The Irish Language & Party Politics.

Permabear

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conchubhar1

well that is going on the fact that the 13 years was in anyway useful

which in most case it was not - it was awful and helped worsen your irish and your viewpoint on it


you will be happy with what a week could do - should you wish

Permabear

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conchubhar1

well - it wasnt helful, useless is your opinion.

a - respectfuly bollix
b - respectfuly bollix (anytime i or people i know go to the gaeltacht we have never experienced that and we all have book irish with a tad natural from daily use)

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Would it be credible enough for you if I did? I already cited a survey taken by the Government, and a public poll on boards.ie - All in favour of the Irish language. Unless you can show me a survey or poll that states otherwise, I think my claim is perfectly sensical.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I use Irish. All of my friends use it. I speak Irish everyday to my friends, and across social networking sites. I listen to Irish radio. Irish is a very relevant part of my everyday life. It is also a part of many other people's daily lives.

Nobody is claiming the entire population speaks Irish, or that the entire population wants to support it. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the majority of the population are content with support for the language, and that Irish for many people in Ireland today, is very relevant, and increasingly so in the past few years.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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I always use Irish when I go to the gaeltacht, and I'm always encouraged by the locals even if I'm not entirely fluent yet. When was the last time you went to a Gaeltacht? Aside from being near one in Donegal - Something tells me that you never had a positive outlook, even before you went. Think negative, and something might just be negative.

As for Paris - Most of the locals can speak English. Does that mean that they shouldn't speak French? Same as the Gaeltacht, while they can speak English - that doesn't mean that they shouldn't speak Irish.

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

Vast majority = boards.ie poll, right?

A number of surveys, what makes the boards poll any less credible? Afterall, it's just opinion. Why don't you show me a survey that states otherwise, instead of attacking the credibility of polls?

Soldie wrote: »

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

Yeah, great input there buddy. Can we try keep it positive, as I don't want this thread turned into a flame-war. I'd like to have it kept open so we can debate the issue further.

dlofnep

Donegal a question for you.

Do you think that general use of Irish has increased or decreased outside of the Gaeltacht in recent years? Also, do you think that the majority of people are discontent with support of the Irish language?

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not going to deny your Irish identity on such a slight basis. It is a big question, and there is far more to being Irish than a high level of competence in the language. [I almost got drawn into starting to say what is involved in being Irish but, lordy, I don't have the time (even though I am retired).]

It [dealing with the state and its agents] turns into a simple problem of logistics. The number of public servants in the country actually exceeds the number of people whose first language is Irish. As such, the native Irish speaker cannot consistently expect to deal with "the state and its agents" through the medium of Irish.

I didn't suggest that every public servant should have the capacity to work in Irish. What I would suggest is that every state body or agency should have some such capacity among its staff, and a little bit of flexibility. I once worked in an office with about 50 staff, and I was the one most comfortable using Irish. The few members of the public who wanted to deal with the office in Irish were referred to me (or their letters were); even if they were not part of my normal case load, I dealt with them. Such strategies are not too difficult, nor do they significantly impair the ability of the public service to perform.

Irish is a "native language of this land" historically, but not in the actual pragmatic reality of today's world. Even the most ardent proponent of the language has to accept that reality.

There is more to life than pragmatism. We are set in a historic continuum, and many, I think most, of us recognise that at some level. For example, I am sure you, as a scholar of English, are aware that Hiberno-English reflects that continuum, and that its syntax owes much to the Irish language.

You may have inferred that I am not the most ardent proponent of Irish, but I would no more wish us to discard it than I would close the National Museum or the National Library, or refuse to listen to Horslips or to attend a Brian Friel play.

Soldie

dlofnep wrote: »

A number of surveys, what makes the boards poll any less credible? Afterall, it's just opinion. Why don't you show me a survey that states otherwise, instead of attacking the credibility of polls?

Of course. According to this poll, Sinn Féin are the most popular Irish political party, too. Someone ought to tell them.

Do you notice that those taking the Republican side in the weekly Northern Ireland debates also seem to be the ones who ignore reality and unconditionally support the Irish language at every oppurtunity, too? Would you accept that your support for the languague is motivated more by politics than pragmatism?

Yeah, great input there buddy. Can we try keep it positive, as I don't want this thread turned into a flame-war. I'd like to have it kept open so we can debate the issue further.

I'll let the moderators do the moderating, thanks.

Deedsie

Soldie wrote: »

Of course. According to this poll, Sinn Féin are the most popular Irish political party, too. Someone ought to tell them.

Do you notice that those taking the Republican side in the weekly Northern Ireland debates also seem to be the ones who ignore reality and unconditionally support the Irish language at every oppurtunity, too? Would you accept that your support for the languague is motivated more by politics than pragmatism?



I'll let the moderators do the moderating, thanks.

No, i wouldnt accept that. I am a Nationalist. My views on the Irish language are completely removed from my views on the North.

I think our language is the most precious resource we have in this country. I think we have been told long enough that our ways and our customs are not worth keeping.

I want a bilingual Ireland where English and Irish hold the exact same legislation protecting them.

You cant actually be supportive of anything Irish on this site without it coming back to the North.

I couldnt speak Irish when i left school. I did a course in UL a few years ago and now i can speak the language and understand it. 20 people in my class that year, most of them parents who wanted to be able help there kids with Irish Homework/bring there kids up with Irish as the primary language in the home.

Certainly what ill be doing.

NewDubliner

dlofnep wrote: »

I already cited a survey taken by the Government,-

Hold one a minute, back up there....That is not true.

The survey you referred to was not taken by the government. It was funded and scripted by an Irish-language promotion group. It was privately published. Its endorsement by the Minister for the Gaeltact is hardly surprising as it justifies his rather large budget.

dlofnep wrote: »

Unless you can show me a survey or poll that states otherwise,

Over 4 million Irish people don't speak Irish. Is that poll not big enough?

dlofnep wrote: »

But I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the majority of the population are content with support for the language,

Can you show a survey where people were asked if they favoured unlimited funds being committed to providing all government services in Irish, regardless of demand?

P. Breathnach

NewDubliner wrote: »

... Over 4 million Irish people don't speak Irish. Is that poll not big enough?

What is your evidence for that?

Can you show a survey where people were asked if they favoured unlimited funds being committed to providing all government services in Irish, regardless of demand?

That looks to me like a loaded question. If you want a measured discussion, you really should put things in a more neutral tone.

NewDubliner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

What is your evidence for that?

Everyone I know or work with speaks English. The only signs in Irish are those mandated by law. Do we really need a survey to tell us that the extent of support for Irish is for the most part goodwill but nothing like a commitment to speak it?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That looks to me like a loaded question. If you want a measured discussion, you really should put things in a more neutral tone.

It's far less loaded than the questions in the self-serving surveys used by the Irish lobby to justify the wasteful costs of implementing the Official Languages Act.

P. Breathnach

NewDubliner wrote: »

Everyone I know or work with speaks English. The only signs in Irish are those mandated by law. Do we really need a survey to tell us that the extent of support for Irish is for the most part goodwill but nothing like a commitment to speak it?

So you rubbish a survey cited by dlofnep, give us a number of your own, and have no evidence to support it. That's hardly a fair or balanced approach.

It's far less loaded than the questions in the self-serving surveys used by the Irish lobby to justify the wasteful costs of implementing the Official Languages Act.

As I already said, if you want a measured discussion, you really should put things in a more neutral tone. Are you now taking the position that you don't want a measured discussion?

Permabear

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NewDubliner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So you rubbish a survey cited by dlofnep, give us a number of your own, and have no evidence to support it. That's hardly a fair or balanced

dlofnep misrepresented the true nature of the survey praised by Minister O'Cuiv. How's that for fair and balanced?

I have produced evidence - the patently obvious fact that the majority of the population don't care enough about Irish to speak it themselves. Do you need a survey to confirm this fact?

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As I already said, if you want a measured discussion, you really should put things in a more neutral tone. Are you now taking the position that you don't want a measured discussion?

OK then:

"Should a limit be placed on the costs imposed by the Official Langauges Act"?

P. Breathnach

NewDubliner wrote: »

dlofnep misrepresented the true nature of the survey praised by Minister O'Cuiv. How's that for fair and balanced?

I don't have an opinion on that, because I was not sufficiently interested in the point dlofnep was making. I do look on many surveys of that nature with a leary eye.

I have produced evidence - the patently obvious fact that the majority of the population don't care enough about Irish to speak it themselves. Do you need a survey to confirm this fact?

I need a formal study if you put a number on it. If you leave it as a general observation that accords with what can readily be observed, I'm okay with that.

OK then:
"Should a limit be placed on the costs imposed by the Official Langauges Act"?

Much more to my liking.

Personally, I wouldn't set a limit; I'd repeal the Act and try again with a completely different (and inexpensive) approach. I would like to see a good deal of public use of Irish, but not in the oppressive way that is imposed by the Act. And I don't want, and would not tolerate, rubbishy Irish, of which we see rather a lot.

jank

Over 4 million Irish people don't speak Irish

What is your evidence for that?

Everyone I know or work with speaks English

WOW, NewDubliner you know 4 million people! Must be the most popular guy on facebook!:D :rolleyes:

LordSutch

conchubhar1 wrote: »

anyway - i am still utterly shocked that fg have votes

they are as pro irish as the tuv and dup

fg are as pro Irish as the tuv and dup

I am shocked that the Shinners have 11 votes, because to me & most of the Southern electorate 'their' narrow brand of Irishness is anathema to the wider more embracing Irishness (& my own fg leanings), which would in turn be more Unionist accommodating, and as regards the Irish language, there must be just as many Irish speakers in Fine gael as there are in Sinn Fein (if not more)!

The Irish Language is certainly not the preserve of Sinn Fein in Party Politics, and thats for sure ............

ChocolateSauce

Voted Labour-1.

ChocolateSauce

donegalfella wrote: »

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You know what donegalfella? Very frequently I find there's no point to me posting anything because you've already said exactly what I was gonna say only far more eloquently and concisely that I could easily manage.

Not sure I would have used the Horslips as an example though.

thebman

donegalfella wrote: »

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I agree completely with this. Trying to force people to learn Irish, only creates Irish haters, it isn't making more people fluent.

If it was optional then the people that want to learn it can learn it and everyone else can do another subject.

MysticalRain

Exactly. You can have your culture. Just don't go shoving it down everybody's throats.