Bord Snip to present findings

Senna

Anyone what to guess what they will be?

A 5 billion saving has been mentioned? but what form will it take? Childrens allowance will be means tested, but i'm guessing thats only a small percentage. Some gov departments will be merged, but again i doubt the costs saved will be much.

Will there be significant cuts in PS/CS staff numbers? or will it be a usual natural wastage/voluntary redundancy program? Will Dole be cut? or is that more a change for budget time?

ednwireland

everything that can be cut fro the least well off in our society, front line services to be slashed across the board, no reform of public sector or jobs/wage cuts (turkeys dont vote for christmas)

sure you know it in your heart its the FF way

i am a cynic

Riskymove

ednwireland wrote: »

no reform of public sector or jobs/wage cuts (turkeys dont vote for christmas)

according to reports this morning it recommends getting rid of 3 Ministers and re-organising two whole govt departments into others

it will also recommend significant cuts in numbers through natural wastage, early retirement etc

Firefox10

Riskymove wrote: »

.....re-organising two whole govt departments into others

it will also recommend significant cuts in numbers through natural wastage, early retirement etc

So they just be moving the chess pieces around the board then...no real cuts to public sector jobs or wages. I might have guessed.:rolleyes:

Riskymove

Firefox10 wrote: »

So they just be moving the chess pieces around the board then...no real cuts to public sector jobs or wages. I might have guessed.:rolleyes:

i'd say reducing public sector numbers by thousands could be described as a cut

in fairness to the Group they were asked to look at structures and services to see where savings could be made...not to review pay

there is supposed to be a seperate review of high level public service pay undertaken

steof1984

I think they will count children’s benefit as income and you will be taxed on it. I think they hope that Natural Wastage will solve the problem of Public Sector Numbers. 2700 people have left the Public Service since Jan this year, I think the Natural Wastage figures are somewhere around 3000 a year.

I reckon it will be a lot more this year because of the Early Retirement scheme in the Public Service also the Public Servants fear of a tax being introduced on their gratuity

I honestly don’t think they could afford to lay off Public Sector workers. They will have to pay huge redundancy to most of the staff. Then you have to figure into the equation the loss of that individuals tax contributions, plus their fresh welfare claims.

Riskymove

steof1984 wrote: »

I honestly don’t think they could afford to lay off Public Sector workers. They will have to pay huge redundancy to most of the staff. Then you have to figure into the equation the loss of that individuals tax contributions, plus their fresh welfare claims.

exactly, its the most efficient way of reducing numbers; if they do not replace people for a couple of years they will signficantly reduce the pay bill

in addition there is likely to be wholesale reduction in state agencies (or quangos if you prefer) with most functions going back to Departments, this will also save a large amount of funding

Firefox10

Fair Enough. But i still think that this sniping around the edges still does not get to the hart of the problems of how the public sector is run. Public sector reform have been promised for years. We are talking of a time scale of years here. Can we really afford that timescale at the moment?

Riskymove

Firefox10 wrote: »

Fair Enough. But i still think that this sniping around the edges still does not get to the hart of the problems of how the public sector is run. Public sector reform have been promised for years. We are talking of a time scale of years here. Can we really afford that timescale at the moment?

again public sector reform is not part of the remit of this group (unless reform just means cutting numbers? but I'd prefer something more lasting)

and again...there is a seperate process underway (allegedly) on reform

while i appreciate the comment about timescale there has been little evidence to show that rushing something through is very effective

steof1984

We cant afford anything else.

Average Redundancy payment will be around €50,000 (some a lot less, some a lot more) there is a redundancy calculator on the enterprise website.

So we have 300,000 Public Servants. They decide 10% should go = 30,000

That’s €1.5 Billion it would cost just in redundancy payments (and I think it’s a conservative estimate)

Then you will have an extra 30,000 people claiming welfare.


Unfortunately Natural Wastage is the only affordable way to go.

JonathanAnon

steof1984 wrote: »

Unfortunately Natural Wastage is the only affordable way to go.

I'm not sure we can afford to carry them that long though. Paying them off now may be the best option. The average wage is 50,600 euro a year (so it said on Morning Ireland), so even if they went on the dole €10,000 + benefits, there would be a long term saving for the state. I say fire them now, starting with Cullen. Waterford's gonna vote him out after what happened with Waterford Glass anyway.

Sickening the way the state bends over backwards for civil servants and does everything they can to fk over the self employed.

Riskymove

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I'm not sure we can afford to carry them that long though. Paying them off now may be the best option. The average wage is 50,600 euro a year (so it said on Morning Ireland), so even if they went on the dole €10,000 + benefits, there would be a long term saving for the state. I say fire them now, starting with Cullen. Waterford's gonna vote him out after what happened with Waterford Glass anyway.

as mentioned above, average redundancy estimated at €50,000 each makes that a pretty pointless exercise

with regard to Ministers its suggesting that a couple of Minister posts could be dropped, that does not mean it would be Cullen specifically fired and anyway he'd still be a TD

Spudmonkey

Anyway the fact that possible cuts could be identified doesn't mean they will be implemented. Does anyone know if the full report is to be published?

Riskymove

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Anyway the fact that possible cuts could be identified doesn't mean they will be implemented. Does anyone know if the full report is to be published?

thats a cabinet decision to be made next week apparantly

in any event I expect it to be leaked

ceret

JonathanAnon wrote: »

IThe average wage is 50,600 euro a year (so it said on Morning Ireland), so even if they went on the dole €10,000 + benefits, there would be a long term saving for the state.

Not really. if you're on €50k then you're going to paying more then €10k per year in tax. So the gov gets €10k less tax, and has to pay €10k more benefits, means it's costing the state €20k if that person is fired and goes onto the dole.

Aviator55

You really have to be cynical.
Public servants were paid 17% more than their private sector equivalents even before the various benchmarking rip-offs, and that is ignoring their lavish pensions and total job security.
Productivity has always been desperate.
The fact that Guards, army and teachers retire in their early fifties to look forward to 40 years of ever increasing pensions is a disgrace.
If the government do not take this opportunity for total reform, making the public service professional and equalizing pay with the real economy, it deserves to be thrown out.

ixoy

Just curious - why would the average settlement be 50k? What sort of redundancy scheme is in place? 6 weeks per year of service, capped at 10 (or something like that)? That'd make sense on an average of 50k.

In my opinion

Aviator55 wrote: »

You really have to be cynical.
Public servants were paid 17% more than their private sector equivalents even before the various benchmarking rip-offs, and that is ignoring their lavish pensions and total job security.
Productivity has always been desperate.
The fact that Guards, army and teachers retire in their early fifties to look forward to 40 years of ever increasing pensions is a disgrace.
If the government do not take this opportunity for total reform, making the public service professional and equalizing pay with the real economy, it deserves to be thrown out.

Guards 30 years service Full pension.
Soldier 21 years pension.
Teacher 40 years service to get full pension 40/80.

Teachers retire in early 50's?? If so its not on full pension.

John Mason

Riskymove wrote: »

in addition there is likely to be wholesale reduction in state agencies (or quangos if you prefer) with most functions going back to Departments, this will also save a large amount of funding

this is what i am scared of, we have been given loads of re-assurance that we are brilliant etc. and the government are extending the programme to 2013 but i have a feeling i will be hitting the dole queue by christmas

astrofool

ceret wrote: »

Not really. if you're on €50k then you're going to paying more then €10k per year in tax. So the gov gets €10k less tax, and has to pay €10k more benefits, means it's costing the state €20k if that person is fired and goes onto the dole.

If you're on 50k and pay 10k tax, then it costs the government 40k per year to keep that person.

Fire that person today, give them redundancy (say 50k), they go on social welfare (cost 10k).

Savings:
Year 1: -20k
Year 2: +30k (40k salary saved, -10k social welfare)
Year 3: +30k

Long term you save a lot, even if they don't get a job.

I think the big change for the public sector, has to be to make them actually start working. We need the services there, but the union has such control, that nothing gets done.

Cut overtime - if they don't get their job done during the ~40 hour week, they should be fired
Cut wages to match the private sector (at a minimum, job security is worth at least 20% extra in wages).
Free movement across departments, without requiring bonuses/promotions.
Get rid of a prescribed amount of sick days, what idiot ever agreed to this?
People on sick notes have to have their sickness verified by a doctor that works for the public sector. (we knew someone who had a sick note that they could only work 3 days a week, and worked another job every Monday and Wednesday, while on full public sector pay).
Reduce the barrier for entry to permanent public sector jobs (teaching especially), this isn't a club for those who have made it, but a public service, that requires new blood.

and most of all:

For the HSE, take 66% of the pen pushers (the amount extra we have over other well run health services such as in France, and the amount that should have been fired when they created the HSE except for Bertie's interference), take them to the killing floor of a slaughter house, slice them up and reconstitute their bits as doctors and nurses (who actually, you know, heal sick people and children).

Besides that:
Raise taxes another 1%
Cut social welfare by 5-10% this year (with more cuts to come)
Develop a proper system to track people being refused a job they are suitable for to see if they are actually seeking work.
Means test child benefit so those who earn up to ~€100k-€120k income per family get it, or add it as a tax credit and increase it slightly. (so those most in need get more).
Drop VAT to 20% this year (to 18% next year if consumer spending goes up).
Start slowly cutting VRT, add the difference to fuel cost (VRT is making nothing these days, and is only a boom time tax, i.e. very bad to rely on)
Start slowly cutting stamp duty to a level of 2%, bring in property tax at first on homes occupied for > 25 years, then 20 years and so on.
Give property tax to the local councils, not the government.
Increase the payback on Corrib from 25% to 30%, with immediate payback, construction costs to be paid off over the life of the field, rather than up front.
Tax cigarrettes and alcohol more.
Cut the minimum wage to encourage the setup of SME's.
Guarantee no corporation tax rises for at least10 years.
Give large tax breaks to R&D.
Give large tax breaks to green technology companies, have a fast track system of planning permission for renewable energy.

i.e. make the economy sustainable

JonathanAnon

ceret wrote: »

Not really. if you're on €50k then you're going to paying more then €10k per year in tax. So the gov gets €10k less tax, and has to pay €10k more benefits, means it's costing the state €20k if that person is fired and goes onto the dole.

true about the 10k, but it's a viable option particularly for the high earners. Obviously those on 20-30k, with a family etc etc would earn near just as much in kind with dole + benefits + redundancy, so it would not make sense to get rid of those people. However those over 50k who could be let go, WOULD save the state money in the long run.

ceret

astrofool wrote: »

If you're on 50k and pay 10k tax, then it costs the government 40k per year to keep that person.

Fire that person today, give them redundancy (say 50k), they go on social welfare (cost 10k).

Oh yes, it's not a real saving since that person is being paid for by the public purse anyways.

Cut overtime - if they don't get their job done during the ~40 hour week, they should be fired
Cut wages to match the private sector (at a minimum, job security is worth at least 20% extra in wages).

Free movement across departments, without requiring bonuses/promotions.
Get rid of a prescribed amount of sick days, what idiot ever agreed to this?
People on sick notes have to have their sickness verified by a doctor that works for the public sector. (we knew someone who had a sick note that they could only work 3 days a week, and worked another job every Monday and Wednesday, while on full public sector pay).
Reduce the barrier for entry to permanent public sector jobs (teaching especially), this isn't a club for those who have made it, but a public service, that requires new blood.

Oh you mean proper benchmarking

Riskymove

astrofool wrote: »

I think the big change for the public sector, has to be to make them actually start working. We need the services there, but the union has such control, that nothing gets done.

There's been plenty of public sector bashing on threads recently and here's another offensive piece of rubbish

there are plenty of public sector workers who do their work efficiently and effectively and the biggest, most frustrating issue is the under or indeed non performance of others

whats needed is proper reform to allow such issues ot be dealt with not populist "tar everyone the same" crap

Cut overtime - if they don't get their job done during the ~40 hour week, they should be fired
Cut wages to match the private sector (at a minimum, job security is worth at least 20% extra in wages).

Not all public sector get overtime

many work more than 40 hours a week

Benchmarking (waste of resource that it was) already took 12% to account for pensions

Free movement across departments, without requiring bonuses/promotions.
Get rid of a prescribed amount of sick days, what idiot ever agreed to this?
People on sick notes have to have their sickness verified by a doctor that works for the public sector. (we knew someone who had a sick note that they could only work 3 days a week, and worked another job every Monday and Wednesday, while on full public sector pay).

There is free movement across Civil service Departments if that's what you are talking about

the person you know should have been reported then....if they have a medical certificate from a Doc saying they can only work 3 days, how can an organisation contradict

Reduce the barrier for entry to permanent public sector jobs (teaching especially), this isn't a club for those who have made it, but a public service, that requires new blood.

what barrier to entry?

and most of all:

For the HSE, take 66% of the pen pushers (the amount extra we have over other well run health services such as in France, and the amount that should have been fired when they created the HSE except for Bertie's interference), take them to the killing floor of a slaughter house, slice them up and reconstitute their bits as doctors and nurses (who actually, you know, heal sick people and children).

HSE refor is definitely the milestone around the public sector at present and urgently needs seeing to

irish_bob

ceret wrote: »

Not really. if you're on €50k then you're going to paying more then €10k per year in tax. So the gov gets €10k less tax, and has to pay €10k more benefits, means it's costing the state €20k if that person is fired and goes onto the dole.

your looking at it from the wrong angle , the tax paid by the public servant is merley tax that is being moved on seeing that public sector wages are paid from taxes which the private sector paid in the 1st place , fireing a surplus to requirement public servant on 50 k a year and paying them 11 k a year in dole is a significant saving for the excehequer

irish_bob

Aviator55 wrote: »

You really have to be cynical.
Public servants were paid 17% more than their private sector equivalents even before the various benchmarking rip-offs, and that is ignoring their lavish pensions and total job security.
Productivity has always been desperate.
The fact that Guards, army and teachers retire in their early fifties to look forward to 40 years of ever increasing pensions is a disgrace.
If the government do not take this opportunity for total reform, making the public service professional and equalizing pay with the real economy, it deserves to be thrown out.

the goverment are too gutless to make the real hard descisions but a surprisingly large minority of the population have a vested interest in seeing public sector wages in this country remaining the highest in europe , while most people in this country dont work in the public sector , it being such a small place , almost everyone has an son , daughter , aunt or uncle who does and if thier is one thing us irish like , its keeping money in the family , we are not a people who think of the greater good or the national interest , most of us are fianna failers at heart

ixoy

A proper reform of PMDS please. It annoys me no end to see a hard-working CS colleague get the same raise as the lazy Wiki-reading idiot near him. It'll eventually mean that some of those hard workers mightn't bother as much because there's no real incentive to.
Then kick out the under-performers and apply a bell-curve model. It's not perfect but it's better than a system which sees nearly everyone rewarded with a pay rise.

spank_inferno

When this long awaited report is finally published I reckon the government will take a long time before they decide what they want to implement.

I fear they wont implement much at all.

Despite what Cowen & Co tell us, actual hard decision making is like Kryptonite to them and they avoid it if at all possible.

Its a shame (and clever on the governments part) that this review board didnt give them a mandate to review public sector pay and entitlements.

Spudmonkey

spank_inferno wrote: »

Its a shame (and clever on the governments part) that this review board didnt give them a mandate to review public sector pay and entitlements.

How do you mean? Wages aren't on the table?

ixoy

Prepare for lots of strikes - Galway Council staff of 400 are protesting about the layouff of 15 members URL="http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0630/galway.html"]link[/URL.

Imagine how 400,000 people are going to react over massive upheavals despite not offering suggestions on how to cut $5bn from public spending (other than their offerings of "We didn't cause this, the private sector did" and the favourite "We never saw the Celtic Tiger").

BroomBurner

Hopefully there won't be strikes, but as with anyone in the world, if your job is threatened, you act. I'm just not sure if striking is thebest possible way forward for the public sector.

As for An Bord Snip Nua, there is a general fear about that some people far, far away will make hasty decisions that will not only lead to some people losing their jobs (I can't say for certain that I'm safe, for instance), but will have a bad knock-on effect for members of the public not employed by the public sector. Sure look at the HSE for this. Instead of tackling areas where there is double-jobbing, they instead decide to save money by cutting healthcare provision, in particular for children.

Whatever happens, I have a bad feeling that it will end up not being the most efficient means of saving money, and certainly the end result will have a much more negative effect on people that avail of the services offered. That includes members of the public sector, as we all know and can appreciate, that they are members of the public also.

ixoy

BroomBurner wrote: »

Hopefully there won't be strikes, but as with anyone in the world, if your job is threatened, you act. I'm just not sure if striking is thebest possible way forward for the public sector.

Striking won't win them any support and it's not just because a public sector strike will affect the public more than a private one. It'd be because the figures of 50k vs 40k average wages and others will work against them (regardless of the fact that we'd need more detailed breakdowns for a fairer comparison).

As for An Bord Snip Nua, there is a general fear about that some people far, far away will make hasty decisions that will not only lead to some people losing their jobs (I can't say for certain that I'm safe, for instance), but will have a bad knock-on effect for members of the public not employed by the public sector.

I'd agree. There will be a butcher's approach taken because there's really no way to perform a surgical one. Departments would be wiped out with good and bad staff and proper reform will not happen - it should have years ago but in "the good times" nobody actively sought it

I'd be also quite worried that these recommendations will affect me quite adversely - as I work with, but not for, the government and I could be seen as being too expensive. Removing private contractors might cut out an immediate expense (and certainly appease unions) but it could just result in the work they were doing suddenly stopping because the skillsets were never put in place over the years on the public side.