Fair play Tesco

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

No, you haven’t – you consistently skirt around the subject.

bla bla bla, same old arguments I have heard from you before.

Thank you for illustrating my point beautifully. Although, that wasn’t so much “skirting around the subject” as it was you sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “la, la, la, la; I can’t hear you!”

sceptre

cfcj wrote: »

I have asked time and time again for you to reveal if you have any relationship with Tesco? Do you work for them or are you a representative for the company? Its a simple no or yes.

I'm going to state the obvious here cfcj but please read it very slowly anyway. If you've asked "time and time again" for the guy to answer if he has a relationship with Tesco or not and he hasn't answered, I suspect he isn't going to. Move on as if you have asked "time and time again" you're now badgering the witness when the forum rules specifically request that you address the issues instead. Assume your point, whatever it is, is made and move on.

As a corollary to the above instruction, djpbarry, you could calm it down a notch or five as well. Please do.

If the two of you can't have a reasoned discussion with one another, consider not having any discussion at all with each other. If I have to make that point again to the pair of you together, I'll bring the strong infraction hoses as well. Both of you calm down.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

Thank you for illustrating my point beautifully. Although, that wasn’t so much “skirting around the subject” as it was you sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting “la, la, la, la; I can’t hear you!”

lol, that is exactly what you are advocating to do with Tesco. I don't even know what your point is since you don't actually make one, you just deny well reported facts about Tesco and then refuse to acknowledge evidence when I had presented it to you.

Then you had the cheek to come on here and say

djpbarry wrote: »

If Tesco are such appalling employers, then how did they manage to attract so many employees? Surely if their work practices are so deplorable, their staff would have left long ago?

with unemployment rising and predicted to hit 17%. Tesco hire predominantly the vulnerable and those on social welfare programes e.g . So please don't insult these people by the total disregard for their welfare and not being able or not feeling able to challenge the situation they are in.

In response to sceptre: I agree, and I am fed up asking to be honest, though the reason I was asking was more for the fact that djpbarry is a moderator on this site and has almost forcefully delivered a defense of Tesco and slammed any point I made and on one occasion demanded to see evidence, then totally disregarded and refused to read it when I presented it, even though I had detailed in earlier posts. I did wonder if there is a conflict of interest with his role.

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

Then you had the cheek to come on here and say

djpbarry wrote:

If Tesco are such appalling employers, then how did they manage to attract so many employees? Surely if their work practices are so deplorable, their staff would have left long ago?

with unemployment rising and predicted to hit 17%.

It’s not like they hired all of their 10,000 or so employees in the last 12 to 18 months.

cfcj wrote: »

Tesco hire predominantly the vulnerable and those on social welfare programes...

What are you basing that on?

jenzz

djpbarry wrote: »

So you’re not saying that they should be required to hire Irish, you’re just pissed off that they didn’t hire Irish? Have I got that right now?

Yeah thats it.

djpbarry

jenzz wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

So you’re not saying that they should be required to hire Irish, you’re just pissed off that they didn’t hire Irish? Have I got that right now?

Yeah thats it.

Ok, so you don’t think that they should be required to hire Irish, you just think that they should hire Irish anyway? I’m not seeing a whole lot of difference between those two positions.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

It’s not like they hired all of their 10,000 or so employees in the last 12 to 18 months.
What are you basing that on?

Based on knowing people who work for Tesco and who tell me of what Tesco internal policies are. But that aside it doesn't take too much common sense to figure out that paying around the minimum wage will draw the most vulnerable sections of the society.

I know you don't wish for any negative information about Tesco to come out but I think you have shown your total disregard for ordinary decent working people in your previous statement.

thebman

So Tesco should pay more than the minimum wage for an unskilled job?

That sounds like crazy talk TBH.

Jip

cfcj wrote: »

I bet the staff in their Douglas, Cork, store

What you've failed to mention is why these staff were striking ? Do you know anything about the terms and conditions the pre-96ers were on and were being asked to move to ? There's a reason why not all staff members in all branches are striking.

cfcj wrote:

Based on knowing people who work for Tesco and who tell me of what Tesco internal policies are. But that aside it doesn't take too much common sense to figure out that paying around the minimum wage will draw the most vulnerable sections of the society.

I'm guessing you're only pretending to know what Tescos policies are as by all accounts they're well ahead of their competitors, they invest, or did invest, alot in the development of their staff. You seem to be just making random and wild things up to suit whatever points you're trying to make.

However, while they generally treat their shop staff well, when it comes to head office it's completely different. People who have worked there for years are loosing their jobs as the positions themselves will be covered by UK bases staff as part of their restructuring.

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

Based on knowing people who work for Tesco and who tell me of what Tesco internal policies are. But that aside it doesn't take too much common sense to figure out that paying around the minimum wage will draw the most vulnerable sections of the society.

Well, first of all, I doubt that all of Tesco’s employees are earning no more than the minimum wage. In fact, based on the fact that staff at Tesco in Douglas are prepared to strike to hang onto their existing contracts, that suggests that they obviously have a lot to lose, doesn’t it? So maybe their terms of employment aren’t all that bad?

Secondly, anyone who works for the minimum wage is “vulnerable”? I doubt I’m the only person reading this thread who has worked for the minimum wage in the past, but I certainly wouldn’t have considered myself “vulnerable” at the time.

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but are you suggesting that because some of Tesco’s employees earn no more than the minimum wage (I don’t know if this is the case, by the way, but we’ll assume so for argument’s sake), they are therefore “trapped” in their jobs (and have been for some time, apparently) as they are too “vulnerable” to risk leaving and trying to find a job elsewhere? Therefore, they are forced to put up with any crap that Tesco imposes on them? If so, couldn’t we extend that logic to all employers who pay minimum wage? It seems to suggest that you feel that paying minimum wage is some form of exploitation?

sceptre

cfcj wrote: »

In response to sceptre: I agree, and I am fed up asking to be honest, though the reason I was asking was more for the fact that djpbarry is a moderator on this site and has almost forcefully delivered a defense of Tesco and slammed any point I made and on one occasion demanded to see evidence, then totally disregarded and refused to read it when I presented it, even though I had detailed in earlier posts. I did wonder if there is a conflict of interest with his role.

The fact that the guy moderates the Green Issues forum is irrelevant on the Politics board to him, you and me. I ignore who moderates what when making any moderation calls.

If you have a problem with posts made by another member, use the report button rather than making a list of grievances on-thread. Like everyone else does.

This post by me doesn't invite a response as it's a moderation post (as was the one above) - take any response to PM with me (where you'll get the same view repeated once) or to the Help Desk (where you'll get the same view repeated twice). Any responses on this thread from you should be limited to what the thread is about, not wasting my time and everyone else's by discussing a moderation decision, regardless of agreement or dissention. Back on topic or get off the boat.

dbready

cfcj wrote: »

I bet the staff in their Douglas, Cork, store or indeed the staff working for suppliers in Bangladesh, South Korea or Thailand that wouldn't agree with that. And all for some greedy customers who want it cheap no matter who had to suffer.... is this the 'value' for your euro you are talking about??

Very noble cause you support..... however by you not shopping there is not helping any of the employees in Ireland our elsewhere, at least they are working, if Tesco are such an apalling employer why have they so mant staff? Is it possible the employee in Doughlas is the one with the problem?

I agree Tesco are a monopolistic nightmare, but if it were not them some other profit driven organisation would fill the vacuum. I personally don't shop in Tesco by choice but would not rule it out point blank!

In addition a lot of people shop where it is cheapest for a reason, if we were all loaded we could shop locally, or the retailers could drop their prices too... I don't see how it is possible that you are saving €120 a week, your original shopping bill must have been close to €500????????

cfcj

thebman wrote: »

So Tesco should pay more than the minimum wage for an unskilled job?

That sounds like crazy talk TBH.

Your're the one who said it not me, so maybe you're talking crazy talk?

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

thebman wrote: »

So Tesco should pay more than the minimum wage for an unskilled job?

That sounds like crazy talk TBH.

Your're the one who said it not me, so maybe you're talking crazy talk?

How much do you think an entry-level position in a supermarket should pay?

cfcj

dbready wrote: »

Very noble cause you support..... however by you not shopping there is not helping any of the employees in Ireland our elsewhere, at least they are working, if Tesco are such an apalling employer why have they so mant staff? Is it possible the employee in Doughlas is the one with the problem?

I agree Tesco are a monopolistic nightmare, but if it were not them some other profit driven organisation would fill the vacuum. I personally don't shop in Tesco by choice but would not rule it out point blank!

In addition a lot of people shop where it is cheapest for a reason, if we were all loaded we could shop locally, or the retailers could drop their prices too... I don't see how it is possible that you are saving €120 a week, your original shopping bill must have been close to €500????????

From my understanding Tesco is using the relocation of a store to force the staff with new agreements, and pay cuts. This is according to Mandate. If you think that the employees are to blame for that then thats your opinion.

I have radically looked at how I grocery shop, €120 is what I have trimmed off my weekly spend. Up to you wether you believe it or not.

Ireland will survive without Tesco... People who support Tesco are afraid of the real competition that supermarkets were meant to give. Instead what they have done is kill off the competition. I don't support supermarkets and would rather give my money direct to the supplier or at least to an honourable company where I know the supplier is getting a fair price. Clearly this isn't the case with Tesco, as reported by the IFA. As consumers we are in the dark as to what the cost price is, but I think we can safely say that with Tesco's giant uplift in profits for the first quarter of this year that they are the winners here. I really don't get all the cheerleading for Tesco profits and desire to wipe out Irish suppliers.

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

From my understanding Tesco is using the relocation of a store to force the staff with new agreements, and pay cuts. This is according to Mandate. If you think that the employees are to blame for that then thats your opinion.

The point is we don’t really know what’s going on. Forming an opinion either way is impossible without knowing all the facts.

cfcj wrote: »

Ireland will survive without Tesco... People who support Tesco are afraid of the real competition that supermarkets were meant to give. Instead what they have done is kill off the competition.

Tesco have killed off competition in Ireland? What “competition” are you referring to?

cfcj wrote: »

As consumers we are in the dark as to what the cost price is, but I think we can safely say that with Tesco's giant uplift in profits for the first quarter of this year that they are the winners here.

Tesco’s takings in Ireland have increased this year? Really?

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, first of all, I doubt that all of Tesco’s employees are earning no more than the minimum wage. In fact, based on the fact that staff at Tesco in Douglas are prepared to strike to hang onto their existing contracts, that suggests that they obviously have a lot to lose, doesn’t it? So maybe their terms of employment aren’t all that bad?

Secondly, anyone who works for the minimum wage is “vulnerable”? I doubt I’m the only person reading this thread who has worked for the minimum wage in the past, but I certainly wouldn’t have considered myself “vulnerable” at the time.

Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but are you suggesting that because some of Tesco’s employees earn no more than the minimum wage (I don’t know if this is the case, by the way, but we’ll assume so for argument’s sake), they are therefore “trapped” in their jobs (and have been for some time, apparently) as they are too “vulnerable” to risk leaving and trying to find a job elsewhere? Therefore, they are forced to put up with any crap that Tesco imposes on them? If so, couldn’t we extend that logic to all employers who pay minimum wage? It seems to suggest that you feel that paying minimum wage is some form of exploitation?

Talk about a total misreprentation of what I had said... I think you will find my actual words were "But that aside it doesn't take too much common sense to figure out that paying around the minimum wage will draw the most vulnerable sections of the society" I have made no asumptions of the pay bands within Tesco. But just to add, the pay of the 13 to 17 years old staff in the Evitex Apparel Factory in Bangladesh, that was caught making Tesco clothing is 8c (7p) per hour with a 10hr shift.

Jip

CFJ, I notice your complete failure to answer any question put to you directly but tend to go off on some tangent each time.

As I previously asked, do you know the reason for the strike in Cork and the conditions the pre-96ers were on and what Tesco wanted their new conditions to be ? And do you actually know anyone who works in Tesco or did you just make that up, I suspect the latter as outlined in my previous response to you.

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

How much do you think an entry-level position in a supermarket should pay?

Thats up to the supermarket, I haven't made issue with the level of pay. How much do you think the workers in the sweat shops should be paid?

djpbarry

cfcj wrote: »

I have made no asumptions of the pay bands within Tesco.

So you don't know what the staff in Tesco are being paid or what their working conditions are like?

cfcj wrote: »

How much do you think the workers in the sweat shops should be paid?

I think anyone working anywhere should obviously be paid at least the legal minimum wage of their state/country/region - surely that's stating the obvious?

cfcj

Jip wrote: »

CFJ, I notice your complete failure to answer any question put to you directly but tend to go off on some tangent each time.

As I previously asked, do you know the reason for the strike in Cork and the conditions the pre-96ers were on and what Tesco wanted their new conditions to be ? And do you actually know anyone who works in Tesco or did you just make that up, I suspect the latter as outlined in my previous response to you.

Said in an earlier post...

"From my understanding Tesco is using the relocation of a store to force the staff with new agreements, and pay cuts. This is according to Mandate. If you think that the employees are to blame for that then thats your opinion."

Maybe actually read what is being said. You can suspect what you want about me:) I have no affiliation to any organisation or group and have not worked for any retail company since January. I suspect that Tesco need not employ a PR company with good soldiers like you around lol


Incidently you haven't answered these questions I asked of you earlier...

"And what is my agenda??

No, because I can't present any evidence means I cannot accuse Dunnes of something, even if I know it is true or not. This is a basic rule of the site. And if there was evidence be sure I would be gunning for Dunnes also.

I have worked for 14 years in retail and never worked for a company that engages in forced or child labour. The suggestion that retailers must and always put suppliers over a barrel is nonsense.

I don't need to ask myself anything about Coca Cola, in general saying 'well they are doing it too' is a poor excuse. There are other places to get your groceries... well hopefully unless you live in a 'Tesco Town'.

I wonder what needs to happen before you would boycott a company, for me the child labour was enough. Maybe you find that acceptable?"

So slightly hypocritical of you to suggest I am not answering questions when you yourself have not done same.

When have I gone off on a tangent? Maybe you don't know the meaning of the word But wasn't talking about Coca-Cola in Boots a digression? lol

I notice that you, and your Tesco loving friends, are not picking up on anything about the child labour... so is it that lets ignore it and we don't have to deal with it?? Maybe its because its indefensible, yet why would you support a company that engages in it?

bladespin

cfcj wrote: »

I bet the staff in their Douglas, Cork, store or indeed the staff working for suppliers in Bangladesh, South Korea or Thailand that wouldn't agree with that. And all for some greedy customers who want it cheap no matter who had to suffer.... is this the 'value' for your euro you are talking about??

Yep, I really don't care as long as I can afford to feed my family.

You really should try to read the title of the thread 'fair play Tesco'


BTW Tesco doesn't employ children, in any of it's stores.

If you want to rant and rave about yadda yadda then go start a R&R thread.
You're obviously wrong as Tesco's market share hasn't dropped, therefore they must be good at what they do. QED.

sparklepants

djpbarry wrote: »

Tesco’s takings in Ireland have increased this year? Really?

Tesco achieved 9.3% profit margin in Ireland last year and this is set to increase by 0.2% this year. This is far higher than the 6% margin in the UK. So, yes, really!

Jip wrote: »

As I previously asked, do you know the reason for the strike in Cork and the conditions the pre-96ers were on and what Tesco wanted their new conditions to be ?

Tesco essentially wanted to reduce the pay of the longer-term workers by 7.5%, There were also lesser issues such as payment of staff in cash, and breaks. The staff wanted to be retained on their existing conditions. Tesco claimed that due to the "changing economic circumstances" it was necessary to make the cuts. Mandate argued that the company was making huge profits, was more successfful than ever and that the Douglas store was thriving. The Labour Court ruled that the Tesco claims were completely unfounded. (This is also my view.)

cfcj

djpbarry wrote: »

So you don't know what the staff in Tesco are being paid or what their working conditions are like?
I think anyone working anywhere should obviously be paid at least the legal minimum wage of their state/country/region - surely that's stating the obvious?

This question is rediculous... what is the point, again you are bullying with your constant constant twisting of what I am saying. Its a poor argument you have, if any argument at all.

Do you think it is also obvious that people in Ireland support these conditions even though they would be illegal here? ...even employing children and forced exploitative labour from adults?

By the way... I get it you like Tesco, they can do no wrong. You have no problem if Irish suppliers go under or shedding jobs in order for Tesco to profit. I get it.

cfcj

sparklepants wrote: »

Tesco achieved 9.3% profit margin in Ireland last year and this is set to increase by 0.2% this year. This is far higher than the 6% margin in the UK. So, yes, really!


Tesco essentially wanted to reduce the pay of the longer-term workers by 7.5%, There were also lesser issues such as payment of staff in cash, and breaks. The staff wanted to be retained on their existing conditions. Tesco claimed that due to the "changing economic circumstances" it was necessary to make the cuts. Mandate argued that the company was making huge profits, was more successfful than ever and that the Douglas store was thriving. The Labour Court ruled that the Tesco claims were completely unfounded. (This is also my view.)

Wait for the 'where's the evidence' from one of Tesco PR. lol then even if you have evidence they won't read it.... either their heads are in the sand or they are trying to push everyone else's in there.

Jip

cfcj wrote: »

I suspect that Tesco need not employ a PR company with good soldiers like you around

cfcj wrote:

By the way... I get it you like Tesco, they can do no wrong.

cfcj wrote:

Wait for the 'where's the evidence' from one of Tesco PR

Ah the typical response from people like yourself to people who don't agree with your point of view and fail to make any form of decent argument, just fall back on "you're a Tesco lover if you don't agree with me", it's about as mature as the "yore ma" argument. You can't play the debate so you play the man instead.

Lucky for yourself that sparklepants came along and bailed you out as to what the Cork dispute was all about as you obviously had no understanding of it. And despite claiming to know people in Tesco and how they operate you now freely admit to not having a clue about what the pay rates are, funny that isn't it as you claim to know everything else about them.

cfcj

Jip wrote: »

Ah the typical response from people like yourself to people who don't agree with your point of view and fail to make any form of decent argument, just fall back on "you're a Tesco lover if you don't agree with me", it's about as mature as the "yore ma" argument.

Lucky for yourself that sparklepants came along and bailed you out as to what the Cork dispute was all about as you obviously had no understanding of that that dispute was about. And despite claiming to know people in Tesco and how they operate you now freely admit to not having a clue about what the pay rates are, funny that isn't it as you claim to know everything else about them.

So you don't agree that child labour should be stopped?

I don't claim to know everything about Tesco. Please point out where I have said that.

Again you fail to answer the questions I asked, yet have demanded to me to re-answer the questions. Franky your argument is soundling like the barrel bottom scraping that it is. I take it you have nothing other to add since you don't answer the direct questions. I will take it now that you won't answer the questions and have double standards.

Scofflaw

cfcj wrote: »

Wait for the 'where's the evidence' from one of Tesco PR. lol then even if you have evidence they won't read it.... either their heads are in the sand or they are trying to push everyone else's in there.

This thread is generating a good deal more heat than light. cfcj, there's nothing unreasonable about requests that you back up your claims with evidence, and persistently referring to everyone who disagrees with you as 'Tesco PR' is not helping either the thread or your case.

moderately,
Scofflaw

cfcj

bladespin wrote: »

Yep, I really don't care as long as I can afford to feed my family.

You really should try to read the title of the thread 'fair play Tesco'


BTW Tesco doesn't employ children, in any of it's stores.

If you want to rant and rave about yadda yadda then go start a R&R thread.
You're obviously wrong as Tesco's market share hasn't dropped, therefore they must be good at what they do. QED.

Last time I checked this was a discussion boards and not fan website and I disagree with the OP, and have mapped out why. Pointing out how Tesco operate and the unethical behaviour they engage in world wide is a valid point to oppose the congratulatory theme of the OP.

That you don't care, ignore or possibly searching for justification in supporting a company that does use forced and child labour is up to you. I certainly won't avert my eyes to the impact of being a consumer.

I have not said, hinted at or even thought that Tesco hire children in any of their stores in Ireland so I'm not sure what that was about.

I don't really get that being opposed to something so awful as child labour or indeed how Tesco have treated suppliers could be classified as 'ranting and raving'.

I hope everyone that reads this is of the same opinion to stamp out child and forced labour and that as consumers we have that in our power and also we should be demanding more information from the likes of Tesco PLC and Primark Ltd, or even Dunnes Stores. By ignoring it doesn't mean it goes away. I have no problem telling people to avoid companies that actively engage in unethical behaviour and I really don't want to live where there is no alternative.

If Tesco cleaned up its act and acted fairly then I have no problem with them. The simple fact is that they don't and actively aim to suppress information about how they operate e.g. refusal to sign up to the UK supermarket watchdog.

In theory: If we didn't have the regulations to prevent child labour in Ireland and Tesco were employing, or supporting suppliers who employ, children in the same conditions as their suppliers in Bangladesh would you still shop there?

cfcj

Scofflaw wrote: »

This thread is generating a good deal more heat than light. cfcj, there's nothing unreasonable about requests that you back up your claims with evidence, and persistently referring to everyone who disagrees with you as 'Tesco PR' is not helping either the thread or your case.

moderately,
Scofflaw

For the record, As this post has been reported: I want to point out that I have never referred to any individual as 'Tesco PR' much less persistently. Nor have I indicated that it would be unreasonable to request evidence. I have asked The Moderator, Scofflaw, to withdraw his false remarks and he refuses.