'Secularism' to blame for Orange Order decline

futurehope

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Our first president Douglas Hyde was a protestant as well.

Can you explain why The Protestant population of The Republic fell from about 10% to 2% following independence - despite Ireland being such a non-sectarian paradise?

Perhaps you can also explain why The Catholic population of British Ulster actually grew radically despite the supposed hell being imposed on Catholics by The Orange statelet?

Erin Go Brath

It would be a good day for Ireland if the Sectarian Orange Order disappeared into obscurity. The whole raison d'être which is supposed to be a celebration of Protestantism is in reality a thinly disguised bigotted supremacist fest of hatred against RCs. Not disimiliar to a KKK meeting, just replace the white hoods with sashes and bowler hats, and the blacks with catholics.

If the orange order and its supporters stopped this contentious marching through Catholic areas and quit the burning of tricolours with Kill All Taigs and dead Catholics names on them then we can respect their "culture".

Until that day comes I welcome the decline and hopefully the eventual demise of the Orange Order.

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

The Unionist majority seems pretty solid at the moment. 82% of the people in British Ulster oppose a United Ireland even in the long term according to recent opinion polls.

You're still going on about that poll. Just because it was conducted by a university doesn't make it invulnerable to error or even true as an indicator of fact - I and no one I know took part in that poll, so it's not indicative of our desire. The Nationalist community are traditionally less conservative than the unionist community and as such people tend to be divided across a number of solutions to that question. Get over it.

As regards hatred in society, I suspect that will reduce thanks to The PIRA surrender. It was The IRA who bred the hatred.

Here's another one of those completely one-sided comments. See aforementioned '...willingness to ignorance..' post.

futurehope

DoireNod wrote: »

And on another point; whoever claims that unionists will always be the majority in the North is mistaken in my opinion. They can't gerrymander forever

In what way is British Ulster currently gerrymandered?

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

In what way is British Ulster currently gerrymandered?

That's called humour futurehope.

futurehope

DoireNod wrote: »

I believe it's also fair to say that many UVF members also happened to be members of the Orange Order.

Were there any IRA members in The GAA? What about The Catholic Church?

conchubhar1

futurehope wrote: »

In what ways?

politicaly for virtualy 80 years in northern ireland
religiously - still in some instances
culturaly and linguisticaly

no need to continue

junder

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

It would be a good day for Ireland if the Sectarian Orange Order disappeared into obscurity. The whole raison d'être which is supposed to be a celebration of Protestantism is in reality a thinly disguised bigotted supremacist fest of hatred against RCs. Not disimiliar to a KKK meeting, just replace the white hoods with sashes and bowler hats, and the blacks with catholics.

If the orange order and its supporters stopped this contentious marching through Catholic areas and quit the burning of tricolours with Kill All Taigs and dead Catholics names on them then we can respect their "culture".

Until that day comes I welcome the decline and hopefully the eventual demise of the Orange Order.

there are 1000's of parades the length and breadth of this island with only a tiny faction going anywere near catholic areas, one of the biggest orange parades actully happens in the ROI and is warmly welcomed by the residents of Rossnowlagh. Moreover the Orange Order does burn tricolours either with KAT or with the names of dead catholics on them since the orange order does not in fact orginize any bonfires. I posted some news articules of orange halls that have been attacked, the most recent one which was dubbed in 'Kill all Huns' graffti, funny how not one of you condemned that

conchubhar1

futurehope wrote: »

Were there any IRA members in The GAA? What about The Catholic Church?

one is a sporting org the other a church

neither of which the uvf or OO are or were

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

Were there any IRA members in The GAA? What about The Catholic Church?

I guess it's likely, but the organisation itself (and its goals) is not religious in the way that the UVF identified themselves as 'heavily armed Protestants'. The IRA's campaign was never against Protestants, but there were likely to be protestant casualties, since the UVF, having declared war on the IRA, were a group of 'heavily armed Protestants'.

futurehope

conchubhar1 wrote: »

politicaly for virtualy 80 years in northern ireland
religiously - still in some instances
culturaly and linguisticaly

no need to continue

What happened (or didn't happen) for 80 years (or indeed for 800) is neither here nor there - I'm talking about the present.

I would be interested to see how Catholics are discriminated against religiously (and indeed culturally and linguistically) today - do you have any further details?

Bottle_of_Smoke

DoireNod wrote: »

The IRA's campaign has always been the ejection of a foreign force. It was actually the UVF who took it upon themselves to declare war on the IRA and they declared the Catholic community as fair game... As far as the unionist/loyalist community being 'attacked so much' - this is simply because the UVF identified themselves as 'heavily armed Protestants' and were unionist or loyalist in political alignment.

I believe it's also fair to say that many UVF members also happened to be members of the Orange Order.

No arguments. It breaks down as a legitimate response to what I said regarding the topic of this threadthough. Whilst the IRA were fighting what they considered a "foreign force", many of the people they attacked were from the unionist community. They had family in the unionist community. This community was being attacked no matter what the reasoning of the attackers. that's why I used it as an example of why people joined the Orange Order

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

I posted some news articules of orange halls that have been attacked, the most recent one which was dubbed in 'Kill all Huns' graffti, funny how not one of you condemned that

No one condoned it either. Stop it with this righteous indignation.

DoireNod

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No arguments. It breaks down as a legitimate response to what I said regarding the topic of this threadthough. Whilst the IRA were fighting what they considered a "foreign force", many of the people they attacked were from the unionist community. They had family in the unionist community. This community was being attacked no matter what the reasoning of the attackers. that's why I used it as an example of why people joined the Orange Order

I was aware of that. Point taken

futurehope

conchubhar1 wrote: »

one is a sporting org the other a church

neither of which the uvf or OO are or were

The point is that the presence of UVF members within The Orange Lodges (if this happens), does not necessarily mean The Orange Order endorses The UVF. In the same way that IRA members within The Catholic Church, does not necessarily mean that The Catholic Church endorses The IRA.

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

No one condoned it either. Stop it with this righteous indignation.

still was not condemned now was it, you all happy enough to spout whatever rubbish you like about the orange order and yet say nothing about attacks against it, one could almost take the silence as support for the attacks against the orange order, but at least you agree that its 'righteous' indignation

futurehope

DoireNod wrote: »

I guess it's likely, but the organisation itself (and its goals) is not religious in the way that the UVF identified themselves as 'heavily armed Protestants'. The IRA's campaign was never against Protestants, but there were likely to be protestant casualties, since the UVF, having declared war on the IRA, were a group of 'heavily armed Protestants'.

I see what you mean. The problem is that if someone puts a gun to your head and blows your brains out - it doesn't really matter to you whether he did it for God or Country, does it?

By the way, you need to be careful about your use of the terms Catholic and Protestant. In many cases they have little to do with religious belief and are more like ethnic labels. This has become increasingly so over the years. Personally I would try to avoid both terms if at all possible - using Nationalist/Unionist instead (unless I really meant Catholics/Protestants).

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

I guess it's likely, but the organization itself (and its goals) is not religious in the way that the UVF identified themselves as 'heavily armed Protestants'. The IRA's campaign was never against Protestants, but there were likely to be protestant casualties, since the UVF, having declared war on the IRA, were a group of 'heavily armed Protestants'.

tell that to the families of the protestants murdered by the PIRA for no other reason then they happened to be protestant. 'Protestant casualties' must make murder more palatable to reduce it to such anonymous terms

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

still was not condemned now was it, you all happy enough to spout whatever rubbish you like about the orange order and yet say nothing about attacks against it, one could almost take the silence as support for the attacks against the orange order, but at least you agree that its 'righteous' indignation

That's your problem then. Do you even know what the term righteous indignation means? You're trying to play the victim in every post, completely disregarding any other take on the topic. I could easily say that since you don't mention injustices against the Nationalist community and didn't condemn it, that 'one could almost take the silence as support' for injustices committed on the nationalist communities.

junder

futurehope wrote: »

The point is that the presence of UVF members within The Orange Lodges (if this happens), does not necessarily mean The Orange Order endorses The UVF. In the same way that IRA members within The Catholic Church, does not necessarily mean that The Catholic Church endorses The IRA.

Lets not forget as well that there were roman catholic priests involved in the IRA, could this be taken as endorsment by the catholic church or simply thos priests invloved taken it upon themslves to join the PIRA

gurramok

junder wrote: »

Blown them up, murdered them, burnt down thier halls (almost on a weekly basis) and generally waged a sectarian campaign against its members both directly and indirectly in what was called the 'Troubles' .
So explain to me if there ever was a united ireland how the majorty of the comments on this thread eqate to respecting unionists culture and traditions?

Nice sidestep. I was talking about modern NI where secularism is seen as a danger to the OO, that is they see other religions as a danger to themselves

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Could you point out exactly where? I'm not seeing it.

"The Orange Order has blamed an increase in secularism for a sharp decline in its membership in Northern Ireland."
""For a while now Northern Ireland has been becoming an increasingly secular society," he said."

Its common sense that they see secularism as dangerous to their goals.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It's a word that can have different contexts, in the sense Nelson uses it in that article, it's just coming across to me as "less religious". Look at what he actually said

"Mr Nelson said the Order was suffering from the same trend as churches as people turned away from religion."

Word is pretty meaningful to me, the dictionary agrees.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No. But I'm not going to start attacking them for things they're not saying

Good.

""Secondly, there's the whole ethos of the state in Northern Ireland - it appears to be leaning somewhat against the Orange Order."

Proof in the pudding above that their political influence is waining and they hate that.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I think they were used as part of the tensions by the unionist loyalist side, I think they gained members because Unionists felt they needed to stand together as their community was being attacked so much. As they don't need to do this now membership will decline. I do agree they should have no political influence though, much as I don't think any religious organisation should have political influence.

They used working class loyalists for violence in their pursuit of their goals, their membership is mostly middle class, if only working class NI Protestants could open their eyes

Though, Nelson doesn't say anything about political influence in that article....

See above, the 'establishment is against them'

the_dark_side

pablomakaveli wrote: »

We have a centre for the battle of the Boyne in the Republic which the Unionists visit and there is an OO lodge in Donegal. While the unionists are still opposed to the Irisih language in the North.

But your right that both sides have been very intolerant of each other at times.

There are at least 17 Orange Lodges in Donegal, along with a good number of Mason Meeting houses and Black Preceptary meeting houses. Every year, about 10,000 Orange men march in Rossnowlagh (Donegal) on the week before the 12th of July... so as they are free to go in to the North on the 12th and march.

There is never any trouble, and the Catholic community dont have a problem with it. Catholic businesses do very well out of it in fact.

There is also an Ulster Scotts head office in Raphoe, Donegal, where they also have a language centre. The Ulster Scotts tradition is engrained in the culture of the border counties, its a large part of the history of the area.

The majority of the catholic community in Donegal do not have an issue with the OO, even though the OO have many issues with the RC faith. There has always been a strong cross community spirit and long may it continue. (I was raised a catholic btw)

conchubhar1

futurehope wrote: »

What happened (or didn't happen) for 80 years (or indeed for 800) is neither here nor there - I'm talking about the present.

I would be interested to see how Catholics are discriminated against religiously (and indeed culturally and linguistically) today - do you have any further details?

well nationalists as a whole and some protestant unionists are being denied an irish language act......

culturaly look at responses to the gaa, and support for the irish national soccer side or indeed flying an irish flag at northern irish matches

flags in general

all today and ongoing

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

tell that to the families of the protestants murdered by the PIRA for no other reason then they happened to be protestant. 'Protestant casualties' must make murder more palatable to reduce it to such anonymous terms

You seem to be missing my point. Make murder more palatable? What?!

Originally posted by futurehope
I see what you mean. The problem is that if someone puts a gun to your head and blows your brains out - it doesn't really matter to you whether he did it for God or Country, does it?

Did the UVF do what they did for God?

By the way, you need to be careful about your use of the terms Catholic and Protestant. In many cases they have little to do with religious belief and are more like ethnic labels. This has become increasingly so over the years. Personally I would try to avoid both terms if at all possible - using Nationalist/Unionist instead (unless I really meant Catholics/Protestants).

Thanks for the heads up. I wasn't using it in ethnic terms if you read my post.

conchubhar1

junder wrote: »

Lets not forget as well that there were roman catholic priests involved in the IRA, could this be taken as endorsment by the catholic church or simply thos priests invloved taken it upon themslves to join the PIRA

as were several protestant sects and the british govt......

lest you forget

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

That's your problem then. Do you even know what the term righteous indignation means? You're trying to play the victim in every post, completely disregarding any other take on the topic. I could easily say that since you don't mention injustices against the Nationalist community and didn't condemn it, that 'one could almost take the silence as support' for injustices committed on the nationalist communities.

As it happens i have condemned just such attacks on other threads so i have not been 'silent'.

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

As it happens i have condemned just such attacks on other threads so i have not been 'silent'.

Fair play to you, but the point still stands. Just because someone is 'silent' over an issue doesn't mean you can say that they are condoning it, as you seem to suggest.

conchubhar1

good - those attacks deserved condemning

Can'tseeme

The OO is becoming more and more irrelevant firstly because religion on a whole is dying on it's feet. Secondly, the north is becoming a more and more inclusive society, younger people are learning that nationalists/catholics are not born with two heads, have nothing to hate about them and are just the same as them. So basically the secular ethos of the order isn't revelant to modern thinking.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Can'tseeme wrote: »

The OO is becoming more and more irrelevant firstly because religion on a whole is dying on it's feet. Secondly, the north is becoming a more and more inclusive society, younger people are learning that nationalists/catholics are not born with two heads, have nothing to hate about them and are just the same as them. So basically the secular ethos of the order isn't revelant to modern thinking.

While I agree 100% with everything other than the final sentence, don't you think someone being non-religious would prevent them even considering joining a religious organisation?