Bought BMW from garage owner

DUBACC

Right - here's one for you consumer rights folks. Bought a lovely BMW 5 series from a garage in March. When i went to pick up the car the owner informed me that the car was actually his own personal car and not the garage's, even though it was advertised on carzone as from the garage. Got a receipt for the money paid and handed over my old 3 series. Was chuffed as it was a good deal but a little wary over the personal v garage issue. There was no warranty listed on the receipt although a verbal 3 month warranty was mentioned. I didn't worry too much as i've bought cars like that before direct from the owner.

However, this time i've hit a bit of a dud. The gearbox needs replacing and is going to cost about 6k. Have i any rights or am i just going to grin and bear it? I have contacted the SIMI and filled in a complaint form already. :mad:

Anan1

Sounds to me as though you bought privately and the fact that the seller also owns a garage is immaterial?

trad

How can a gearbox cost 6K to replace?

Mena

I'll be following this. Bought a car advertised through a dealer and it turned out to be one of the employees. Not that I've had any or expect any issues, but it makes for an interesting case with regard to consumer law.

DUBACC

Trad - it's an automatic gearbox. BMW are not shy about charging for them too.

DUBACC

ANAN - even if it was privately, i presume that under the sale of goods act the goods have to be of a 'merchantable quality and fit for purpose'.

trad

Why don't you try some one like Conway transmissions in Walkinstown. They are specialists and main dealers farm out the work to auto transmission specialists. I blew an auto trans in a Nissan maxima, the car went to a nissan dealer and ended up in Conways, likewise a Mercedes 600SEL with a gearbox problem, car returned to a main mercedes dealer, ended up in conways.

Shop around, don't take a main dealers price for anything

DUBACC

Thanks trad - i'll give them a buzz and see what they charge.

Anan1

DUBACC wrote: »

ANAN - even if it was privately, i presume that under the sale of goods act the goods have to be of a 'merchantable quality and fit for purpose'.

AFAIK the Sale of Goods Act doesn't apply to private sales? How long after you bought the car did the gearbox fail?

Mena

Anan1 wrote: »

AFAIK the Sale of Goods Act doesn't apply to private sales? How long after you bought the car did the gearbox fail?

Is it that black and white though? The car was advertised through a dealership. I'm willing to bet that right there is a mitigating circumstance (when I say bet, my limit would be a pint :P )

Darsad

Wat is the problem with your A/T 6 K sounds very expensive and I am assuming your car is more tyhan 3 yrs old so its more than likely a substantial percentage of it value.

peasant

Too late now, but as a matter of principle I walk away from cars that are sold through dealers/at a dealers premises with some dubious "private sale" clause.

It's usually only ever done for one reason ...to laugh in your face when you try to get the issue fixed that they managed to hide just long enough to last the test drive and the trip home.

Anan1

Mena wrote: »

Is it that black and white though? The car was advertised through a dealership. I'm willing to bet that right there is a mitigating circumstance (when I say bet, my limit would be a pint :P )

I honestly don't know. I'd imagine the receipt would be critical. In fairness though, the OP says that the seller made it clear at the time that it was a private sale.

DUBACC

Anan - started to go about 6 weeks after i got it.

Darsad - 6k is a lot yes. I am gonig to shop around though. The car is 5 years old so 6k is about a third of it's value.

DUBACC

Yes he did state that it was a private sale. However, i do have a copy of the VLC before i signed it which, i think, states that the garage was the owner of the car. If so, surely that says the garage was selling it!

Anan1

DUBACC wrote: »

Anan - started to go about 6 weeks after i got it.

Darsad - 6k is a lot yes. I am gonig to shop around though. The car is 5 years old so 6k is about a third of it's value.

What's the mileage? Does it have a full BMWSH? If so, it might be worth trying BMW for a contribution towards the repair costs.

Anan1

DUBACC wrote: »

Yes he did state that it was a private sale. However, i do have a copy of the VLC before i signed it which, i think, states that the garage was the owner of the car. If so, surely that says the garage was selling it!

You may have a point there - maybe ask a solicitor for a professional opinion?

unkel

DUBACC wrote: »

Got a receipt for the money paid

Was the receipt an official one from the garage - had it the garage name on it, etc.?

Lex Luthor

anytime I bought a car from a garage, its not in the garages name but teh previous owners

I think the garage owner was probably just using his dealer advertising to flog it but he made the buyer aware it was going to be a private sale.

Problem I see was how was a private seller going to offer a 3 month warranty.

Like one other said, the recipt might be the critical piece of evidence

DUBACC

Mileage is about 50k.

I will be ringing my solicitor after lunch - i need to get the VLC copy from home at lunch just to be 100% certain.

trad

If the VLC was in the Garages name and the dealer said it was his private car, I'm sure the Revenue Comissioners would be interested in having a rummage through his books, BIK and all that, you never know what they might find!!! Might be worth mentioning

unkel

DUBACC wrote: »

Yes he did state that it was a private sale. However, i do have a copy of the VLC before i signed it which, i think, states that the garage was the owner of the car. If so, surely that says the garage was selling it!

Nice one

The garage owned it, so they must have sold it to you. That means it was not a private sale and thus the sale of goods act applies.

DUBACC

unkel wrote: »

Was the receipt an official one from the garage - had it the garage name on it, etc.?

no - it was written on the back of the VLC copy

DUBACC

trad wrote: »

If the VLC was in the Garages name and the dealer said it was his private car, I'm sure the Revenue Comissioners would be interested in having a rummage through his books, BIK and all that, you never know what they might find!!! Might be worth mentioning

Hehe - as an accountant i would quite enjoy that one! :cool:

L-M

peasant wrote: »

It's usually only ever done for one reason ...to laugh in your face when you try to get the issue fixed that they managed to hide just long enough to last the test drive and the trip home.

Not really, no. We have two private sales on the lot, which are being sold for a customer who has moved abroad. Nothing wrong with either.

As far as the dealer vs. specialist price goes, a friend got a new gearbox recently at the cost of €837 from a mechanic, the Main dealer wanted €2500 for the same thing.

I wonder did the owner of the garage transfer the vehicle temporarily into the garage's name while he sold it. If the last owner was recorded as him at his home address, you haven't a chance as it was a private sale and as said his occupation is irrelevant. If it was in the name of the garage, I would say you have a much better chance.

Edit: Took me way too long to write that post :rolleyes:

ttm

I've never known a garage owner that actually "owned" a car? Its like saying a bank "owns" money.

If it comes to a legal dispute I'd want to know if the garage owner went out and bought the car privately or if it was a PX or sold to the garage, then if your old PX went back through the garage it can hardly be called a private sale and the owner is trader whether throught the garage or in his own right.

sogood

unkel wrote: »

Nice one

The garage owned it, so they must have sold it to you. That means it was not a private sale and thus the sale of goods act applies.

So, strictly speaking, every car that a garage takes in, can be "bought" personally by the owner of the garage, then sold "privately" from the garage premises, thus avoiding any comeback, warranty, income tax etc. etc. as it was a "private sale". Is this how it seems?

DUBACC

sogood wrote: »

So, strictly speaking, every car that a garage takes in, can be "bought" personally by the owner of the garage, then sold "privately" from the garage premises, thus avoiding any comeback, warranty, income tax etc. etc. as it was a "private sale". Is this how it seems?

Well, having done audits on garages before, i have certainly come across this practice on a couple of occasions - ie cars on stocklist at start of the year, then vanished.

L-M

sogood wrote: »

So, strictly speaking, every car that a garage takes in, can be "bought" personally by the owner of the garage, then sold "privately" from the garage premises, thus avoiding any comeback, warranty, income tax etc. etc. as it was a "private sale". Is this how it seems?

Well technically, yes. Why not?

Wouldn't be much of a garage then though would it, and the tax man could be after the dealer:P

unkel

sogood wrote: »

So, strictly speaking, every car that a garage takes in, can be "bought" personally by the owner of the garage, then sold "privately" from the garage premises, thus avoiding any comeback, warranty, income tax etc. etc. as it was a "private sale". Is this how it seems?

I don't think so. In this particular case, the garage name was on the VLC (which is highly unusual). This can be used as "proof" that the garage owned and sold the car (and not a private person)

Darsad

Op What is the problem with the car i have seen and heard many cases of faulty diagnosis on A/T BMW,s .

The most common of all is condeming the A/T for an erroneous shift pattern or not shifting into top gear at all .

I have seen two particular individuals spend huge money on A/T replacement or repairs to end up without successfully curing the problem.

Top marks to anyone who can tell me what it always turns out to be

trad

DUBACC wrote: »

Hehe - as an accountant i would quite enjoy that one! :cool:

Don't get mad - get even, and in the words of Moss Keane "get your retaliation in first"

smash

If the car was advertised with the garage stock then it doesn't matter who owned it... you bought from a car advertised with the garage stock, you bought it at the garage, you bought it from a garage employee and you got a receipt on garage paper!

They should cover this!

DUBACC

Darsad wrote: »

Op What is the problem with the car i have seen and heard many cases of faulty diagnosis on A/T BMW,s .

The most common of all is condeming the A/T for an erroneous shift pattern or not shifting into top gear at all .

I have seen two particular individuals spend huge money on A/T replacement or repairs to end up without successfully curing the problem.

Top marks to anyone who can tell me what it always turns out to be

Well, the bmw garage i brought it to originally said that there was an oil leak within the gearbox and replaced the pan and filter. The car kept 'jolting' when going from second to first gear as i was slowing down. It started to get worse as it went on and it jolted then when i was starting off from stopped.

smash

DUBACC wrote: »

The car kept 'jolting' when going from second to first gear as i was slowing down.

You're not supposed to go all the way down to first when slowing a car! Stop in 2nd, then put the car into first...

turnsoutIwas

steve06 wrote: »

You're not supposed to go all the way down to first when slowing a car! Stop in 2nd, then put the car into first...

Its an auto though isnt it?

DUBACC

steve06 wrote: »

You're not supposed to go all the way down to first when slowing a car! Stop in 2nd, then put the car into first...

It's an automatic gearbox steve, i am just assuming that it went down to first. It jolts when i am slowing down to about 20kph.

smash

ok sorry, didn't realise that...

maidhc

Anan1 wrote: »

AFAIK the Sale of Goods Act doesn't apply to private sales? How long after you bought the car did the gearbox fail?

It isn't a private sale if the seller is acting the course of business and the buyer purchasing as a private inidvidual!

Ger the man

DUBACC wrote: »

Mileage is about 50k.

I will be ringing my solicitor after lunch - i need to get the VLC copy from home at lunch just to be 100% certain.

A new gearbox after 50k?

Anan1

maidhc wrote: »

It isn't a private sale if the seller is acting the course of business and the buyer purchasing as a private inidvidual!

Sure, if. This is the core question - was the seller acting in the course of business, or was it a private sale by someone who also happens to own a garage?

-Chris-

Go to solitior - a motor trader who sells BMWs sold you a BMW that was registered to their garage.
maidhc's right - if you're acting in the course of business (which it seems this guy was), then Sale of Goods Act should apply.

If you didn't sign anything that said "this is a private sale/trade sale, I thereby relinquish all rights", then I'd think you still have rights.

Defo talk to a solicitor.

Loveless

Ger the man wrote: »

A new gearbox after 50k?

the gearbox went in my brand new VW CAddy after 5K.

Gary ITR

Have you brought the car back to the dealer? If so what did he say? Just you didn't mention that anywhere

Drummerboy08

Do we actuallyknow if the car was registered in the garage's name or, if it was in the sellers name?

Also, the fact that there was no written warranty, leaves you in a nasty spot.

Fey!

Did you collect the car from the garage or from the dealers house?

If you picked it up from the garage, did it leave under its own power (was it pushed/towed off the lot before you started it?)

I always understood that if a sales car was collected from the lot, then it got warrantied, but it it wasn't driven off the lot, it was sold as not running, therefore tough on the buyer.

maidhc

Anan1 wrote: »

Sure, if. This is the core question - was the seller acting in the course of business, or was it a private sale by someone who also happens to own a garage?

The law won't make that distinction, especially if a receipt was given and a trade in taken.

There is only one way to deal with these problems. Bring a claim in the distict court immediately, once the hearing date comes close minds tend to be focused and a resolution is generally reached.

Nforce

I thought that the bmw auto transmissions were fairly bulletproof....i'd certainly expect more than 50k from one? Did the car come with a FSH and is it possible it had a haircut recently?

If you wind up having to shell out for a new 'box yourself I'd recommend Traynors.co.uk or Fabdirect.com.

DUBACC

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Do we actuallyknow if the car was registered in the garage's name or, if it was in the sellers name?

Also, the fact that there was no written warranty, leaves you in a nasty spot.

Sorry - went home for lunch to get the VLC - i was right - it was in the garage's name and address.

DUBACC

Fey! wrote: »

Did you collect the car from the garage or from the dealers house?

If you picked it up from the garage, did it leave under its own power (was it pushed/towed off the lot before you started it?)

I always understood that if a sales car was collected from the lot, then it got warrantied, but it it wasn't driven off the lot, it was sold as not running, therefore tough on the buyer.

No i took a test drive from the garage premises, signed the VLC in his office in the garage and drove the car off the garage premises. The ad was listed on carzone under the garage name too.

Sponge Bob

Sale of goods Act thereforte applies and is it a BMW garage by the way ??