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'Secularism' to blame for Orange Order decline

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    #32
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Comparing anything with the catholic church and saying "are we any worse then they are", is really defeating your argument while making it.

    An impressive feat of linguistics and logic but ultimately unlikely to convince anyone of your point.

    DeV.


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    #33
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    futurehope wrote: »
    I always find the attitude of certain Irish Nationalists towards The Orange Order the very essence of bigotry.
    Well if you consider disgust towards a triumphalist, sectarian organisation to be "bigotry", that's your choice. And it's not just Irish nationalists who are "bigoted" towards it.
    Only question is, is the bigotry religious, ethnic, or political?
    It's anti-bigotry bigotry.


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    #34
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    DoireNod said:
    I feel that the response to that from dlofnep on the thread on Scottish Independence is sufficient rebuttal.

    Really? What, the "Nationalists wet themselves when confronted with a questionnaire theory"? But hey, he may be right.
    I reckon that most of that vote which you cite (which was from 2008 or last year) would be from the Belfast area too and since that has more people and a larger unionist-biased population than most other places in the North, the results of the poll could be a result of this.

    Yes, I'm sure a university research team would do something like that - they wouldn't know how to take a representative sample, would they? :rolleyes:
    I'll let the politicians do their work, you can worry about relatively meaningless polls and I'll hold on to my hope of seeing a unified Ireland in my life-time.

    Yes, hope - a beautiful word, much loved by The Irish...
    Yes, really. The Unionists being split is something the Unionist community will have to deal with. By the way, they are telling of their support for a united Ireland when they vote for Sinn Féin, as it's one of their driving policies.

    So SF's approach to securing a United Ireland is to become paid Crown Ministers? Still, I guess it makes a change from being simple paid informers.


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    #35
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    gurramok wrote: »
    It maybe growing outside NI(whether true or not), the discussion is about inside NI.

    Why do you think its declining up north, is it because 'that people (especially young people) aren't interested in joining religious or political organisations these days'?

    I think its a bigger awareness of those of the Unionist tradition turning their back on bigotry.

    Do you think the day will come when The Irish turn their backs on irrational and bigoted claims on a neighbouring states territory? I mean their main political parties and so many of their citizens (yes, I know, most of them don't really care!). When that happens, The Irish might then be able to investigate other supposed bigots without becoming a laughing stock.


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    #36
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    Dudess wrote: »
    Well if you consider disgust towards a triumphalist, sectarian organisation to be "bigotry", that's your choice. And it's not just Irish nationalists who are "bigoted" towards it.

    It's anti-bigotry bigotry.

    No, I'm sure it's not just The Irish who are bigots as regards The Orange Order. But then again a lot of people are bigoted against The Irish - it doesn't necessarily make it right.


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    #37
    DoireNod
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    futurehope wrote: »
    Really? What, the "Nationalists wet themselves when confronted with a questionnaire theory"? But hey, he may be right.
    That's not what was stated, but whatever.


    Yes, I'm sure a university research team would do something like that - they wouldn't know how to take a representative sample, would they? :rolleyes:
    If you're not taking the opinion of every person in the area of study, then it is, as you say, merely a sample and obviously subject to error.

    Yes, hope - a beautiful word, much loved by The Irish...
    No need to attempt to belittle someone (or indeed a whole nation of people) because they hope. Surely Unionists hope that the union is maintained with the UK?


    So SF's approach to securing a United Ireland is to become paid Crown Ministers? Still, I guess it makes a change from being simple paid informers.
    People have varying opinions on Sinn Féin, just as people have varying opinions of Michael Collins; yours appears to be one of sheer contempt and no matter how much you try to belittle the political entity, it will not take away from the fact that support is gradually growing for them both North and South of the border. Might I add that they are not the only nationalist party. The SDLP also wish to see the unification of Ireland.

    Once again, I don't see how this contributes to the discussion of the growing decline of members in the Orange Order. You're obviously not taking heed of the Moderator's warning.


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    #38
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    I know a few OO guys in Belfast.

    They'd be the first to admit that the organisation has a very middle-class and 'musty' image among the Protestant community up there. Any new-blood they attract tends to be sons of existing members.


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    #39
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    futurehope wrote: »
    Yes, hope - a beautiful word, much loved by The Irish...



    So SF's approach to securing a United Ireland is to become paid Crown Ministers? Still, I guess it makes a change from being simple paid informers.

    Does this come naturally to you or do you have to work at it? Just curious.

    Your username is futurehope What do you hope for? Is there even a glimmer of anything positive?


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    #40
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    The Orange Order is a Protestant Club, whilst that might mean its sectarian in semantic terms, its pretty meaningless. As pointed out, no pope has ever been anything other than a Catholic, doesn't mean they are bigoted(for that reason)

    I personally only have one experience with the OO. Though its probably one more than every ROI OO expert on this thread. I was walking home from Coleraine town toward the Uni one evening and an almighty shower came down, there's a little alcove on the side I was walking past so i jumped in for shelter. Had a bit of a laugh with a few members who were standing there. Heard my accent, asked where I was from (Dublin), continued the chat, no biggotry.

    I'm sure there are plenty of well meaning people in the OO. At least they get kids playing music. The Irish seem to thoroughly enjoy calling it a sectarian organisation and seeing anything go wrong for it. This thread for example, their secretary blames secularism for dwindling numbers, which is certainly some of the reason at least and everyone jumps on him.


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    #41
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    futurehope wrote: »
    Do you think the day will come when The Irish turn their backs on irrational and bigoted claims on a neighbouring states territory?
    Pray tell, how is it irrational? Or are you just being disingenuous?
    I mean their main political parties and so many of their citizens (yes, I know, most of them don't really care!). When that happens, The Irish might then be able to investigate other supposed bigots without becoming a laughing stock.
    Wow... to you, it's only "the Irish" who are the bigots on this island. Do a little research into the history of Northern Ireland - unbiased history by the way...
    futurehope wrote: »
    No, I'm sure it's not just The Irish who are bigots as regards The Orange Order. But then again a lot of people are bigoted against The Irish - it doesn't necessarily make it right.
    So you're not disagreeing that the Orange Order is an organisation comprising hugely bigoted elements?


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    #42
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    futurehope wrote: »
    Do you think the day will come when The Irish turn their backs on irrational and bigoted claims on a neighbouring states territory? I mean their main political parties and so many of their citizens (yes, I know, most of them don't really care!). When that happens, The Irish might then be able to investigate other supposed bigots without becoming a laughing stock.

    Whats that got to do with bigotry?

    Do you understand what bigotry means?
    From dictionary.com..
    big⋅ot⋅ry
      /ˈbɪgətri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [big-uh-tree]
    Use bigotry in a Sentence
    –noun, plural -ries.
    1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
    2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

    Bigotry
    Big"ot*ry\, n. [Cf. F. bigoterie.]

    1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.

    2. The practice or tenets of a bigot

    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:
    I personally only have one experience with the OO. Though its probably one more than every ROI OO expert on this thread. I was walking home from Coleraine town toward the Uni one evening and an almighty shower came down, there's a little alcove on the side I was walking past so i jumped in for shelter. Had a bit of a laugh with a few members who were standing there. Heard my accent, asked where I was from (Dublin), continued the chat, no biggotry.

    Nice story, hope you didn't tell them your religion?!


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    #43
    DoireNod
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭DoireNod


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I'm sure there are plenty of well meaning people in the OO.
    Of course, there is bound to be few, but it doesn't follow that because there are a few nice people in an organisation that the organisation is right in what it does etc.
    At least they get kids playing music.
    To be honest, this is scraping the barrel too. Granted, the encouragement of musical expression is to be commended, but again it doesn't excuse any perceived misgivings that people have for the organisation. For example, the Nazis encouraged children to go on recreational excursions etc. but does that make what the Nazis did right? (I am not comparing the Nazis and the Orange Order by the way, simply making a point!)


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    #44
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    futurehope wrote: »
    Do you think the day will come when The Irish turn their backs on irrational and bigoted claims on a neighbouring states territory?
    We already have. Try to keep up.

    If I have to lock this thread because of predictable back-and-forth petty sniping, there will be repercussions. Think about that before you post, because I won't be entertaining any appeals afterwards.


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    #45
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,900 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    I think that the Orange Order are largely irrelevant. Along with a diminishing membership they have a diminishing influence and diminishing resources.

    As long as there are people, as on here, who have such hatred for them; it will build their relevance and strength.

    And it is quite amusing to see such posters with bigoted attitudes, refusing to even concede that there are some decent people in the Orange Order. All of whom are shouting "down with bigotry" from the rooftops!


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    #46
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    mere membership of the orange order - for me - means you may be a good person but you are still a member of the orange order and there lies the fundamental problem
    yes - you may be good but to me you are tainted by your membership to such an organization


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    #47
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I didn't see anyone refusing to concede that there are good people in the Orange Order. The whole concept of the organisation is repugnant though - look at some of the stunts it has pulled. So while yes, there are no doubt individual members who are good people, the organisation stinks.


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    #48
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Secularism? That and young people in the north probably don't want to be associated with a shower of super uncool crusty auld bastards in stupid hats.


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    #49
    Darragh29
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,097 ✭✭✭Darragh29


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    I know a few OO guys in Belfast.

    They'd be the first to admit that the organisation has a very middle-class and 'musty' image among the Protestant community up there. Any new-blood they attract tends to be sons of existing members.

    Sounds like the GAA! I'm decended from one of the three original founders of the Orange Order. Never been up there and my GG Grandfather turned Papish to marry a dame so don't really know much about the Orange Order, just looking into it now after doing the family tree and discovering the above. It was hard news to break to my old man I have to say!


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    #50
    José Alaninho
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭José Alaninho


    Feel the love from the Orange Order

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZeEnBPAKaE


    Right before the RUC helped force them down the Garvaghy road, batoning the residents off their own streets, by the way.


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    #51
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    paisley saw the light - equal govt and partnership with the nationalist parties


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    #52
    José Alaninho
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭José Alaninho


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    paisley saw the light - equal govt and partnership with the nationalist parties

    Just about balances out the 40 years of hatred and ignorance before then though.


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    #53
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    oh no it doesnt - but he wont go down as hated as others

    he still did a lot of bad - as did others


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    #54
    José Alaninho
    Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭José Alaninho


    futurehope wrote: »
    A bit like The Irish Nationalist freaks who still fantasise about annexing British Ulster, against the will of those who live there.

    Sooooooooooooooooooo last century. :rolleyes:

    Orange troll is orange...


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    #55
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    José Alaninho wrote: »
    Just about balances out the 40 years of hatred and ignorance before then though.

    Are you describing Irish Nationalist hatred and ignorance?


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    #56
    futurehope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭futurehope


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    oh no it doesnt - but he wont go down as hated as others

    he still did a lot of bad - as did others

    Yes, Irish Republicans were an absolute disgrace.


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    #57
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    José Alaninho wrote: »
    Orange troll is orange...

    indeed - the above two posts show this


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    #58
    Lobster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭Lobster


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    indeed - the above two posts show this
    The best thing you can do about trolls is ignore them;) Not on topic anyway!


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    #59
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    paisley saw the light - equal govt and partnership with the nationalist parties

    Yeah. In a context where Northern Ireland remains an inextricable part of the United Kingdom until the Unionists say otherwise. Despite the flailings of its most bigoted fringes, Irish Unionism has secured exactly what it always wanted.


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    #60
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    no - until the majority of northern ireland and ireland as a whole say so


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    #61
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Shall we be seeing a concerted campaign against secularism by the Orange Order to protect itself?

    What has a person of another belief ever done to offend the Orange Order?!


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