Bord Snip to present findings

BroomBurner

ixoy wrote: »

Striking won't win them any support and it's not just because a public sector strike will affect the public more than a private one. It'd be because the figures of 50k vs 40k average wages and others will work against them (regardless of the fact that we'd need more detailed breakdowns for a fairer comparison).


I'd agree. There will be a butcher's approach taken because there's really no way to perform a surgical one. Departments would be wiped out with good and bad staff and proper reform will not happen - it should have years ago but in "the good times" nobody actively sought it

I'd be also quite worried that these recommendations will affect me quite adversely - as I work with, but not for, the government and I could be seen as being too expensive. Removing private contractors might cut out an immediate expense (and certainly appease unions) but it could just result in the work they were doing suddenly stopping because the skillsets were never put in place over the years on the public side.

Yeah, using averages for wages across the public sector is very misleading. Someone on €26K doesn't want to be lumped in with those earning €40k. I also think that there is a perception that people on those wages don't actually deserve them. That's the main point for me. In the privcate sector, if you get a payrise, it's because you're better than good. In the public sector, if you're there long enough, you'll be on higher pay. Some people, however, do actually deserve their wage and are extremely hard-working. It's just that they can't stand out. There is no way to determine the hard workers from the poor workers.

I agree completely with your previous point on reforming PMDS, it's a bit of a joke currently. They should also only award payrises to those that deserve it, i.e. a 4 or 5, or some other sort of grading. I have no idea why this wasn't implemented when PMDS came in. Well, I have one or two ideas why.

My fingers are crossed for you Ioxy, it's not a very secure time for anyone, public or private.

Firetrap

The big danger is that younger staff will get axed. Easier lose them (smaller redundancy payments) than get rid of people who are there for years and coasting their way to retirement. There's no effective way at present to weed out the good from the bad.

irish_bob

ixoy wrote: »

A proper reform of PMDS please. It annoys me no end to see a hard-working CS colleague get the same raise as the lazy Wiki-reading idiot near him. It'll eventually mean that some of those hard workers mightn't bother as much because there's no real incentive to.
Then kick out the under-performers and apply a bell-curve model. It's not perfect but it's better than a system which sees nearly everyone rewarded with a pay rise.

well its nice to know that thier are civil servants who despise seeing thier slacker colleagues being rewarded equally to them but at the same time its clear enough of theese concerned citizens are biting thier lips and saying nothing about it to thier unions , otherwise we would see change , its only an issue among the very few

irish_bob

Firetrap wrote: »

The big danger is that younger staff will get axed. Easier lose them (smaller redundancy payments) than get rid of people who are there for years and coasting their way to retirement. There's no effective way at present to weed out the good from the bad.

thier is but thier isnt the political will to do so

we are in a serious crisis in this country , public sector reform is the key issue , the only way it can be dealt with is by voting fine gael at the next election and not voting labour who will do nothing on public sector reform , fianna fail have set out thier stall for the next election , cowen is hitching his wagon to social partnership and clearly believes that fianna fails only hope of staying in power is by continuing to spare the sacred cows that are the public sector , the rest of us will be bled dry in order for fianna fail to stay alive

BroomBurner

Irish_bob, you're nothing if not dramatic!

Sure who said Fine Gael are gonna do a better job at public reform than any other party? All we've heard from them is "we'll axe 10,000 public sector jobs", then "we'll axe 5,000 public sector jobs". They've yet to say how, or from where. Even the figures they give is so specific. Do they know that the public sector is overstaffed by exactly 5,000 people? You just can't bandy about ridiculous numbers like that without more concrete plans and facts, which take time.

fly_agaric

irish_bob wrote: »

well its nice to know that thier are civil servants who despise seeing thier slacker colleagues being rewarded equally to them but at the same time its clear enough of theese concerned citizens are biting thier lips and saying nothing about it to thier unions , otherwise we would see change , its only an issue among the very few

whereas irish bob would, were he to be blessed with a job (and "gold-plated" pension - don't forget that) as a cs/ps worker- bee, raise 7 shades of holy hell with both unions and management to see the slackers rooted out (or at least penalised)? Somehow I doubt it...

Alot of them are women taking very best advanage of the public sector's, em, enlightened attitudes to the burdens of motherhood comparerd to the "real world" but somehow that gets left out of most (edit - all!) media commentry on "inefficiencies". It might make the commentators on these issues sound a bit nasty and crass if they were to mention it I suppose.;)

Riskymove

ixoy wrote: »

Prepare for lots of strikes - Galway Council staff of 400 are protesting about the layouff of 15 members URL="http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0630/galway.html"]link[/URL.

Imagine how 400,000 people are going to react over massive upheavals despite not offering suggestions on how to cut $5bn from public spending (other than their offerings of "We didn't cause this, the private sector did" and the favourite "We never saw the Celtic Tiger").

there is currently a moratorium on recruitment and promotions and non-filling of vacancies in the Public service, pension levy introduced

strikes...none

there will always be local disputes like the item linked above

and ICTU have been promoting their plan for recovery for sometime, see http://www.ictu.ie/publications/fulllist/there_is_a_better_fairer_waydoc/

irish_bob

BroomBurner wrote: »

Irish_bob, you're nothing if not dramatic!

Sure who said Fine Gael are gonna do a better job at public reform than any other party? All we've heard from them is "we'll axe 10,000 public sector jobs", then "we'll axe 5,000 public sector jobs". They've yet to say how, or from where. Even the figures they give is so specific. Do they know that the public sector is overstaffed by exactly 5,000 people? You just can't bandy about ridiculous numbers like that without more concrete plans and facts, which take time.

i never mentioned specific figures but lets focus on some in one area to start , agriculture , i was born on a farm , my brother is a full time farmer and i often help out on the home farm , more often lately as i lost my own job

thier are 6000 civil servants in the dept of ag and thier are 100,000 full time farmers in this country , thats one civil servant for every 16 farmers , anyone who has ever been inside a dept of ag office will know how little goes on there , day begins officially at 9.30 but dont expect an answer untill at least 9.45 . tea breaks are 11 to 11.15 but you can more or less rule out finding anyone from 10.45 am to 11.30 am , lunch time is officially 12.30 to 2pm but the place is a ghostown till around 2.10 , day ends at 4.30 pm

its a slackers paradise , they could easily reduce numbers by a third as most of the beauracracy involves duplication of sorts

zootroid

The one thing that bothers me is that the government had to hire externally to tell them where they might make some savings in running the country. Each minister should be able to identify where money is being wasted within his/her own department. The fact that they hired a small group of people to work for a few months to tell them that there are potential savings to the tune of 5 billion (if the reports are to be believed) is extremely worrying. Just another example of inept politicians not being able to run their own departments.

ynotdu

ONLY in Ireland could a body set up to figure out what cuts there should be have the word SNIP in it:D

The English will laugh at it.

The Germans will say "That is very logical":D

the French will be too busy with riots and their lovers to care:D

Riskymove

zootroid wrote: »

The one thing that bothers me is that the government had to hire externally to tell them where they might make some savings in running the country. Each minister should be able to identify where money is being wasted within his/her own department. The fact that they hired a small group of people to work for a few months to tell them that there are potential savings to the tune of 5 billion (if the reports are to be believed) is extremely worrying. Just another example of inept politicians not being able to run their own departments.

the idea was to get objectivity, individual organisations/departments are unlikely to decide that they should stop services or be abolished

mickman

two thirds of govt expenditure is on social welfare and public sector pay.

cut 30% of the public sector jobs, cut remaining salaries by 10%. halve the dole. problem solved

get massive loan from europe to pay the public sector redundancies. we will be much better off in the long run

gurramok

zootroid wrote: »

The one thing that bothers me is that the government had to hire externally to tell them where they might make some savings in running the country. Each minister should be able to identify where money is being wasted within his/her own department. The fact that they hired a small group of people to work for a few months to tell them that there are potential savings to the tune of 5 billion (if the reports are to be believed) is extremely worrying. Just another example of inept politicians not being able to run their own departments.

They only found €5bn. Cowen/Lenihan said they had a 5yr plan to cut back €3bn-€4bn a year per year of that 5yr plan.

Where will the cuts come from for the remaining 4 years?

Riskymove

gurramok wrote: »

They only found €5bn. Cowen/Lenihan said they had a 5yr plan to cut back €3bn-€4bn a year per year of that 5yr plan.

Where will the cuts come from for the remaining 4 years?

but I think that started with items last year and up to present

like the pension levy, moratorium on promotions and recruitment, early retirement and so on

that was all supposed to save a certain amount per year

Fat_Fingers

gurramok wrote: »

They only found €5bn. Cowen/Lenihan said they had a 5yr plan to cut back €3bn-€4bn a year per year of that 5yr plan.

Where will the cuts come from for the remaining 4 years?

Property tax will go up every year, Bin collection tax up, water charges up, Insurance levy on pensions will go from current 1% to 2% , then 3%. There will be land tax for everyone even apartment owners. Then you can think of new tax.. levy on flat roof, levy on education, tax on having children/ tax on not having children. Levies on EVERYTHING. We have now levies on income, pensions, savings... expect levies on city or village you live as in Location levy, separate to property tax and land tax that your house is sitting on.. levy on car owners, levy on bicycles....

Riskymove

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Property tax will go up every year, Bin collection tax up, water charges up, Insurance levy on pensions will go from current 1% to 2% , then 3%. There will be land tax for everyone even apartment owners. Then you can think of new tax.. levy on flat roof, levy on education, tax on having children/ tax on not having children. Levies on EVERYTHING. We have now levies on income, pensions, savings... expect levies on city or village you live as in Location levy, separate to property tax and land tax that your house is sitting on.. levy on car owners, levy on bicycles....

you are talking about the taxing side of the equation, he was asking about cuts

2 different things

Fat_Fingers

Yes you are correct. my bad.

gurramok

So is Bord Snip going to report every year for 4 years to 'help' the govt target those €3bn-€4bn cuts per year in the big 5yr plan?

jimmmy

Aviator55 wrote: »

You really have to be cynical.
Public servants were paid 17% more than their private sector equivalents even before the various benchmarking rip-offs, and that is ignoring their lavish pensions and total job security.
Productivity has always been desperate.
The fact that Guards, army and teachers retire in their early fifties to look forward to 40 years of ever increasing pensions is a disgrace.

Generally speaking its not a disgrace if you are a public servant. I only know a few public servants who admit they are well overpaid. Others will not comment on it, but no doubt they are embarassed, being paid nearly double what their counterparts in N. Ireland are being paid.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

Generally speaking its not a disgrace if you are a public servant. I only know a few public servants who admit they are well overpaid. Others will not comment on it, but no doubt they are embarassed, being paid nearly double what their counterparts in N. Ireland are being paid.

as a commentator once said about us irish , while we may have been puritanical about sex at one time , we were never puritanical about money , i seriously doubt nurses , garda , teachers or those in the civil service are embarrased about being the highest paid public sector workers in europe and close to twice as well paid as those in the uk

jimmycrackcorm

One easy option to implement is to insist that until the situation that any public servants who typically do overtime have to do a certain percentage of it basically as part of normal working hours. i.e. get rid of the overtime bill for the like of the Gardai, nurses etc without cutting back on services.

In the national interest of course. At least it could be related to the percentage difference with the reduced private sector pay.