'Secularism' to blame for Orange Order decline

gurramok

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8126543.stm

bbc wrote:

The Orange Order has blamed an increase in secularism for a sharp decline in its membership in Northern Ireland.

Grand Secretary Drew Nelson said its Christian ethos was one reason behind its membership falling from 76,500 in 1948 to about 35,700 currently.

Mr Nelson said the Order was suffering from the same trend as churches as people turned away from religion.

"For a while now Northern Ireland has been becoming an increasingly secular society," he said.

"As an organisation which encourages our members to be church-going, that has attracted less members," he said.

"Secondly, there's the whole ethos of the state in Northern Ireland - it appears to be leaning somewhat against the Orange Order."

Mr Nelson pointed towards the fact that Order members who were employed by the PSNI had to inform their superiors.

He said this meant many people were put off joining the organisation, which claims to have 100,000 members worldwide.

However, he said despite falling numbers many young people in Northern Ireland were still choosing to join the Orange Order.

"I think if you look a bit closer amongst the Protestant community there's a certain disaffection," he said.

"Young people are feeling a need to join a band or the Orange Order as an activity of Britishness and Protestantism, and also a reaction to what they feel is the establishment in Northern Ireland against them."

Crazy stuff. A sectarian organisation blaming toleration of other religions/non-religions for their decline, you could not make this up!

That establishment they talk about is the Stormont Assembly amongst others where both sides govern the place in mostly harmony which is a good thing yet they see it as against them which means its a 'bad thing' in their eyes.

Is this decline the beginning of the end of the Orange Order?

pablomakaveli

gurramok wrote: »

Is this decline the beginning of the end of the Orange Order?

Hopefully.

DoireNod

"Young people are feeling a need to join a band or the Orange Order as an activity of Britishness and Protestantism, and also a reaction to what they feel is the establishment in Northern Ireland against them."

Surely this is more of an indication of how the young people are being raised? They are more than likely being led to believe this by these self-proclaimed moral beacons of the Orange Order and other similar organisations.

...an activity of Britishness and Protestantism...

I always find this strange. How many mainland Britons would engage in this behaviour? And Protestants around the world don't seem to feel the need to march around with flutes and sashes.

The fact is that the Orange Order is a simply a type of glorified bigot-club.

Can'tseeme

Nah, it's not the end of them. There is still 35k members which is still a large number for an organisation like the OO.

Bottle_of_Smoke

IS it still a rule that an Orange Order member isn't allowed to enter a Catholic building? Or is it service?

I can see that putting a lot of people off. Much more Protestants have much more Catholic friends than they used to, and they probably wouldn't want to join knowing they couldn't attend Weddings/funerals/baptisms of their mates.

There was a thread on PULSE before about why people don't go/join and apparently there was a lot of in-fighting, people being frowned upon if they weren't there all the time etc

gurramok

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

IS it still a rule that an Orange Order member isn't allowed to enter a Catholic building? Or is it service?

Definitely for a service, their members get into trouble attending a funeral if the deceased is of another religion.

A Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist are not allowed to join the OO.

Anyone for a lawsuit?

gurramok

gurramok wrote: »

A Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist are not allowed to join the OO.

Anyone for a lawsuit?

Not defending this organisation, but are they not entitled to exclude on the basis of religion, if they themselves are (or claim to be) a religious organisation or society?

I mean, presumably the Catholic Church have a ban on allowing Buddhist's become Pope. All their Popes so far have been...Catholics...

Not saying it's right, but presume there is some legal exemption for groups based on religion.

gurramok

They are not a church

So which is it, a religious organisation(uphold only the Protestant faith) or a political organisation(uphold the union)?

What happens if i'm a proud British Muslim and want to join to uphold my Britishness?

Religion should stay out of politics, just look at Iran.

junder

gurramok wrote: »

Definitely for a service, their members get into trouble attending a funeral if the deceased is of another religion.

A Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist are not allowed to join the OO.

Anyone for a lawsuit?

why would a catholic, muslim, hindu, atheist, buddhist want to join a christain orginization that celebrates the reformation, kind of runs counter to thier relgious beliefs you would think, what next you going to complaign that womens groups are sexist for not leting men join. Still its nice to see that in the unlikly even that there is united ireland the values and traditions that are important to the unionist community are not going to be respected or toleranted

Graffiti attack on Orange hall
Sectarian graffiti has been daubed on an Orange hall in north Belfast.

Vandals are understood to have targeted Greencastle Orange hall at some stage on Sunday evening.

Slogans including "CIRA" and "KAH" were written on the walls during the incident.

North Belfast MP Nigel Dodds has condemned the "republican bigots" responsible for the attack.

"This is a repeated and long-running sore. Clearly some criminal elements believe that the hall is an easy target for their sectarian law-breaking.

"To daub the hall in Continuity IRA slogans and racist 'Kill All Huns' graffiti demonstrates that the criminals responsible for this attack are blinded by hatred toward the Protestant community in Greencastle and beyond", he said.

"I would urge anyone with information about this disgraceful attack to come forward to the police.

"There is a special obligation upon those in leadership within the nationalist community to encourage co-operation with the forces of law and order to ensure the criminals responsible for this disgraceful attack are brought before the courts", the DUP MP added.

© UTV News

Man jailed for 'sectarian' arson BBC
22 June 2009

A 20-year-old man has been jailed for four years for trying to set an Apprentice Boys hall in Londonderry on fire while 300 people were inside.

Caolan Kavanagh, from Hampstead Park, had already admitted the charge of arson with intent to endanger life at the memorial hall in Society Street. District judge Pat Lynch, said it was "a sectarian act on people from a different community."

Kavanagh was also sentenced to a further two years on probation.

The city's magistrates court heard that Kavanagh was caught on CCTV approaching the hall with an accelerant which he then poured over a door and set alight. An eyewitness told police that as Kavanagh went past her he sniggered and said "smoke them out". CCTV operators then alerted door staff at a bar in Waterloo Street, who detained Kavanagh until the police arrived.

A defence solicitor said Kavanagh had been intoxicated at the time of the attack, and had to address his alcohol problems. He said reports suggested Kavanagh had no deeply ingrained hatred of the other community.

Judge Pat Lynch said that "having emerged from the dark side of the Troubles, no one was to revisit them." He said it was obvious Kavanagh knew people were in the hall and he knew he was endangering their lives.

Orange hall is destroyed by fire Orange hall is destroyed by fire

An Orange hall in County Armagh has been destroyed in an overnight fire.
The Fire and Rescue Service said they were called to the Carrickawilkan Orange hall near Darkley at about 0100 BST on Friday.

Fire crews from Keady, Newtownhamilton and Armagh attended the blaze, but it was completely alight when they arrived.
Fire Commander Martin McStay said it took about an hour to get the fire under control.

His officers were not able to enter the remains of the hall to investigate the cause as the building was too unstable.
The police are now investigating. 'Setback'
Drew Nelson from the Orange Order said that hall was used by a small lodge of about 14 members.

"I think our members will be very, very surprised at what's happened.
"It was burnt down in 1970 and rebuilt, and right through the Troubles there were really just Orange meetings in the hall.

"It was just during this last winter they held a dance in the hall as they've slowly regained confidence and tried to reopen it.
"It's a big setback for the Protestant community in that area," said Mr Nelson.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8084495.stm

Graffiti is daubed on Orange hall An Orange hall has been attacked in County Antrim.

The police have said they have had a report of criminal damage at the hall at Main Street in Rasharkin.

Sectarian graffiti has been daubed on the walls of the hall. It is believed the attack happened at about 0300 BST on Sunday.

The hall has been targeted several times in recent years, including a petrol bomb attack last month.

---

and you say we are the intolerant ones

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

...Still its nice to see that in the unlikly even that there is united ireland the values and traditions that are important to the unionist community are not going to be respected or toleranted

What makes you think it's unlikely? And what values and traditions are these? Marching around wearing a sash in a manner which is provocative to those of the Nationalist community?

and you say we are the intolerant ones

Those events you cited describe actions by individuals and maybe small groups of ill-informed individuals; they are not an indication of the beliefs of the Boards.ie population or the Irish population.

Catholic churches have been attacked frequently in the past by those of the Unionist/Loyalist persuasion so this behaviour is not limited to the attacks on Orange Halls etc as you seem to suggest. We could go on and on arguing that point, but it's not important. The topic at hand here is the dwindling of numbers in the Orange Order.

junder

junder wrote: »

why would a catholic, muslim, hindu, atheist, buddhist want to join a christain orginization that celebrates the reformation, kind of runs counter to thier relgious beliefs you would think

Maybe they'd like to just feel the love, or join in for the craic?

It could become like the cub scouts for an older generation, giving it a contemporary relevance. If only they would just open their minds. And tie knots and sing Cumbaya.

Riskymove

Deleted User wrote: »

Not defending this organisation, but are they not entitled to exclude on the basis of religion, if they themselves are (or claim to be) a religious organisation or society?

I mean, presumably the Catholic Church have a ban on allowing Buddhist's become Pope. All their Popes so far have been...Catholics...

Not saying it's right, but presume there is some legal exemption for groups based on religion.

yes but they allow Budhists to convert so therefore all allowed!!:pac:

You cannot become Prime Minister of England if Catholic either! have not seen any law suits

Riskymove

Riskymove wrote: »

You cannot become Prime Minister of England if Catholic either!

Presume the thinking was they were nervous that someone would land into 10Downing Street with 19 kids...its only a terraced house you know...

futurehope

DoireNod wrote: »

I always find this strange. How many mainland Britons would engage in this behaviour? And Protestants around the world don't seem to feel the need to march around with flutes and sashes.

The fact is that the Orange Order is a simply a type of glorified bigot-club.

There are quite a number of Loyal Orders and Loyalist bands on The UK mainland and indeed further afield. Marches go on all the time, and not just in Scotland or Liverpool either. I guess the media aren't that interested unless there's trouble.

I always find the attitude of certain Irish Nationalists towards The Orange Order the very essence of bigotry. Only question is, is the bigotry religious, ethnic, or political?

futurehope

gurramok wrote: »

Definitely for a service, their members get into trouble attending a funeral if the deceased is of another religion.

A Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, Buddhist are not allowed to join the OO.

Anyone for a lawsuit?

Why would a Catholic wish to join an explicitly Protestant organisation? It would be like a Protestant wanting to join Opus Dey.

futurehope

gurramok wrote: »

They are not a church

So which is it, a religious organisation(uphold only the Protestant faith) or a political organisation(uphold the union)?

What happens if i'm a proud British Muslim and want to join to uphold my Britishness?

Religion should stay out of politics, just look at Iran.

They are primarily a religious organisation, but like all people of faith, their politics is shaped by their religious beliefs.

Should religion stay out of politics? - well I guess The Irish would know, given the fact that for 50 years The RC church was accorded a special position in The Irish constitution - never mind the strong relationship between Irish politicians and The RC hierarchy...

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

Should religion stay out of politics? - well I guess The Irish would know, given the fact that for 50 years The RC church was accorded a special position in The Irish constitution - never mind the strong relationship between Irish politicians and The RC hierarchy...

That doesn't give an opinion on whether religion should be kept out of politics.

I think the dwindling of numbers in the Orange Order does, as it says in the article, has a lot to do with the increasingly secular society that is developing in Europe. I think that an Atheistic Anarchic society is just what we need! Then you can conduct politics reasonably without the shackles of religious indoctrination clouding judgement. :pac:

gurramok

junder wrote: »

why would a catholic, muslim, hindu, atheist, buddhist want to join a christain orginization that celebrates the reformation, kind of runs counter to thier relgious beliefs you would think, what next you going to complaign that womens groups are sexist for not leting men join. Still its nice to see that in the unlikly even that there is united ireland the values and traditions that are important to the unionist community are not going to be respected or toleranted

---

and you say we are the intolerant ones

futurehope wrote: »

Why would a Catholic wish to join an explicitly Protestant organisation? It would be like a Protestant wanting to join Opus Dey.

The catholic, muslim, hindu, atheist, buddhist organisations in Ireland are not political, big difference.

futurehope wrote: »

They are primarily a religious organisation, but like all people of faith, their politics is shaped by their religious beliefs.

Should religion stay out of politics? - well I guess The Irish would know, given the fact that for 50 years The RC church was accorded a special position in The Irish constitution - never mind the strong relationship between Irish politicians and The RC hierarchy...

Short memory there.

The RC church was accorded a special position in The Irish constitution which ended around 1973 if i recall correctly.

Now, has the OO moved on from interfering in the poltical process? A big NO.

They are still stuck in the last century.

futurehope

gurramok wrote: »

The catholic, muslim, hindu, atheist, buddhist organisations in Ireland are not political, big difference.



Short memory there.

The RC church was accorded a special position in The Irish constitution which ended around 1973 if i recall correctly.

Now, has the OO moved on from interfering in the poltical process? A big NO.

They are still stuck in the last century.

A bit like The Irish Nationalist freaks who still fantasise about annexing British Ulster, against the will of those who live there.

Sooooooooooooooooooo last century. :rolleyes:

gurramok

futurehope wrote: »

A bit like The Irish Nationalist freaks who still fantasise about annexing British Ulster, against the will of those who live there.

Sooooooooooooooooooo last century. :rolleyes:

Thats a poltical wish, not a religious wish.

The decline in OO numbers reflects the decreasing wish of NI people seeing themselves as British and/or is it losing the 'Protestant faith to other faiths/athiesm', yes?

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

A bit like The Irish Nationalist freaks who still fantasise about annexing British Ulster, against the will of those who live there.

Sooooooooooooooooooo last century. :rolleyes:

Again, you come on spouting nonsensical 'counter-arguments' probing for a response, further dragging the thread off topic. As a matter of fact, I and the vast majority of people I know in the North wish to see the unification of Ireland, so it's not against my will that those whom you candidly brand 'freaks' seek to obtain Irish liberty. Again, the fact is that Sinn Féin topped recent polls in what was a monumental result.

Can you please refrain from attempting to stir up a response and discuss the dwindling numbers of the Orange Order in the North?

futurehope

gurramok wrote: »

Thats a poltical wish, not a religious wish.

The decline in OO numbers reflects the decreasing wish of NI people seeing themselves as British and/or is it losing the 'Protestant faith to other faiths/athiesm', yes?

Or could it be that people (especially young people) aren't interested in joining religious or political organisations these days.

conchubhar1

people not being a racist homophobic sectarian biggot is the reason for the decline of the orange order


common sense and being an honest, kind human (regardless of gender, sexuality or religion) will be the cause for its ultimate disapearance

futurehope

DoireNod said:

Again, you come on spouting nonsensical 'counter-arguments' probing for a response, further dragging the thread off topic. As a matter of fact, I and the vast majority of people I know in the North wish to see the unification of Ireland, so it's not against my will that those whom you candidly brand 'freaks' seek to obtain Irish liberty.

It's against the will of 82% of 'da north' apparently.;)

Again, the fact is that Sinn Féin topped recent polls in what was a monumental result.

Really. Apart from the fact Unionists were split 3, 4, 5 ways depending on what you see as a Unionist party. I wonder how many of those SF voters tell pollsters about their opposition to a United Ireland? Naughty boys!

Can you please refrain from attempting to stir up a response and discuss the dwindling numbers of the Orange Order in the North?

I tell you what DoireNod, why don't you post what you want to post and I'll post what I want to post and we'll all be happy. :rolleyes:

junder

gurramok wrote: »

The catholic, muslim, hindu, atheist, buddhist organisations in Ireland are not political, big difference.



Short memory there.

The RC church was accorded a special position in The Irish constitution which ended around 1973 if i recall correctly.

Now, has the OO moved on from interfering in the poltical process? A big NO.

They are still stuck in the last century.

so you can't be relgious and political then? moreover i am not surprized there are no political hindu or buddhist groups on this island why would there be, but in Tibet or in India it might a different story i guess its all about context, and can you be really sure that you don't have any miltant islamic groups in the republic of ireland? but please do try and take the orange order to court for not allowing catholics to join it will be an interesting thing to watch, why not have a big protest about it as well get your placards and megaphones out please be our guest after all it will really help boost applications to the orange order.
FYI inregards to England, you would be surprized how fast the orange order is growing, why only a couple of weeks ago i was at a orange parade in the center of southampton.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4554863.stm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5879508839049803145

futurehope

conchubhar1 wrote: »

people not being a racist homophobic sectarian biggot is the reason for the decline of the orange order


common sense and being an honest, kind human (regardless of gender, sexuality or religion) will be the cause for its ultimate disapearance

The Orange Order has black members in Africa and indeed in England, so how are they racist? Can you tell me if The Hibernians have many black members?

You oppose homophobia, could you tell me how The Orange Order's position on gays differs from The RC church?

You oppose sectarianism - could you explain what is sectarian about The Orange Order, as opposed to say The Hibernians, Opus Dey, and other RC groups?

conchubhar1

okay ill leave the first two points


but just becuse other groups are sectarian is not an excuse for the orange order to be

and they are biggoted - despite what other groups are or may be

---

who are the opus dey are related to the opus day?

opus dei - with an i

Scofflaw

futurehope, you don't seem to have learned anything from your recent ban.

warningly,
Scofflaw

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

It's against the will of 82% of 'da north' apparently.;)

I feel that the response to that from dlofnep on the thread on Scottish Independence is sufficient rebuttal. I reckon that most of that vote which you cite (which was from 2008 or last year) would be from the Belfast area too and since that has more people and a larger unionist-biased population than most other places in the North, the results of the poll could be a result of this. I'll let the politicians do their work, you can worry about relatively meaningless polls and I'll hold on to my hope of seeing a unified Ireland in my life-time.

Really. Apart from the fact Unionists were split 3, 4, 5 ways depending on what you see as a Unionist party. I wonder how many of those SF voters tell pollsters about their opposition to a United Ireland? Naughty boys!

Yes, really. The Unionists being split is something the Unionist community will have to deal with. By the way, they are telling of their support for a united Ireland when they vote for Sinn Féin, as it's one of their driving policies.

I tell you what DoireNod, why don't you post what you want to post and I'll post what I want to post and we'll all be happy. :rolleyes:

Would love to and I understand that sometimes you are being facetious, but sadly that's not how internet forums such as boards.ie work. There are rules for forums and one is usually to try to keep the thread on-topic.

oscarBravo

conchubhar1 wrote: »

who are the opus dey are related to the opus day?

opus dei - with an i

Being nit-picky about other people's spelling is usually just annoying. Coming from you, it's utterly breathtaking.

gurramok

junder wrote: »

so you can't be relgious and political then? moreover i am not surprized there are no political hindu or buddhist groups on this island why would there be, but in Tibet or in India it might a different story i guess its all about context, and can you be really sure that you don't have any miltant islamic groups in the republic of ireland? but please do try and take the orange order to court for not allowing catholics to join it will be an interesting thing to watch, why not have a big protest about it as well get your placards and megaphones out please be our guest after all it will really help boost applications to the orange order.
FYI inregards to England, you would be surprized how fast the orange order is growing, why only a couple of weeks ago i was at a orange parade in the center of southampton.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4554863.stm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5879508839049803145

It maybe growing outside NI(whether true or not), the discussion is about inside NI.

Why do you think its declining up north, is it because 'that people (especially young people) aren't interested in joining religious or political organisations these days'?

I think its a bigger awareness of those of the Unionist tradition turning their back on bigotry.