have been to Wales recently, and there is a pride in their language, many Welsh people speak it, it is liked, it is loved, and it is tolerated, but never hated. Sadly the same cannot be said of the Irish language, here the language is also taught from primary school right up to leaving cert, wherby many students leave school knowing virtually nothing of the language :confused:

    A few speak Irish, a few more love it, some really like it, most Irish people tolerate it, but many more cant stand it, "I don't know why", but the Irish language just doesnt have that wide lovable appeal that Welsh has.

    The fault might lie in the compulsive nature of the teaching here (or lack of) . . . ?


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    #76
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    dlofnep wrote: »
    ... You don't hear the Welsh pissing & moaning about a language being forced on them.

    That may be true. I certainly haven't heard any.

    But I have heard many English residents in Wales complaining (that might be why Welsh people don't).


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    #77
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    I have been to Wales recently, and there is a pride in their language, many Welsh people speak it, it is liked, it is loved, and it tolerated, but never hated. Sadly the same cannot be said of the Irish language, here the language is also taught from primary school right up to leaving cert, wherby many students leave school knowing virtually nothing of the language :confused

    I agree that the educational system certainly plays an important factor on determining or skewing opinion of the language. It is true that the medium of which Irish is taught needs to change in order to ensure that everyone has a competent level of Irish. More gaelscoilenna, and also - subjects taught through Irish outside of them.. Maybe history for example would certainly lead to improved levels of Irish nationwide.

    A few speak Irish, a few more love it, some like it, most Irish people tolerate it, but many more cant stand it, "I don't know why", but the Irish language just doesnt have that wide lovable appeal that Welsh has.
    Camelot wrote: »
    The fault might lie in the compulsive nature of the teaching here (or lack of) . . . ?

    I'm unsure what this means, as we've already determined that both Welsh & Irish are mandatory subjects. The only difference is Wales has the advantage of 20% of the schooling being entirely Welsh-medium schools, opposed to the 10% of Gaelscoilenna. 20% is enough to impact society, where the language is much more visible in daily conversation.

    The Welsh still have work to do on the language, and they understand that. But they are not calling for the language to be scrapped, but to be improved. And most people in Ireland have continuously called for the language, and methods of teaching it to be improved. I don't think the issue is with the language being mandatory - but for the sake of saving it, I wouldn't have any qualms with dropping the language as a mandatory requirement for University (unless the course specifically requires the language).


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    #78
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    That may be true. I certainly haven't heard any.

    But I have heard many English residents in Wales complaining (that might be why Welsh people don't).

    Probably, because they don't like the Welsh taking the piss out of them in a language they can't understand. :p

    I think Irish & Welsh language movements should work together on language strategy for sure. Both have a lot to learn from each other.


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    #79
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Wrong. It's a mandatory subject in school. Do any of you guys research what you are saying before you post? Welsh people spend 12 years studying the Welsh language in school. On top of that, there is as I have already mentioned 20% of the population attending Welsh medium schools.

    You don't hear the Welsh pissing & moaning about a language being forced on them.

    That's interesting, because that is exactly what I want for the Irish language. Compulsory in primary school/Junior cert, then optional for leaving

    I think then because its optional for the most stressful time, it would have the effect that some people who feel its part of their patriotism would do it(as well as those natually good at languages/liked the subject) rather than be turned against it out of teenage rebellion. Think of all the people who say "I'd love to be fluent in Irish" who hated it when they were in school.

    Another good effect would be that the board of education for Irish would be forced into teaching it as a modern spoken language. Which could have the knock on effect of Irish people speaking it regularly.

    If we didn't have to do it for leaving(like the Welsh A-Level) I doubt anyone would be pissing and moaning about it.


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    #80
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    You know - Originally I was hesitant at the idea of optional gaeilge for leaving cert. If it means that we can remove the stigma, and allow for the likes of Sand to go to college - then maybe it will better the movement. Maybe my hesitancy comes as a reactionary movement to those who call from it to be completely removed from mandatory education. Although I've asked, they have yet to reply on when it stops becoming mandatory and when it becomes optional.

    I'm still undecided. I'm reading a book at the moment called Reversing language shift
    By Joshua A. Fishman. There is a specific chapter on the Irish language in it which I'm going to cover. I'll give my thoughts when I'm finished. It might take me a week or two.


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    #81
    eddyc
    Registered Users Posts: 360 ✭✭eddyc


    The language is no doubt a part of the cultural landscape of Ireland, as is our music, literature, dance etc... I see no reason to give the language any special significance or status. Should it be that all aspects of the culture should be thought compulsorily in schools?
    Why is it that the language is elevated beyond anything else?
    Why not have mandatory Irish X class? It certainly doesn't increase chances of employment for most people, other than some college entrance requirements.
    Should we teach old french in our schools for all those descended from the anglo normans, where should it stop exactly?
    That sounds a bit ridiculous, but really, English is part of mine and many more Irish peoples culture, way more so than the Irish language.

    It would be best for everyone if they came to Irish voluntarily, with curiousity and a genuine interest in learning, rather than having it foisted upon them. That turned me off learning it and many others it seems.


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    #82
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    dlofnep wrote: »
    You know - Originally I was hesitant at the idea of optional gaeilge for leaving cert. If it means that we can remove the stigma, and allow for the likes of Sand to go to college - then maybe it will better the movement. Maybe my hesitancy comes as a reactionary movement to those who call from it to be completely removed from mandatory education. Although I've asked, they have yet to reply on when it stops becoming mandatory and when it becomes optional.

    I'm still undecided. I'm reading a book at the moment called Reversing language shift
    By Joshua A. Fishman. There is a specific chapter on the Irish language in it which I'm going to cover. I'll give my thoughts when I'm finished. It might take me a week or two.

    I don't really blame you man. There are a lot of anti-gaelige extremists out there so give it some thought. Looking forward to your review


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    #83
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    there is a lot of anti irish culture elements in general - and anti irishness
    the language is just the easiest to attack

    anyway - i am still utterly shocked that fg have votes

    they are as pro irish as the tuv and dup


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    #84
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I really wish people would stop using the word "gaeilge" in English sentences. It makes no more sense than me saying my Français is OK, but my Dansk isn't so hot.


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    #85
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    to be as nice as possible, no.

    it is not the same as those examples as this is an irish board - most here are irish, all who are irish understand what is meant by ''gaeilge''.


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    #86
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    to be as nice as possible, no.

    it is not the same as those examples as this is an irish board - most here are irish, all who are irish understand what is meant by ''gaeilge''.

    Also, Anti-Irish can imply a lot more than anti-gaelige


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    #87
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    indeed

    irish has a lot of meanings and connotations


    gaeilge has but one


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    #88
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    to be as nice as possible, no.
    Suit yourself - I think it looks stupid when typed and sounds stupid when said out loud, in precisely the same way as the examples I gave.
    it is not the same as those examples as this is an irish board - most here are irish, all who are irish understand what is meant by ''gaeilge''.
    I don't think too many people would misunderstand "Français" or "Dansk" either, but it still sounds pretentious and stupid to say those words in an English sentence.


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    #89
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    right - i dont care what you view as stupid.

    again - that would mainly be because this is not a french or danish forum - bad example.

    i also think using latin is pretentious - is that relevant? (re your thing under your name)


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    #90
    Kev_ps3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    I hate when the anglo-Irish say that if we spoke out native language we would go back to the stone age. Nearly every country speaks its native language. Its just scare tactics imo.


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    #91
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    right - i dont care what you view as stupid.
    Clearly.
    again - that would mainly be because this is not a french or danish forum - bad example.
    If it was a French or Danish forum I'd be typing in French or Danish. If I was typing in English on a French or Danish forum, I'd use the words "French" or "Danish".
    i also think using latin is pretentious - is that relevant? (re your thing under your name)
    Is it used in an English-language sentence?


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