So did the greens destroy the Irish car industry ?

Shazforgrub

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

One point that everyone seems to be missing. The HUGE amount of second hand cars for sale at the side of the road. the market is flooded, why on earth would you buy a new car when there is such great value in second hand cars at the moment? I bought a 08 astra back in august of last year and regret it so bloody much

smash

No they were not a primary cause

maidhc wrote: »

Well all the greens did was make cars cheaper.

The fact no one has money or can get loans is a different matter entirely.

No.... they made SOME cares cheap and a lot of cars more expensive!

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Don't agree Steve06.

There is no way this country could have continued purchasing the amount of new cars as it had been along side the massive importation of UK vehicles, recession or no recession. A downturn was on the cards regardless it was only a matter of time.

But I do conceed that new VRT & Tax rates along with the recession compounded this situation far more rapidly. Remember the novelty factor of owing a new car was growing thin and very used car imported automatically removed a punter from the forecourts of dealerships.

I know it wasn't sustainable buying new but even the 2nd hand market collapsed because of the new systems brought in.

maidhc

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

steve06 wrote: »

No.... they made SOME cares cheap and a lot of cars more expensive!

Yeah, but the stuff most people buy, e.g. Golfs, Focuses, Meganes all got cheaper. Even the E class and 520d got far cheaper to buy and run.

maidhc

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

steve06 wrote: »

I know it wasn't sustainable buying new but even the 2nd hand market collapsed because of the new systems brought in.

No, it just corrected things. They were too expensive to begin with.

smash

No they were not a primary cause

maidhc wrote: »

Yeah, but the stuff most people buy, e.g. Golfs, Focuses, Meganes all got cheaper. Even the E class and 520d got far cheaper to buy and run.

Not everyone wants a diesel hatchback or executive saloon...

maidhc wrote: »

No, it just corrected things. They were too expensive to begin with.

The import market dropped as well as the cars sitting on forecourts - just look at the loss in VRT revenue - not all of the loss is due to cheaper VRT on diesel cars!

Johnboy Mac

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

steve06 wrote: »

No.... they made SOME cares cheap and a lot of cars more expensive!


I know it wasn't sustainable buying new but even the 2nd hand market collapsed because of the new systems brought in.

Used market was surely affected by used imports, 65,000 last year if I recall correctly. Wonder why people imported so many cars and had the money to do so? I doubt they were supported by bank loans?

Atomic Pineapple

No they were not a primary cause

You can longer get a new Rx8 or Impreza STI in Ireland thanks to the new Tax and VRT rates brought in by the Greens so they've certainly damaged the car market.

In 10 years time if anyone wants a powerful car they'll be forced to pay 2k tax a year or get a car thats 10+ years old. Unless powerful cars become much more economical in the meantime.

granted there are many factors that led to the industry crisis but the greens have made it worse in my opinion

Tragedy

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

draffodx wrote: »

You can longer get a new Rx8 or Impreza STI in Ireland thanks to the new Tax and VRT rates brought in by the Greens so they've certainly damaged the car market.

In 10 years time if anyone wants a powerful car they'll be forced to pay 2k tax a year or get a car thats 10+ years old. Unless powerful cars become much more economical in the meantime.

granted there are many factors that led to the industry crisis but the greens have made it worse in my opinion

Diesel sports cars

Bee

sparklepants wrote: »

I heard the interview on the radio yesterday. Boyle was shockingly bad, Cullen wiped the floor with him, which genuinely surprised me. I don't know why Boyle was on the show in the first place, since he's not an elected representative. He got his senate seat from Bertie, and was given the two fingers by the Munster electorate in the European elections.

But no, the Greens didn't destroy the Irish car "industry" - but they're certainly in the process of destroying themselves.

They contributed more than anything to destroying the Motor trade because the Greens are hypocritical idiots.

John Gormless of the 40 watt lght bulb campaign once made a speech and hoodwinked the tree hugger's into supporting him. Here is a small piece from his "Planet Bertie" speech and you can see how much of a hypocrite he is by his own words.

"On Planet Bertie there's a strange cult called Fianna Fáil, a type of religion without vision or values; and every year in August they go on their annual pilgrimage to one of their sacred sites, the tent at the Galway races, where they pay homage to their gods and the gods bestow them with gifts for doing their bidding.

Oh yes, it's a strange place Planet Bertie. So strange and so alien to our sensibilities, that it's a planet that we Greens would like to avoid. For let there be no doubt, we want Fianna Fáil and the PDs out of Government.

The Green Party wants high standards in high places; not because we are particularly virtuous, but because strong ethical standards improve the quality of our democracy. We do it because we recognise that there are now three Governments in this country: the permanent Government, which is the civil service; the present Government, if you can call it that, consisting of the PDs and Fianna Fáil; and the real Government which are the gods in the Ballybrit tent. These people have inordinate influence on how our country is governed.

Mr Benevolent

What I don't understand is why the government went with this system in the first place. Surely it was obvious that if taxes are based on emissions then the more fuel efficient the car is, the less tax the coffers get. Logically cars will become more efficient, resulting in less tax being paid, both in VRT and road.

What were they thinking? Maybe it just looked neat and tidy. A very shrewd move by BMW.

galwaytt

No they were not a primary cause

Confab wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the government went with this system in the first place. Surely it was obvious that if taxes are based on emissions then the more fuel efficient the car is, the less tax the coffers get. Logically cars will become more efficient, resulting in less tax being paid, both in VRT and road.

What were they thinking? Maybe it just looked neat and tidy. A very shrewd move by BMW.

...ah well, you see, there you go. You're mixing the word 'government' with the words 'logic, thinking' etc.

A fatal, and oft overlooked, flaw, that.........:rolleyes:

Tipsy Mac

There should be incentives to keep large luxury cars which are already in the country on the road rather than scrapped because road tax is €1500+. Far less polluting to drive one of these cars around for a couple of years than to build a less polluting car from scratch. A flat €500 road tax for 5 year old cars over 2 litre would keep them running.

Zonda999

Confab wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the government went with this system in the first place. Surely it was obvious that if taxes are based on emissions then the more fuel efficient the car is, the less tax the coffers get. Logically cars will become more efficient, resulting in less tax being paid, both in VRT and road.

What were they thinking? Maybe it just looked neat and tidy. A very shrewd move by BMW.

Yes, that will happen and undeniably is already happening. You know thats happening when one can tax a Merc E class, a 5 series Bmw or an Audi A6 for 156€. My guess is that before too long, they'll tighten up the bands considerably and you'll be charged well over 200€ even if you're car emits less than 120g CO2/KM

Del2005

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

draffodx wrote: »

You can longer get a new Rx8 or Impreza STI in Ireland thanks to the new Tax and VRT rates brought in by the Greens so they've certainly damaged the car market.

In 10 years time if anyone wants a powerful car they'll be forced to pay 2k tax a year or get a car thats 10+ years old. Unless powerful cars become much more economical in the meantime.

granted there are many factors that led to the industry crisis but the greens have made it worse in my opinion

Subaru and Mazda sales have gone up since the new rates came in, so they are doing OK. The 2 cars you've listed above, while lovely cars, where always a niche market and the fact that they now cost €2k to tax doesn't explain why all car sales have dropped 65%.

The EU/USA are doing all they can to kill off performance cars, by constantly raising the fuel efficency goals and reducing noxious gases output, and the manufactures are responding to this by making cars use less fuel. So it's not just the Irish greens that caused this.

The Irish where always forced to buy small engined cars due to the old tax rates, at least now we can buy cars with the engines they where designed for and not underpowered 1.6l's.

robtri

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

here's a couple of figures for you....
in July 2008 16,386 cars where sold.... ( this is when the new tax bits came in) compared to 13,150 in July 07:eek::eek: yep thats an increase of 24.61%
mmmmmm yeah that introduction really fecked the car sales......:rolleyes:

Now I will admit, that the confusion over the new tax system did screw up sales for the first 6 months of the year.....
enough so that at the end of July 08 that new car sales for the first 7 months where down 15%.... yep just 15%

( all figures supplied by our favourite people at SIMI)

so the green party and there lovely tax system dis not the primary reason that car sales are down a massive 68%......

Seth Brundle

have a read of these if you believe that Gormless and his party are responsible
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8082583.stm
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/05/autos/global_auto_sales.reut/index.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/business/worldbusiness/25toyota.html
http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/06/11/global-sales-may-2009-bmw-audi-mercedes-benz/#more-15530

Padraig Mor

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

maidhc wrote: »

Yeah, but the stuff most people buy, e.g. Golfs, Focuses, Meganes all got cheaper. Even the E class and 520d got far cheaper to buy and run.

Entry level Golfs, Focuses and Meganes would all have risen in price by about €400 due to VRT changes. Little change in E Class diesels, with the E200K petrol (most popular model in Ireland?) shooting up in price.

Again, while BMWs grabbed the headlines, very few cars - despite popular perception - actually dropped significantly in price due to VRT. Trade posters here have said that sub-6k stuff is 'flying'. The simple fact is that, due to economic concerns, very few people are willing to spend large sums of money on new or nearly new cars. Believe me I know - look at my sig!

astrofool

The system was needed for years, it's just a pity it only came in after the boom, we could have had one of the newest and least polluting fleet of cars in the world, but instead we have a bunch of under powered, Irish poverty spec cars (e.g. Avensis 1.6).

The greens, while meaning well, went bumbling into the changeover, not making anything clear to anyone, and also made it far cheaper to import from the UK. This is where they caused the damage, by sticking to their typical flighty policies, without having a clue about implementing them. Look at the car space tax (this still hasn't been defined), the mess that is the bike to work scheme, and their €4bn to promote cycling, while the buses get cut. They will be destroyed at the next election, as they simply can't govern.

But to blame them for the car industry mess in it's entirity? That's mostly SIMI's fault, selling cars at overinflated prices, then wondering why people can't trade up when they have to drop the prices of new cars (banks won't give them credit, as their house is no longer an ATM).

Anyway, I'd say the car industry's problems are about 20% the Green's fault, with the rest being the industry's own fault.

smash

No they were not a primary cause

astrofool wrote: »

The system was needed for years, it's just a pity it only came in after the boom, we could have had one of the newest and least polluting fleet of cars in the world, but instead we have a bunch of under powered, Irish poverty spec cars (e.g. Avensis 1.6).

The system wasn't needed at all for road tax - CC based worked just fine but paying 2k a year on certain 1.8ltr petrol cars when doing 5k a year is a joke when there are people in 2.5ltr diesels doing 100k a year and paying less than 200 in road tax!

Who's doing more damage to the environment there do you think?

astrofool

steve06 wrote: »

The system wasn't needed at all for road tax - CC based worked just fine but paying 2k a year on certain 1.8ltr petrol cars when doing 5k a year is a joke when there are people in 2.5ltr diesels doing 100k a year and paying less than 200 in road tax!

Who's doing more damage to the environment there do you think?

What about the guy doing 100k in a 1.8ltr? Why would he pay less than the 2.5ltr diesel doing 100k as well, when he the 1.8 will pollute more?

Ideally the tax would be on petrol itself. The CC based system was a ridiculous way of doing it.

smash

No they were not a primary cause

astrofool wrote: »

Ideally the tax would be on petrol itself. The CC based system was a ridiculous way of doing it.

Well we can agree on that anyway. But it should be put on fuel, not just petrol!

Saab Ed

Im not gonna say that the Greens destroyed the Irish motor indusrty on their own but their lack of knowledge about how the industry works along with their ineptitude ( just like all Irish political parties ) at running a country and having no finger on the pulse as to what was going on day to day did help hammer the final nail in. A vision of the planet 50 years from now is no good to any of us paying for houses today.

Just a little extra fact that nobody has seemed to have remembered. A Co based tax system is all well and good but has everybody forgotten that its the carsonegenic content of diesel that hangs in the air and causing cancer thats going to be a much bigger problem short term for us. And within 10 years everybody in the country will be driving a diesel car. Good luck anybody with an asthmatic child. Gormless better be providing plenty of funding for Crumlin hospital. Oh and good luck to us all being taxed out of our diesel cars then.:mad:

mumblin deaf ro

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Would I be right in thinking that one consequence of the recent boom in car sales is that the average age of cars on the road is now younger than it was before, and so many people are under no pressure to change cars?

PS: I registered my 'new' 1987 car recently so it gets the highest number for that year - just over 39,000. As the guy fixing my reg plates said - 'now, that was a recession'.

ismynametoolong

No they were not a primary cause

Confab wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the government went with this system in the first place. Surely it was obvious that if taxes are based on emissions then the more fuel efficient the car is, the less tax the coffers get. Logically cars will become more efficient, resulting in less tax being paid, both in VRT and road.

What were they thinking? Maybe it just looked neat and tidy. A very shrewd move by BMW.

The truth of the matter is that the introduction of a C02 based tax system had always been on the cards and the relevant departments and the motor industry had been in discussions for 2 to 3 years prior . What we got was the decision of two individuals Cowen & Bertie to hold onto to power & Gormless and Boyle ( The unelected member of government ) to get a little bit of power.There was nobody more shocked than the revenue and dept of Finance when they realised what these two idiots Cowen and Ahern had agreed to and with no costings or departmental advise , remember this was agreed over a weekend and simply wiped out 2 to 3 yrs of previous discussions and negotiations where at all times the industry were told that any introduction of a CO2 tax must be revenue neutral.

McSpud

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Was the new VRT system introduced by the Department of Environment or Finance. While I am sure the Greens were fully on board with this you can't introduce something like this wihtout Dept of Finance approval & oversight. Seems like FF are using Greens as the new PD scapegoat. Politics over.

The purchase of new cars does not add to Irish CO2 numbers as we import all out cars. We only take the hit for the fuel used.

smash

No they were not a primary cause

Saab Ed wrote: »

within 10 years everybody in the country will be driving a diesel car.

No, in 10 years the tax on petrol cars will be 5k and 4k for diesels because they're not electric so they're killing the planet too! :rolleyes:

Darragh29

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

I think a lot of dealers have contributed to their own demise, having taken their eye off their core business in recent years, many dealers completely ignored the profitability of their aftersales operations, just looking at new car sales. Now that new car sales have gone off a cliff, they have discovered that while they were flying in helicopters to race meetings and property investment meetings up and down the country, their aftersales operations were losing money all over the place but that this was being hidden by an excessively high volume of new car sales. Now there are no cars being sold and all of a sudden, they are in the sh*ts with a loss making aftersales operation, lno cars selling and in a lot of cases, a huge monthly outlay for a newly mortgaged glass showroom.

You can't blame the Green Party for any of that in my opinion. Funnily enough, Bill Cullen, the man who blames the Green Party for the state of the industry is a classic example of a man taking his eye off the ball when it comes to running your core business, starting up a rediculous TV show when all his outlets were starting to really struggle.

Johnboy Mac

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think a lot of dealers have contributed to their own demise, having taken their eye off their core business in recent years, many dealers completely ignored the profitability of their aftersales operations, just looking at new car sales. Now that new car sales have gone off a cliff, they have discovered that while they were flying in helicopters to race meetings and property investment meetings up and down the country, their aftersales operations were losing money all over the place but that this was being hidden by an excessively high volume of new car sales. Now there are no cars being sold and all of a sudden, they are in the sh*ts with a loss making aftersales operation, lno cars selling and in a lot of cases, a huge monthly outlay for a newly mortgaged glass showroom.

You can't blame the Green Party for any of that in my opinion. Funnily enough, Bill Cullen, the man who blames the Green Party for the state of the industry is a classic example of a man taking his eye off the ball when it comes to running your core business, starting up a rediculous TV show when all his outlets were starting to really struggle.

Could not agree more with you, actually I said something similar in thread #27.

Darragh29

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

steve06 wrote: »

No, in 10 years the tax on petrol cars will be 5k and 4k for diesels because they're not electric so they're killing the planet too! :rolleyes:

Very true, petrol & diesel cars will be a dying bread in 10 years time I reckon and rightly so.

I can't understand how come so many dealers deluded themselves that new vehicle sales figures of 100-200 units a month was something that was sustainable. Who in all that is holy did they think was going to buy all these new cars?!?!? Whatever about over abmitious dealer personalities, the banks should also be made answer for lending the money to fund this insane over-development.

smash

No they were not a primary cause

Darragh29 wrote: »

Very true, petrol & diesel cars will be a dying bread in 10 years time I reckon and rightly so.

I can't understand how come so many dealers deluded themselves that new vehicle sales figures of 100-200 units a month was something that was sustainable. Who in all that is holy did they think was going to buy all these new cars?!?!? Whatever about over abmitious dealer personalities, the banks should also be made answer for lending the money to fund this insane over-development.

And what about the distributors who demanded that their dealers pump excessive money into their showroom?

Darragh29

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

steve06 wrote: »

And what about the distributors who demanded that their dealers pump excessive money into their showroom?

Grand, who's paying??? That's all I'd be asking! I'd say a lot of them didn't need much encouragement. Many of them became multifranchise operations after running a successful single franchise operation for many years and nobody forced that upon them.

bernardo mac

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Quite so,D.29.And from my experience of dealing with them since 1976,their cosy profits and Gov. tax made me and many wary of dealers.I did find a genuine one eventually, but learned the expensive way.As for Bill Cullen:Nice showroom,Not so Nice price!

Darragh29

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

A good few of them I know have made millions alone because going back years, they (or their father), bought a site in the very middle of the town and had paid off the mortgage many years ago. Then in recent years the same site was worth millions so they sold the site in the centre of the town for apartments, built a new bigger purpose built unit on a greenfield site near a retail park a bit out of town and could lodge a few million into the bank after the transaction.

biko

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

The motor industry was a big inflated balloon full of big inflated salesmen fuelled by the celtic tiger. Once the tiger went it was only a matter of time before luxury items, such at latest model BMW and Audi, went with it.

Darragh29

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Magnus wrote: »

The motor industry was a big inflated balloon full of big inflated salesmen fuelled by the celtic tiger. Once the tiger went it was only a matter of time before luxury items, such at latest model BMW and Audi, went with it.

I was over in France last week and everywhere I looked, there were Renault 5 and Peugeot 106 cars EVERYWHERE!!! The funny thing was that the same people who were driving the Renault 5, had a house 5 minutes from the beaches of Normandy or Brittany, so they were not poor. It was rare to see a BM or a Merc on the roads. I asked a lad I know, who is from France but has been working in Ireland for the last 7 years, how come these cars I haven't seen in years back in Ireland, were absolutely everywhere in France!

He said French people don't have to show off to their neighbours or don't have delicate ego's, be basically said they were not so insecure where they had to buy something because their neighbour had one, so they buy a car to get them from A to B and they don't give a sh*t what their neighbours drive.

It's the national insecurity factor we suffer from I think that has the industry in a mess and has largely contributed to the wider economic mess we are now looking at. If we hadn't all gone mad buying overpriced cars, the bubble might not have been blown up so big...

smash

No they were not a primary cause

Darragh29 wrote: »

He said French people don't have to show off to their neighbours or don't have delicate ego's, be basically said they were not so insecure where they had to buy something because their neighbour had one, so they buy a car to get them from A to B and they don't give a sh*t what their neighbours drive.

I don't agree... most people I know buy cars they like, not cars that their neighbours have - that's pathetic!

cars are a lot more to a lot of people than just an a-b device but unfortunately the greens don't see that and think that everyone should drive micro electric cars to save the baby seals!

If I went out tomorrow and bought a Lamborghini, it's because they're a car I love - not because I'm trying to show that I'm better than my neighbour.

That attitude is a joke, and it's arrogant for your French friend to say that to you because it's basically saying he's better than us, because he doesn't have to "show off" :mad:

robtri

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

steve06 wrote: »

I don't agree... most people I know buy cars they like, not cars that their neighbours have - that's pathetic!

cars are a lot more to a lot of people than just an a-b device but unfortunately the greens don't see that and think that everyone should drive micro electric cars to save the baby seals!

If I went out tomorrow and bought a Lamborghini, it's because they're a car I love - not because I'm trying to show that I'm better than my neighbour.

That attitude is a joke, and it's arrogant for your French friend to say that to you because it's basically saying he's better than us, because he doesn't have to "show off" :mad:

Absolutely agree.............

j2dab

No they were not a primary cause

They brought in the €2,000 tax on big engined nice cars, this would have done a lot of damage to people thinking of buying decent expensive cars.

thebman

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

I think people in France buy mostly Peugeots and Renaults because those are French brands.

There are few luxury French cars.

There are no Irish manufacturers so people buy what they want.

I don't know anyone that considered their neighbours car before buying theirs. Brother bought a Lotus Elise a while ago because he had always wanted a sports car and had been obsessed with Elise's for years.

I don't think many people buy to impress the neighbours. Maybe SUV owners or something. A lot of those people worked in construction I guess so it made sense to buy something that could go on a construction site. The soccer mum wannabe's just wanted it for their image though.

Can't deny there are some people like that everywhere though. I don't think peoples purchasing decisions come into it that much. We should not be that naive to think we have special buying habbits over other nations. Most countries people act mostly the same. We aren't as different as we like to make out and that is another thing a lot of countries have in common is thinking they are different. Not a unique Irish trait.

sunshinediver

kbannon wrote: »

have a read of these if you believe that Gormless and his party are responsible
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8082583.stm
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/05/autos/global_auto_sales.reut/index.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/25/business/worldbusiness/25toyota.html
http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/06/11/global-sales-may-2009-bmw-audi-mercedes-benz/#more-15530

In light of the above articles i fail to understand how anyone can blame the Greens alone for this. Car dealers in Ireland had it way too good for a long long time. Now that this has stopped the whingers are out looking for someone to blame.

As regards blaming the greens even the dogs in the street know that the Greens can't do anything unless Fianna Fail approve. Why not blame them?

biko

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Darragh29 wrote: »

If we hadn't all gone mad buying overpriced cars, the bubble might not have been blown up so big...

Yeah , the keeping up with the Jones'. I bought a really nice s40 super cheap from a guy because his wife wouldn't be seen in a '97 at a particular wedding, he then went and bought a brand new car.

Or the "now that I have a bit of money, the first thing I will get is a nice big new BMW" syndrome.

Yes, the greens have had effect but I, for one?, agree with them that the amount of cars on our roads need to come down and options like cycling, trains and bus need to be made more commonplace.

Spiritoftheseventies

I would think people dont have the money they had to be splashing out on new cars. Heard some wont buy 09 reg plates given it would be insensitive in these times of recession

smash

No they were not a primary cause

Magnus wrote: »

Yes, the greens have had effect but I, for one?, agree with them that the amount of cars on our roads need to come down

Needs to come down? that's not what they've done... they're trying to force people to buy new cars which are more "eco friendly" and they'll do it again in 5 years when they try and force you to buy electric!

How is pushing a country into buying new vehicles saving the world? The effect on the environment to manufacture new cars does more damage!

Magnus wrote: »

options like cycling, trains and bus need to be made more commonplace.

yes, lets all cycle our kids to school and take 2 buses to tescos and then struggle back to the stops to get another 2 busses home and lets walk for an hour to get the train to work... the infrastructure in this country is shocking to say the least.

ART6

They contributed to the 65% decline in the Irish car industry

Darragh29 wrote: »

A good few of them I know have made millions alone because going back years, they (or their father), bought a site in the very middle of the town and had paid off the mortgage many years ago. Then in recent years the same site was worth millions so they sold the site in the centre of the town for apartments, built a new bigger purpose built unit on a greenfield site near a retail park a bit out of town and could lodge a few million into the bank after the transaction.

That's exactly what happened in Waterford, where we have our own motown on the outskirts of the city now. Over a short period all of the dealers moved out of town to flashy new showrooms on a greenfield site and built hotels and flats on their town sites. They spent big money when times were good, and like the government, didn't appear to have made any allowance for a downturn. The Greens didn't cause that.

steve06 wrote: »

yes, lets all cycle our kids to school and take 2 buses to tescos and then struggle back to the stops to get another 2 busses home and lets walk for an hour to get the train to work... the infrastructure in this country is shocking to say the least.

Or effectively non-existent? Expert planning is what it's called -- build large industrial estates on one side of town, give planning consent for the construction of major housing estates on the other side, and ensure that any public transport routes do not directly connect either. Having done that, introduce "green" routes with bus and cycle lanes, so restricting all other traffic to what is essentially a single lane the width of a baby buggy. Perhaps the strategy is to make driving to work, even when there is no alternative, take so long that it will become impossible. That, now, is a real "Green" strategy. It makes no sense but it does satisfy the rampant environmentalists who, I suspect, would have us all conducting a sustainable living in caves and hunting the odd dormouse (or better still berries and wild roots) for breakfast, using only carbon neutral cooking facilities of course.

So back on topic, no the Greens didn't destroy the motor industry, but it sure as hell wasn't for the want of trying.:(