Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009

Belfast

StopTheDrugWar! wrote: »

So basically a gang is any group of 3 people committing a crime. If a garda "suspects" someone is in a gang they are allowed interrogate them for a week and then if they "know" you're in a gang (the way people always "know" things and are wrong) you get sent to a juryless trial and the gaurds opinion is used as evidence against you.

To me it seems like more than just gang bosses who could be affected by this. Basically anyone who has any dealings in contraband could be subjected to trial without jury, unless it can be proven they made the contraband themselves striclty for personal use. Otherwise they are "part of a criminal organisation".

Then if the government bans more stuff, anyone who subverts their oppressive laws is refused the right to a jury.


A jury of the people is the last line of defence a democracy has against oppressive laws.

Jury nullification has happened before in other countries, and it will most likely happen again (although apparently not here). This amendment is quite simply a blow to democracy.

The criminal gang need not break any Irish law, if their main purpose is a criminal offence in any other county then the new law applies to them here, even of not an offence under Irish law.

Belfast

K-9 wrote: »

Apologies. Should have said it was a play on words.

The law is aimed at making it easier to convict serious criminal gangs and circumventing the very same juries that they abuse and intimidate.

Could the law be abused? Yes, but I don't see any evidence of this becoming a police state. There are probably plenty of laws on the statute books that could be interpreted as police state laws, yet we have no police state. There has been plenty of warnings like this on various laws in the last 10/15 years and none have proved correct.

edit
A few years ago I would have agreed with you.

Until some I heard from some people I know, who have had personal experience of serious abuse of power by the Gardaí not in Donegal. ( I give any more info as in may end up in the courts or worse)

Giving the Gardaí too much power will only lead to trouble.

K-9

Belfast wrote: »

a few year ago I would have agreed with you.

Until some I heard from, people I know about some serious abuse of power by the Gardaí not in Donegal. ( I give any more info as in may end up in the courts or worse)

Giving the Gardaí too much power will only lead to trouble.

I'd agree to an extent, but does that mean a squeaky clean Police force first and is that a reality? 14,000 odd members and all.

I do think most of the complaints against the Guards are from the usual suspects.

Again, there is no evidence of a police state on this thread, just the usual bent coppers, which is no surprise.

Belfast

K-9 wrote: »

I'd agree to an extent, but does that mean a squeaky clean Police force first and is that a reality? 14,000 odd members and all.

I do think most of the complaints against the Guards are from the usual suspects.

Again, there is no evidence of a police state on this thread, just the usual bent coppers, which is no surprise.

The bent cops I am talking about are at the highest levels.

I have no doubt that the usual suspects make complaints too.

Depends on what you mean by Police state.

"The term police state describes a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

Wertz

Seems that some Green party members are getting cold feet about this bill judging by last night abstentions and a rumoured ongoing spat with Ahern.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0715/crime.html

Hell if they keep this up I might even consider voting for them again...that's if they're not simply using these abstentions as a means to make themselves heard on some other issue...

topper75

Belfast wrote: »

The bent cops I am talking about are at the highest levels.

Serious claim there.

Is this a deluded keyboard warrior outburst that I should ignore, or are you going to follow up with another post and rock the State to its foundations?

Belfast

topper75 wrote: »

Serious claim there.

Is this a deluded keyboard warrior outburst that I should ignore, or are you going to follow up with another post and rock the State to its foundations?

It is a long and complex case.

Like the abuse in the church it take years of work before it get to court or a tribunal.

5 years so far and could be another 5 before it is resolved.

The person involved in having a more immediate (unrelated) problem to deal with that is taking al his time.

Dinter

Well I heard that all Gardai are actually paragons of virtue and are the most strait laced and honest bunch of people root and branch and are all absolutely against propagating a police state.

I can't provide any more evidence though so you'll have to take my word for it.

Belfast

Dinter wrote: »

Well I heard that all Gardai are actually paragons of virtue and are the most strait laced and honest bunch of people root and branch and are all absolutely against propagating a police state.

I can't provide any more evidence though so you'll have to take my word for it.

a corrupt and incompetent police force is very different to a police state.

Worst police force in Europe
By Bock
http://bocktherobber.com/2007/03/worst-police-force-in-europe

Normally a police state is more like North Korea