Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009

K-9

billy the squid wrote: »

Will you be saying that when people start appearing before the special criminal court for civil disobedience.

We see in Mayo the local District Court Judge refused bail for people accused of what amounted to public order offences, Legal aid was also refused to those who may have been entitled to it, because she "couldn't be handing it out like smarties." obstructing the construction of the shell pipeline. Shell2Sea is a group of more than three people. What is to stop one Garda claiming that they are a criminal outfit resulting in them all being interned

Yep and child porn laws will be used to stop good, honest to God, normal, ordinary, decent viewers of pornography.

No doubt 1/2 exceptional cases will be pointed out to prove child porn laws are bad.

Judges can be asses, but the right of appeal is there.

Dyr

K-9 wrote: »

You have a problem with how Gilligan was treated?

You have a problem with how Nicky Kelly was treated?:)

K-9

Bambi wrote: »

You have a problem with how Nicky Kelly was treated?:)

You have a problem with answering questions? Maybe that's why you don't like these types of laws?

Anyway, yes, you can point to examples of how it was misused. The law is an ass and all that. Still doesn't mean the law itself is a bad one.

amen

totally off the wall put could this law be used to prosecute political parties who are involved in corruption or religious orders who abused children?

what about section 4.a replacing "person ordinarily resident in the state" with "stateless person habitualy resident in the state" does this mean if you are an irish citizen(or a citizen of any state) that you cannot be charged?

Iang87

i for love nor money cannot understand why people are saying this is bad and civil liberties and ****.

come down and live around these pricks in Limerick and parts of Dublin for 2 weeks. That'd change ye're tune ****in sharpish

thelordofcheese

Iang87 wrote: »

i for love nor money cannot understand why people are saying this is bad and civil liberties and ****.

come down and live around these pricks in Limerick and parts of Dublin for 2 weeks. That'd change ye're tune ****in sharpish

HURRR! IT'S OK TO RENOUNCE OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES, WE'RE SCARED!

bull-fucking-shit.

ScumLord

Iang87 wrote: »

i for love nor money cannot understand why people are saying this is bad and civil liberties and ****.

come down and live around these pricks in Limerick and parts of Dublin for 2 weeks. That'd change ye're tune ****in sharpish

Why should I have my civil liberty's restricted because of some dick heads in two small areas of the country. Why should the rest of us be wrapped in cotton wool because Limerick and Dublin can't sort them selfs out?

This is the kind of thing that annoys me, lock up everyone to make sure the criminals are in there somewhere.

Iang87

wait wait wait are ye drug dealing scumbags who terrorise people around them. If you answer no to this theres prob a 99% chance your life will be unaffected by these changes

Iang87

thelordofcheese wrote: »

HURRR! IT'S OK TO RENOUNCE OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES, WE'RE SCARED!

bull-fucking-shit.

civil liberties crap what about the people who literally live in fear of their lives and wont even go outside there door in the evening cos they're afraid or worse yet cos they dont know what'll happen to them. That constant nagging fear. Theres your ****ing civil liberties for a lot of people in these areas.

ScumLord wrote: »

Why should I have my civil liberty's restricted because of some dick heads in two small areas of the country. Why should the rest of us be wrapped in cotton wool because Limerick and Dublin can't sort them selfs out?

This is the kind of thing that annoys me, lock up everyone to make sure the criminals are in there somewhere.

What exactly is this law going to do to you. Why when this was announced did you run to the stud farm to find the highest horse you could, and then proceed to sit up on it. So come down for a second and realise that Limerick and Dublin cant sort themselves out and its not Limerick or Dublins fault, Its years of bad planning bad organisation that have led to this crap.

So to give the gardai just the slightest ****ing chance of even gettin close to winning against these gangs the whole country is asked to lend their bit with this law and to just tolerate these laws thats all, cos on the grand scale of it regular people are going to be unaffected simple as.

So feel free to bitch and moan about civil liberties but whilst your bitching spare the slightest thought for the regular hardworking people living in these areas who live in fear

thelordofcheese

Iang87 wrote: »

wait wait wait are ye drug dealing scumbags who terrorise people around them. If you answer no to this theres prob a 99% chance your life will be unaffected by these changes

It's irrelevant.

The mantra of "99% of people will be fine" is rubbish, because these laws apply to everyone, what with us all being subject to the laws of the state.

These laws impinge on everyone civil liberties and trying to justify it as ok because it'll get rid of the bad men is, frankly, disgusting.

Like it or not (and, i suspect not) we live in a free society, yes prisoners are afforded the same civil liberties as everyone else and this is one of the prices we pay to live in a free society.
And i'd rather live here and now than in the kind of country and the problems it has than one that would use warrentless detentions and juryless trials against it's own citizens.

Iang87 wrote: »

civil liberties crap what about the people who literally live in fear of their lives and wont even go outside there door in the evening cos they're afraid or worse yet cos they dont know what'll happen to them. That constant nagging fear. Theres your ****ing civil liberties for a lot of people in these areas.

Wow, it's like you have a mental block on understanding what words mean.

Frankly, if it's a choice between the civil liberties of everyone on this island and these people who live in fear. Well fuck 'em.

Their suffering, no matter how great, is not justification for this kind of legislation. I do sympathise, but frankly organised crime can be combated and brought under a greater measure of control (anyone who thinks we can eliminate it is a fucking idiot) without stripping everyone on the island of essential liberties, which ironically enough, also include the poor bastards in the middle of this.

Relevant

To all the people who are complaining about this bill... Do you REALLY think the Gardai are going to come after you under this bill when you are entirely innocent and manage to convince a judge in the special criminal court to convict you?

Sparks

Iang87 wrote: »

So feel free to bitch and moan about civil liberties but whilst your bitching spare the slightest thought for the regular hardworking people living in these areas who live in fear

90 seconds walk from my front door is where a group of kids threw eggs at a guy's house so he'd chase them down the alleyway where they shot him in the stomach. There isn't a road from my home to the rest of the city that hasn't seen someone executed on it in the last year or two. And I'm a regular hardworking sort.

So, from someone in your alleged position, quit moaning and get on with it. This is a bad law and shouldn't go on the books and won't fix the problem.

Relevant

Sparks wrote: »

90 seconds walk from my front door is where a group of kids threw eggs at a guy's house so he'd chase them down the alleyway where they shot him in the stomach. There isn't a road from my home to the rest of the city that hasn't seen someone executed on it in the last year or two. And I'm a regular hardworking sort.

So, from someone in your alleged position, quit moaning and get on with it. This is a bad law and shouldn't go on the books and won't fix the problem.

So how do YOU propose the Gardai prosecute the gang bosses?

Iang87

Sparks wrote: »

90 seconds walk from my front door is where a group of kids threw eggs at a guy's house so he'd chase them down the alleyway where they shot him in the stomach. There isn't a road from my home to the rest of the city that hasn't seen someone executed on it in the last year or two. And I'm a regular hardworking sort.

So, from someone in your alleged position, quit moaning and get on with it. This is a bad law and shouldn't go on the books and won't fix the problem.

jesus god forbid they try something.

something has to be done thats the simplicity and they're doing something so why dont you quit moaning and get on with it

topper75

This has gone through with little faffing about, thanks be to God.


Last ditch effort by the lefties but sure let em whinge. I expect some meaningful results out of this before long. The free legal aid guy can provide the scum with some moral support, but that is about it. Bye bye Dundons, Keanes, Westies etc. Your reign is over.

I wonder are the civil liberties types all barricading the doors and windows of their houses. Sneaky cops should be around to collect ye in the paddywagon now any minute. Keep Amnesty on speeddial.

thelordofcheese

Iang87 wrote: »

jesus god forbid they try something.

something has to be done thats the simplicity and they're doing something so why dont you quit moaning and get on with it

it's the fact that the somthing they are doing is wrong is where the issue lies.

Effort does not equal worth.

topper75 wrote: »

This has gone through with little faffing about, thanks be to God.


Last ditch effort by the lefties but sure let em whinge. I expect some meaningful results out of this before long. The free legal aid guy can provide the scum with some moral support, but that is about it. Bye bye Dundons, Keanes, Westies etc. Your reign is over.

I wonder are the civil liberties types all barricading the doors and windows of their houses. Sneaky cops should be around to collect ye in the paddywagon now any minute. Keep Amnesty on speeddial.

Yes, that's entirely what peoples concern has been about.... you're total lack of concern about your own fucking liberties is sickening.

KatieMalone

Welcome to the police state.

The "gangs" are nothing other than an excuse to ram this through.

Relevant

It has been passed. Great news!!

Now for the hippy bashing act 2009

thelordofcheese

Relevant wrote: »

It has been passed. Great news!!

Now for the hippy bashing act 2009

Hurrah for short sighted, reactionary legislation!

Sparks

Relevant wrote: »

So how do YOU propose the Gardai prosecute the gang bosses?

As posted in the other thread on this:

Sparks wrote: »

Raise income taxes to pay for more Gardai, more Garda man-hours and more Garda equipment, and then put those Gardai out into the field for those man-hours, with that equipment instead of sitting in courtrooms twiddling their thumbs waiting to appear in court for days on end, or back in the station doing secretarial work, or any one of the other myriad places that they're assigned to that are basicly wastes of a rather expensive resource.

Scratching a new law on a book isn't going to help when the people the law is supposed to control (a) don't bother reading new laws; (b) may not be able to read those new laws if they could be bothered trying to; and (c) wouldn't follow those new laws anyway, which means we need more enforcement anyway, and we're right back to where we came in...

Relevant

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Hurrah for short sighted, reactionary legislation!

What makes you think this is "reactionary"
Gang crime has been a blight on this country for over a decade

Wertz

Relevant wrote: »

What makes you think this is "reactionary"
Gang crime has been a blight on this country for over a decade

Becuase every single piece of legislation this bunch of muppets have drafted in the last 5 yrs has been reactionary. They haven't a pro-active bone in tehir collective bodies...

Anyone who thinks this is going to change things for the better re; gangland crime is deluded...

drunkmonkey

Relevant wrote: »

It has been passed. Great news!!

Cause and effect, expect criminals to go down blazing under this act. Expect Garda to be armed within the next 18mts, Expect more bloodshed.

I predict this to get a lot more voilent, hope i'm very wrong, but if i'm a criminal I wouldn't be going peacefully when I know i've no rights and can be convited and spend life in prison on hearsay.

and what have you against hippys? Or criminal mastermind drug dealers as there referred to under this act?

topper75

My "total lack of concern about [my] own fucking liberties" is rooted in my total confidence that I will not be adversely affected in the slightest.

I don't feel I am having anything 'taken away' from me.

En contraire - I now have an opportunity of living in a society that can fight crime more effectively.

When the gangs are tackled, the civil liberty and daily lives of the residents in Ballinacurra Weston, O'Malley Park, St. Mary's Park etc. will increase one hundred fold. They deserve this every bit as much as those people living in the areas where gangs do not flourish. They are NOT second class citizens and our legislature has rightly moved to protect them.

The alternative of legislatively sitting on our hands so that academic notions can be protected is not an option.

Relevant

Sparks wrote: »

As posted in the other thread on this:

The point is that the law is protecting these people. No amount of Gardai can prosecute these people if there is a culture of silence as regards taling to the gardai

KatieMalone

I am sure these laws will go the same way as the UK

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6350362.ece

thelordofcheese

Relevant wrote: »

What makes you think this is "reactionary"
Gang crime has been a blight on this country for over a decade

So you agree it's shortsighted then?

Cool, we're getting somewhere.

It's reactionary because it takes the immediate reaction by the average git on the street and enshines it into law. Nobody has thought this through, certainly nobody seems to have gone "i wonder what happened in other countries where they tried this" and if they have and still have pushed through with it then i'm shocked and saddened.

It doesn't surprise me that every second person thinks it a good idea, scared people do stupid things. i'm just surprised that legislators thought this was a good idea.

KatieMalone

topper75 wrote: »

My "total lack of concern about [my] own fucking liberties" is rooted in my total confidence that I will not be adversely affected in the slightest.

I don't feel I am having anything 'taken away' from me.

:pac::pac: Read some history. Ignorance is bliss.

ScumLord

Iang87 wrote: »

What exactly is this law going to do to you. Why when this was announced did you run to the stud farm to find the highest horse you could, and then proceed to sit up on it.

Because it's easier to kick peasants from up here. :P

So come down for a second and realise that Limerick and Dublin cant sort themselves out and its not Limerick or Dublins fault, Its years of bad planning bad organisation that have led to this crap.

I'd be the first to blame the government for anything and everything but those community's have to take some responcibilty. The government created the environment sure, but the total breakdown of community where people don't know their neighbors and become paranoid about what they might be up to is just as much to blame. Ye have to take responcibility for your own home and community. There's plenty of small towns up and down the country where scumbags have gotten run out of town on more than one occasion.

This government is useless and can't be relied on.

Wertz

Relevant wrote: »

The point is that the law is protecting these people. No amount of Gardai can prosecute these people if there is a culture of silence as regards taling to the gardai

...and how does this amendment change the culture of witness intimidation?
It may change the already limited amount of jury intimidation by removing them from the process, but you can't remove witnesses from the case or effectuvely hide their identity.

Relevant

thelordofcheese wrote: »

So you agree it's shortsighted then?

No i don't think it is. Just because i didn't reply to it directly doesnt mean i agree

Relevant

Wertz wrote: »

...and how does this amendment change the culture of witness intimidation?

It takes the onus off reliance on witnesses who may not be willing to give evidence due to fear

thelordofcheese

topper75 wrote: »

My "total lack of concern about [my] own fucking liberties" is rooted in my total confidence that I will not be adversely affected in the slightest.

you know, even though your wrong on everything you say, i hope this one time you're right.

topper75 wrote: »

I don't feel I am having anything 'taken away' from me.

En contraire - I now have an opportunity of living in a society that can fight crime more effectively.

and back to being wrong.

topper75 wrote: »

When the gangs are tackled, the civil liberty and daily lives of the residents in Ballinacurra Weston, O'Malley Park, St. Mary's Park etc. will increase one hundred fold. They deserve this every bit as much as those people living in the areas where gangs do not flourish. They are NOT second class citizens and our legislature has rightly moved to protect them.

The alternative of legislatively sitting on our hands so that academic notions can be protected is not an option.

first, civil liberties are not an academic notion, entire nations go through revolutions and war to have these freedoms you so quickly toss aside for the illusion of security.

Second, this isn't so much a counter-point as something i think you need to be told.

I've noticed that you're very fond of trying to create a false dichotomy of "us and them", what with your contant references by name to people who've been killed, places aflicted etc, etc to make yourself seem 'in touch' and then trying to paint anyone who opposes this terrible bill as indifferent to their plight, and only concerned with "academic notions".
It's all very Bush Jr in it's tone, as in it's hamfisted, obvious and appeals to people who want simple answers to complex situations.
y'know, idiots.

So basically, stop that shit right fucking now, it's transparant as fuck and you're fooling no one.

topper75

thelordofcheese wrote: »

It's reactionary because it takes the immediate reaction by the average git on the street and enshines it into law.

This democracy lark we have must really grind your gears.

Would you like to take the vote off the 'ordinary git in the street' altogether? We could make some kind of permanent patrician unicameral legislature where a small group of you and your buddies decide what is best instead?

topper75

KatieMalone wrote: »

:pac::pac: Read some history. Ignorance is bliss.

I read as much history as I can Katie but I've no idea what aspect you have in mind that counters my welcoming of the new act. Care to unburden me of my ignorance and specify?

Wertz

Relevant wrote: »

It takes the onus off reliance on witnesses who may not be willing to give evidence due to fear

Like it or not witnesses (and their statements) still form a substantial basis for any court case brung...even with these new powers and the (trustworthy?) word of any member of AGS, a case isn't going to have legs without those witnesses.

thelordofcheese

topper75 wrote: »

This democracy lark we have must really grind your gears.

Would you like to take the vote off the 'ordinary git in the street' altogether? We could make some kind of permanent patrician unicameral legislature where a small group of you and your buddies decide what is best instead?

yes, i hate democracy too.
It's a funny old business, hating democracy and loving civil liberties like the right to vote.

I don't know how i managed it sometimes, prehaps this army of stawmen you have built might be able to help me make sense of it all.....

topper75

No strawman there at all. I quoted you directly with your view about how the law was rooted in the desires of the average man in the street. It's quite a disgusting and pompous sentence having read it again.

Cops called to lift you yet? Maybe the bell's broke. Sneak a peak out the window.

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

This democracy lark we have must really grind your gears.

Would you like to take the vote off the 'ordinary git in the street' altogether? We could make some kind of permanent patrician unicameral legislature where a small group of you and your buddies decide what is best instead?

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a democratic republic. We choose the people to make choices for us. We do a pretty bad job of it too, but that is our right thankfully.

topper75 wrote: »

I read as much history as I can Katie but I've no idea what aspect you have in mind that counters my welcoming of the new act. Care to unburden me of my ignorance and specify?

You say this law will never be used against you. What the other poster was referring to when speaking of history would probably include things like the Nazis (democratically elected remember) and HUAC.

We don't just wake up one day after a bloody coup and realise we are in an oppressive State. Freedom dies slowly as people give it up through fear.

topper75

OK that's a wrap. Thanks Kayroo. We shall see what prosecutions the law yields.

drunkmonkey

topper75 wrote: »

We shall see what prosecutions the law yields.

No we won't that's the whole point on the thread:rolleyes:

Robbo

topper75 wrote: »

OK that's a wrap. Thanks Kayroo. We shall see what prosecutions the law yields.

Given that the broadly similar 2006 act has yielded the square root of shag all prosecutions, I'd wager that this one will be marginally more successful at best.

The most important thing is that you've been misdirected from thinking about the public finances for a while and the facade of fighting bogeymen is upheld. I'm beginning to think that AH is some kind of bizarre legislative thinktank.

topper75

topper75 wrote: »

OK that's a wrap. Thanks Kayroo. We shall see what prosecutions the law yields.

It's not about what this law does really. The real affect of this law is that it moves the ball a couple of inches further. We begin to accept new realities about what we can and cannot do and eventually we wake up and the State can do what they like and we have applauded their efforts to make it thus in the name of safety and security.

Ms. Joplin was right, you don't know what you've got till it's gone.

EDIT: The historical reference I believe Katie was making earlier may have been to Julius Caesar by the way. In a time of great crisis the people gave Caesar unprecedented powers to "save them". Rome was never a Republic again. The people gave up their power and their rights and accepted an Emperor. Democracy, in it's Roman form, died to the sound of a Triumph (a roman ritual welcoming a conquering general into the city) and the people cheering.

Dyr

When it comes to needing these extraordinary powers maybe what we should be asking is are the gangsters in this country some kind of genius macavitys of crime that exist nowhere else in western europe or are the people who are tasked with locking them up particularly useless??

drunkmonkey

I presume they done this under the old law not the new one...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/80-held-after-major-drugs-operation-in-capital-417145.html

The existing law can work, hope they get convictions for the herion dealers....

Relevant

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I presume they done this under the old law not the new one...

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/80-held-after-major-drugs-operation-in-capital-417145.html

The existing law can work, hope they get convictions for the herion dealers....

They are all small time junkies dealing to feed their habits. I would say it is more likely that the intel gathered in this raid will be used in conjunction with the new Criminal Justice Bill

Iang87

i'd make the assumption that this is more an information gathering excercise than anything. surely a couple of the 80 will give up info to save themselves a couple of years.

All in all happy days cant wait til we start to see reults of this change in the law

Prof.Badass

Iang87 wrote: »

i'd make the assumption that this is more an information gathering excercise than anything. surely a couple of the 80 will give up info to save themselves a couple of years.

All in all happy days cant wait til we start to see reults of this change in the law

By results you mean increased prison numbers, right?

You're not gonna get rid of the drugs business. It's too lucrative.

Iang87

i know that the drug business will never be gone, what i want to happen is for innocent people to stop getting bothered by these scum. They can kill each other all they want but this shouldn't affect innocent people

Wez

It's the backwards thinking of the people in power that's gotten this country into the mess it is now bogged down in..

Look at how Holland (Ireland, if it were more open minded imo), they had to close 8 prisons due to lack of offenders! However, we can't seem to find enough people to lock up these days..

They seem to be running us into the ground, filling their own pockets before they jump ship and leave us pick up the peices.