'Secularism' to blame for Orange Order decline

luckyfrank

getz wrote: »

i think that if i had lived in northern ireland all my life ,i would have had a siege mentality which happens when you feel that another country is always threatening you,i know my wife who is from gib has a big dislike for the spanish, change takes time

Northern Ireland is a province of the Ulster an irish province

The 6 counties that constitute Northern Ireland also are a province of the United kingdom

Northern Ireland is not a country

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

Yes. I'm not excusing it per se, rather simply making the point that it happens everywhere. In the case of the attacks on the halls of the Orange Order - they appear to be natural knee-jerk responses to the actions (triumphalist marches, inciting vitriolic feeling etc.) of the organisation and therefore, are to be expected. This vandalism could also be mindless and the product of a lack of recreational outlets, rather than a concerted campaign of vandalism directed against the Orange Order - I wonder what other buildings or businesses were victim to vandalism during this time? Why are you confused? It's not complicated.

So you don't regard these attacks as sectarian?

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

So you don't regard these attacks as sectarian?

I never said that I didn't believe they were sectarian. I merely suggested that they may not have been driven by 'a concerted campaign of vandalism directed against the Orange Order' and could have been the result of ignorance or 'a lack of recreational outlets'. You can never know for sure.

By posting that 'article' about an attack on an Orange Hall, were you suggesting that vandalism on Orange Halls is a contributing factor to the decline of numbers within the Orange Order? I'm curious.

jimmmy

DoireNod wrote: »

I never said that I didn't believe they were sectarian.

So do you not think they are the same as for example an attack on a Catholic church or a synagogue ?

ilkhanid

DoireNod wrote: »

Yes. I'm not excusing it per se, rather simply making the point that it happens everywhere. In the case of the attacks on the halls of the Orange Order - they appear to be natural knee-jerk responses to the actions (triumphalist marches, inciting vitriolic feeling etc.) of the organisation and therefore, are to be expected. This vandalism could also be mindless and the product of a lack of recreational outlets, rather than a concerted campaign of vandalism directed against the Orange Order - I wonder what other buildings or businesses were victim to vandalism during this time? Why are you confused? It's not complicated.

That use of words "natural knee-jerk" has the effect-intended or not-of justifying or at least excusing the vandalism.I doubt the attacks were mindless (would an electricity sub-station, municipal shed or school in the same location have been attacked, I wonder) any more than the equivalent attacks on GAA clubhouses are. There is no excuse.

DoireNod

jimmmy wrote: »

So do you not think they are the same as for example an attack on a Catholic church or a synagogue ?

See previous post:

Originally Posted by DoireNod
Yes. I'm not excusing it per se, rather simply making the point that it happens everywhere.

Originally Posted by ilkhanid
That use of words "natural knee-jerk" has the effect-intended or not-of justifying or at least excusing the vandalism.

I didn't exuse it:

Originally Posted by DoireNod
...they appear to be natural knee-jerk responses to the actions (triumphalist marches, inciting vitriolic feeling etc.) of the organisation and therefore, are to be expected.

Just because you acknowledge that actions are to be expected, doesn't mean you excuse them.

Originally Posted by ilkhanid
I doubt the attacks were mindless...

Nevertheless, the point I make is that they could be. I see vandalism everyday, everywhere.

...There is no excuse.

For vandalism in any situation? In the event that vandalism is the result of a lack of recreational outlets, I believe there is an excuse. Children in the area where I grew up and live, for example, have absolutely no recreational stimulation. There is no soccer club or GAC - the closest outlet is either in the Derry City centre or Eglinton (which are both half an hour bus journeys away). These children recently burned fences near the local football pitch(which is rarely used, since there are no clubs), and smashed up and then burned a small digger that was in the area.

Apologies, I know this is off topic.

j1smithy

I think every one would agree that the vandalism is wrong. I also think that discussing vandalism of OO halls in this thread is wrong;)

The vandalism is an expression of hatred that exists in both communities. No right minded individual could condone it and most would believe it is counter productive to the nationalist cause. If anything it makes the OO stronger, helping them maintain a "siege" mentality, and encourages new membership.

Mindless agression is nothing new in NI. It happens on both sides. I point you to this thread in After Hours http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055612834

There are countless other examples of intolerence. NI is an odd place, even after 11 years of the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement

T runner

Richard wrote: »

No, that's why I said "some months" and that the name change in 1927 was "belated".
The Stormont parliament voted to opt out of the Free State, yes. But in terms of being part of the UK, Northern Ireland never left. The rest of Ireland did.

But they did leave (as all Ireland did) into a free state. Youve admitted that there was a 32 county free state which was presumably not part of the UK. Ulster politicians then chose to opt out of the free state so yes all of Ireland (unpatitioned) left the UK and then The Northern politicians voted to opt out which resulted in the partition of Ireland.

The Unionist politicians were responsible for the partition of Ireland.

j1smithy

T runner wrote: »

But they did leave as all Ireland did into a free state. Youve admitted that there was a 32 county free state which was presumably not part of the UK. They then chose to opt out of the free state so yes all of Ireland (unpatitioned) left the UK and then The Northern politicians voted to opt out which resulted in the partition of Ireland. So yes the entire country left the UK.

Thats just semantics and I don't think there was ever much doubt that NI wouldn't be leaving the UK.

An interesting question to ask is if the republic had allowed the allies to use its ports would the UK government have followed through on its promise to unite ireland after the war?

T runner

j1smithy wrote: »

Thats just semantics and I don't think there was ever much doubt that NI wouldn't be leaving the UK.

Take it up it with the poster who claimed that NI never left the UK.
I think the facts of who wanted and carried out partition are somewhat more than semantics.

An interesting question to ask is if the republic had allowed the allies to use its ports would the UK government have followed through on its promise to unite ireland after the war

Ofcourse not. They never promised it they hinted at it. Nothing was mentioned to the Unionists by Churchill ofcourse. It demonstrates again how misguided their loyalty to Britain is.

All Churchill could offer was NI. The fact that he never made a strong promise was him leaving himself out when it came time for renaging after the war.

nayorleck114

The Orange tradition is a part of Ireland and its Identity. The Flag of the Republic is a representation of this. (GREEN WHITE AND ORANGE) Peace between the traditions. However as a Catholic I find it hard to warm to the orange tradition with its core anti catholic views. However I respect them. As regards to them marching in Nationalist areas as it was their traditional route, well I think they should be more open minded to the residents. I have no problem with them marching, but marching to make a point in prodominatly catholic areas seems foolish. The Orange order goes back 2 or 3 hundred years, however catholism in Ireland goes 1000 years further back. Orangeism:- the ideology which promotes and protects Protestant domination over Catholics in Ireland. So which such and ideology I think it hard for them to Justify march in mainly catholic areas.

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

I never said that I didn't believe they were sectarian. I merely suggested that they may not have been driven by 'a concerted campaign of vandalism directed against the Orange Order' and could have been the result of ignorance or 'a lack of recreational outlets'. You can never know for sure.

By posting that 'article' about an attack on an Orange Hall, were you suggesting that vandalism on Orange Halls is a contributing factor to the decline of numbers within the Orange Order? I'm curious.

Interestingly enough even sinn fein regard these attacks as sectarian

Sinn Fein: Attacks on Orange halls must stop
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-14387005.html
Monday, 6 July 2009

Police are today investigating an attack on an Orange Hall that plays a central role in the Order's July 12 parades in Belfast. Paint was thrown at the recently renovated Orange Hall at Clifton Street near the city centre.

In a separate incident, sectarian slogans were daubed on an Orange Hall in Rasharkin, Co Antrim. A spokesman for the Order said: "The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland has condemned vandalism attacks on two Orange Halls over the weekend.

"Sectarian slogans were daubed on the Orange Hall in the centre of Rasharkin.

"This is the fourth time this year that the hall has been the target for attack.

"Paint was also thrown at the front of Belfast Orange Hall, at Carlisle Circus.

"Extensive work was recently carried out to enhance the appearance of the hall, which is the location for the start of the Belfast Twelfth Parade."

The attack on the Orange Hall at Clifton Street was reported to police on Friday at 10.30pm and they have appealed for information on the incident. Ballymoney Traditional Unionist Voice (TUV) councillor Audrey Patterson condemned the Rasharkin attack.

"These cowardly attacks have been rightly viewed by the minority community of the village as an assault upon the entire Protestant population," he said.

"Orange Halls are at the very heart of the community, not just during the marching season but all year round.

"Attacks such as these display the blatant sectarianism of republicans and their hatred for all things associated with loyalism or Protestantism." The councillor appealed for anyone with information to contact police. Sinn Fein representatives said all attacks on Orange halls must stop.

The party's North Belfast MLA Caral Ni Chuilin hit out at the attack on Clifton Street Orange Hall. "This attack has no justification behind it other than blatant sectarianism.

"Let me make it clear- sectarianism has no place in north Belfast," she said.

"The Orange hall has just had restoration work on the front carried out as part of the arterial route scheme which is designed to improve the appearance of our neighbourhoods.

"The removal of security shutters and cages on the building was a move in the right direction.

"Given the work that was done, to have paint spattered over the front of the building for purely sectarian reasons is completely unacceptable and those behind the attack have no right to do this."

Belfast City Council is upgrading the building as part of a £30,000 scheme. Councillor William Humphrey, Chairman of the council's Development Committee, added his condemnation of the attack.

"The restoration of the Belfast Orange Hall - a building of great historical and architectural merit - is a key element of our 'Renewing The Routes' programme in this area," he said.

"Obviously, we are now going to have to make good the damage sustained in this attack: this will have implications not only for this particular project, but it will have a knock-on effect for other projects in the area, as we will have to find the money from other budgets.

"The renovation of shop fronts further along the Crumlin Road, together with a number of environmental improvement schemes, have been warmly welcomed by the local community and it is a real shame that this mindless attack by a small minority, who do not represent that community, has damaged not only the Hall but also potentially these other projects, which have shown this part of Belfast in such a positive light."

Sinn Fein North Antrim representative Daithi McKay, meanwhile, said sectarian incidents must end in Rasharkin.

"Rasharkin has seen a series of sectarian incidents over the past months with both communities being affected. This is the fourth attack on Rasharkin Orange Hall this year," he said.

"Let me be clear these sectarian attacks serve nobody's interest and people want them to end. They do nothing but break down community relations in the area.

"Any attacks of this nature need to be stopped immediately and those behind the attack need to realise there is no support whatsoever from the vast majority of both sections of our communities."

As for why i list these attacks 1 is to show that these attacks happpen almost weekly, why is this so important it easy just to think of the orange order as nothing more then parades but the orange plays and important social function in protestants community's, more so in rural Protestant community's were the Orange hall doubles as a function hall, youth club and meeting place for groups other the the orange hall, alot of halls house the entire history of the local lodge which when destroyed is irreplaceable. the destruction of an orange hall can literally rip the heart out of a community and each time a orange hall is attacked its not seen just as destruction of property but as an attack on the Protestant community as a whole.

junder

T runner wrote: »

j1smithy wrote: »

Take it up it with the poster who claimed that NI never left the UK.
I think the facts of who wanted and carried out partition are somewhat more than semantics.



Ofcourse not. They never promised it they hinted at it. Nothing was mentioned to the Unionists by Churchill ofcourse. It demonstrates again how misguided their loyalty to Britain is.

All Churchill could offer was NI. The fact that he never made a strong promise was him leaving himself out when it came time for renaging after the war.

In 1920 Lloyd George secures the passage of a Government of Ireland Act which puts a new spin on the proposal passed into law in 1914. The partition of Ireland is to be accepted as a necessary compromise, but both southern Ireland (twenty-six counties) and northern Ireland (the six counties of northeast Ulster) are now to have their own parliaments with limited devolved powers. Each parliament is to send twenty members to a joint Council of Ireland, which may at any time merge the two without requiring further legislation from Westminster.

The proposal meets neither Nationalist wishes for a united Ireland, nor the Unionist desire to remain an undifferentiated part of the United Kingdom. But both sides decide to take part in the elections held in May 1921.




odt





In southern Ireland the old Nationalist party, under John Dillon, refrains from opposing Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein therefore wins 124 of the 128 seats (the other four being reserved for the strongly Unionist Trinity College in Dublin). These 124 Sinn Feiners now assemble as a reconstituted Dáil. However this is not the southern parliament provided for in Lloyd George's act, and the IRA continues to commit terrorist acts in Sinn Fein's republican cause.

In northern Ireland forty Unionists and twelve Nationalists are elected. Although the Unionists object in principle to this parliament, it is formally opened by George V (with a powerful speech urging reconciliation) in June 1921.


odu





With this much achieved, Lloyd George offers a truce to the Sinn Fein leader, Eamon de Valera, and invites him to London with a view to working out a treaty.

The truce comes into effect on 11 July 1921. Violence in southern Ireland immediately ceases. De Valera sends representatives, led by Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins, to the peace talks in London. They agree to terms which fall short of the nationalist demand for a united Ireland, but which nevertheless offer independence to the twenty-six counties. As the Irish Free State they are to have Dominion status, in the formula pioneered by Canada. Republican sensibilities are assuaged by owing allegiance to the British crown only as head of 'the British Commonwealth of Nations'.


odv





The Anglo-Irish Treaty is ratified by the British parliament in December 1921, but it immediately runs into problems in Ireland. De Valera repudiates it, arguing that his envoys have agreed to terms beyond their brief. In January, after a bitter debate in the Dáil, Griffith and Collins carry the motion for their treaty by a narrow margin of 64 votes to 57. De Valera immediately resigns as president of the Dáil. Griffith is elected in his place.

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa72#ixzz0KaudglLc&D

futurehope

T runner wrote: »

Ofcourse not. They never promised it they hinted at it. Nothing was mentioned to the Unionists by Churchill ofcourse. It demonstrates again how misguided their loyalty to Britain is.

All Churchill could offer was NI. The fact that he never made a strong promise was him leaving himself out when it came time for renaging after the war.

I don't think you'll ever make a professional historian my friend - you lack contextual analysis. At the time Churchill 'offered' Ulster to De Valera, the entire UK was involved in a fight for national survival with the might of Nazi Germany. The UK's back was literally to the wall. Of course Churchill was prepared to consider any and all steps in order to continue the fight for freedom including sacrificing one of the country's limbs to achieve that goal. It doesn't, of course, mean that The Irish Free State could have actually taken and held Ulster - then as now.

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

Interestingly enough even sinn fein regard these attacks as sectarian

Why wouldn't they? Would you expect otherwise?

As for why i list these attacks 1 is to show that these attacks happpen almost weekly...

That's an exaggeration.

...why is this so important it easy just to think of the orange order as nothing more then parades but the orange plays and important social function in protestants community's, more so in rural Protestant community's were the Orange hall doubles as a function hall, youth club and meeting place for groups other the the orange hall, alot of halls house the entire history of the local lodge which when destroyed is irreplaceable. the destruction of an orange hall can literally rip the heart out of a community and each time a orange hall is attacked its not seen just as destruction of property but as an attack on the Protestant community as a whole.

That's understandable I suppose, but my point is that these attacks aren't exclusive to the Orange Order and that as a result of the nature of the organisation, they are to be expected. The excessive flying of the Union Jack during marching season (never mind the marching itself!) in mixed areas for example, can be construed as an aggressive statement to an outsider, especially Irish nationalists. I was in Limavady today and I couldn't believe the amount of flags flying - you wouldn't even get that in a predominantly republican society, maybe it's a statement of insecurity?
Incidentally, I was in an Orange Hall which was used as a youth club when I was a kid and to me it's just a building, but I understand your concern.

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

I don't think you'll ever make a professional historian my friend - you lack contextual analysis.

I didn't know you needed to be a historian to have an opinion. Are you a professional historian futurehope?

It doesn't, of course, mean that The Irish Free State could have actually taken and held Ulster - then as now.

Ulster isn't a correct term, stop hi-jacking it! It seems to have held onto Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan pretty well. Also, if the Irish Free State was able to use the industry of areas like Derry and Belfast, it might have generated a fair amount of income, so you never know. It's common knowledge that the industrial nature of the 6 counties was one of the reasons why the UK wished to keep them and ports at Derry and Belfast were also helpful during the War.

oscarBravo

This isn't a "history of Northern Ireland" thread, let's try to stay somewhat on-topic.

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

Why wouldn't they? Would you expect otherwise?


That's an exaggeration.
That's understandable I suppose, but my point is that these attacks aren't exclusive to the Orange Order and that as a result of the nature of the organisation, they are to be expected. The excessive flying of the Union Jack during marching season (never mind the marching itself!) in mixed areas for example, can be construed as an aggressive statement to an outsider, especially Irish nationalists. I was in Limavady today and I couldn't believe the amount of flags flying - you wouldn't even get that in a predominantly republican society, maybe it's a statement of insecurity?
Incidentally, I was in an Orange Hall which was used as a youth club when I was a kid and to me it's just a building, but I understand your concern.

The flags flying from lamposts as with bonfires are nothing to do with the orange order they do not put them there as for parading i thought the objection was for them parading through republicans areas (which does not happen very often) now its 'mixed' areas. Tell me this what consitues a mixed area is there for example a percentage that would define and area as mixed would it be acceptbale for you if the orange order paraded in an area that was 60% protestant?

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

The flags flying from lamposts as with bonfires are nothing to do with the orange order they do not put them there

Who puts the flags there, the community? Maybe not officially the Order itself, but it's definitely in association. In Limavady there was also a huge union jack was flying outside the Orange Hall which seemed very over-the-top.

...as for parading i thought the objection was for them parading through republicans areas (which does not happen very often) now its 'mixed' areas.

I think the term 'mixed' is used fairly, as there are parades that take place in mixed areas, that are met with opposition from people - and yes the parades which march through predominantly nationalist areas are frowned upon for obvious reasons too.

Tell me this what consitues a mixed area is there for example a percentage that would define and area as mixed would it be acceptbale for you if the orange order paraded in an area that was 60% protestant?

I think you're clutching at straws. Not every protestant is an Orangeman or a unionist or loyalist. I really don't see the reason why they feel the need to parade to begin with - I don't know of many other organisations or such in Ireland that do this kind of thing on the scale that the Orange Order does. It's a huge statement.

junder

DoireNod wrote: »

Who puts the flags there, the community? Maybe not officially the Order itself, but it's definitely in association. In Limavady there was also a huge union jack was flying outside the Orange Hall which seemed very over-the-top.
I think the term 'mixed' is used fairly, as there are parades that take place in mixed areas, that are met with opposition from people - and yes the parades which march through predominantly nationalist areas are frowned upon for obvious reasons too.

I think you're clutching at straws. Not every protestant is an Orangeman or a unionist or loyalist. I really don't see the reason why they feel the need to parade to begin with - I don't know of many other organisations or such in Ireland that do this kind of thing on the scale that the Orange Order does. It's a huge statement.

What part of the orange order does not put flags up on lamposts do you not understand, yes they are put up by the community and has nothing to do with the orange order either offically or unoffically in the same way bonfires are not built by the orange order. As for clutching at straws you are correct a very small minorty of protestants may not be orange men, unionists or loyalists but guess what there are some catholics that enjoy watching the parades but niether group make up any significant numbers, as for mixed areas the village, sandy row and donegall pass areas are classified as mixed areas by the housing executive so does that mean your going to want them banned there to and the only mixed areas that are offended by the orange parades would be prodominatly republican. As for marching, republicans seem to like it to espically in british citys across the uk, they also even have there own flute bands who buy up second hand loyalists flute band uniforms and stick new badges on them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QB14_StBoL8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cvZqAEKB6Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B24Ps29CBHo

as i said seems we are not the only ones that like marching

Bottle_of_Smoke

DoireNod wrote: »

Who puts the flags there, the community? Maybe not officially the Order itself, but it's definitely in association. In Limavady there was also a huge union jack was flying outside the Orange Hall which seemed very over-the-top.
I think the term 'mixed' is used fairly, as there are parades that take place in mixed areas, that are met with opposition from people - and yes the parades which march through predominantly nationalist areas are frowned upon for obvious reasons too.

The one in Coleraine always has a Union Jack, it's not a big deal really its the flag of the union. And I also wouldn't see a big deal with a building having a tri-colour all year round either. I'm well aware there's plenty on both sides who'd have issues with each flag. I'm not going to go to that level though, as far as flags are concerned - live and let live

I think you're clutching at straws. Not every protestant is an Orangeman or a unionist or loyalist. I really don't see the reason why they feel the need to parade to begin with - I don't know of many other organisations or such in Ireland that do this kind of thing on the scale that the Orange Order does. It's a huge statement

You know what he means. Protestants/Protestant areas aren't generally known to take offence to Orange Parades! And lets face it, could well turn into quite a tourist attraction(if not already) when the troubles die down to a negligible level

DoireNod

junder wrote: »

As for marching, republicans seem to like it to espically in british citys across the uk, they also even have there own flute bands who buy up second hand loyalists flute band uniforms and stick new badges on them...

...as i said seems we are not the only ones that like marching

I didn't say that republicans didn't march what I did say was:

Originally Posted by DoireNod
I don't know of many other organisations or such in Ireland that do this kind of thing on the scale that the Orange Order does. It's a huge statement.

Even so, those videos include almost exclusively flute bands and not whole organisations. Significant marches that take place in the nationalist community that you may have heard of include the Bloody Sunday commemoration march, but that is solemn rather than triumphalist.

Originally Posted by Bottle_of_Smoke
The one in Coleraine always has a Union Jack, it's not a big deal really its the flag of the union. And I also wouldn't see a big deal with a building having a tri-colour all year round either. I'm well aware there's plenty on both sides who'd have issues with each flag. I'm not going to go to that level though, as far as flags are concerned - live and let live

Fair enough, I accept that, but the point I was making was that the degree to which the typically unionist flags are flown appears to be much more over-the-top. Even the red-white-and-blue painting of the kerb stones in loyalist areas seems to be more prevalent than the green-white-and-orange in republican areas in my opinion. In the Bogside, there are a few Tricolours flying, but when I was in Limavady, they were on almost every single lamp-post and on the Limavady road coming from Derry, the Orange Order flags were flying on every lamp-post. I wonder who put those up?

And lets face it, could well turn into quite a tourist attraction(if not already) when the troubles die down to a negligible level

This is possible as remnants war and suffering always become tourist attractions! I don't think it would be a big hit with nationalists though! :P

Bottle_of_Smoke

DoireNod wrote: »

Fair enough, I accept that, but the point I was making was that the degree to which the typically unionist flags are flown appears to be much more over-the-top. Even the red-white-and-blue painting of the kerb stones in loyalist areas seems to be more prevalent than the green-white-and-orange in republican areas in my opinion. In the Bogside, there are a few Tricolours flying, but when I was in Limavady, they were on almost every single lamp-post and on the Limavady road coming from Derry, the Orange Order flags were flying on every lamp-post. I wonder who put those up?

Well you're right, the kerbstones do seem to be blue/red dominated.Still, not something that would bother me unless I lived there as I think any kind of paint on kerbs looks tacky, worse when it fades during winter months.

I didn't see any of those Orange Order flags in Coleraine when I moved there last August but in some part every pole had a union jack/scottish flag or a British Ulster/NI flag on it. Seemed very over the top to me, fine for around the 12th but a load of raggy condition flags everywhere just looked simply awful, still its not something I'd blame the Orange Order for, no reason to believe they put them all up.

Can'tseeme

Personally I honestly don't see the attraction of watching orangemen walk or flute bands playing and I think that is another reason younger people from a protestant background have turned away from it.

T runner

junder wrote: »

As for why i list these attacks 1 is to show that these attacks happpen almost weekly, why is this so important it easy just to think of the orange order as nothing more then parades but the orange plays and important social function in protestants community's, more so in rural Protestant community's were the Orange hall doubles as a function hall, youth club and meeting place for groups other the the orange hall, alot of halls house the entire history of the local lodge which when destroyed is irreplaceable. the destruction of an orange hall can literally rip the heart out of a community and each time a orange hall is attacked its not seen just as destruction of property but as an attack on the Protestant community as a whole.

Futurehope has stated that the Orange Order's "raison d'etre" is opposition to catholicism. Given that a definition of sectarianism is opposition to another sect, it is worrying that the Orange Order plays such an integral part in Protestant life. It is hardly surprising the high levels of anti catholic and anti-nationalist sentiments that seem to be bred into young protestants emanating from comunities that have such organisations at its heart.

I do not buy that an attack on an orange hall is an attack on the entire protestant community.

If an equivalent organisation was set up exclusively for catholics for the purpose of "opposition to protestantism" in all its forms and it was attacked I am sure it would not be viewed as an attack on the entire catholic community.

An equivalent example might be a group of black guys who beat up a white guy because he is a known racist. Compare this to another group of black guys who beat up a white guy beause he is white.

I would equate the former to an attack on an orange lodge and the later to an attack on a catholic or protestant church or synagogue.

Both incidents are wrong but they are not the same thing.

As for the secularism being responsible for a decline in teh Orange order I would suggest that yes, a drop in interest about religion would mean a drop in interest for a group like the orange order.

oscarBravo

T runner wrote: »

...it is worrying that the Orange Order plays such an integral part in Protestant life.

...

I do not buy that an attack on an orange hall is an attack on the entire protestant community.

I think you've contradicted yourself.

futurehope

T runner wrote: »

Futurehope has stated that the Orange Order's "raison d'etre" is opposition to catholicism.

That's right - Catholicism, NOT individual Roman Catholics. It is the theology of The RC church which is opposed - never any individual Roman Catholic. Of course, this is the ideal and like all organisations The Orange Order or individual members can fall short of this ideal.

Can'tseeme

futurehope wrote: »

That's right - Catholicism, NOT individual Roman Catholics. It is the theology of The RC church which is opposed - never any individual Roman Catholic. Of course, this is the ideal and like all organisations The Orange Order or individual members can fall short of this ideal.

Do you think that the 11th night bonfires of burning anything catholic, irish or nationalist do more to ignite these ideas of opposition or indeed push it to levels of hatred towards individual catholics, nationalists, anything irish?

futurehope

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Do you think that the 11th night bonfires of burning anything catholic, irish or nationalist do more to ignite these ideas of opposition or indeed push it to levels of hatred towards individual catholics, nationalists, anything irish?

I can understand hatred of Irish Nationalism, as it was Nationalists who launched an indiscriminate murder campaign against the people of Ulster and elsewhere. I can also understand hatred of The ROI, as it used The IRA to fight a proxy war in Ulster in order to achieve it's predatory goals. As regards Catholics, although I totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for, I utterly reject any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals. After all, there were Catholics in The RUC, UDR, and British army right through 'the troubles' and very brave men they were.

DoireNod

futurehope wrote: »

I can understand hatred of Irish Nationalism, as it was Nationalists who launched an indiscriminate murder campaign against the people of Ulster and elsewhere.

Sounds like you're trying to pass that off as fact, when in actuality, it's a matter of opinion. As a matter of fact, however, Nationalists did not launch 'an indiscriminate murder campaign' against the people of Ulster (or Northern Ireland for that matter) - The IRA and several other republican groups launched a campaign of Irish liberation primarily against the British state and then loyalist paramilitaries et al took it upon themselves to declare war on the IRA, targetting those in the predominantly Catholic Nationalist areas. Perhaps you are misinterpreting the facts?

I can also understand hatred of The ROI, as it used The IRA to fight a proxy war in Ulster in order to achieve it's predatory goals.

How is this so? I once heard someone claim that the reason the Irish tricolour is burnt at loyalist bonfires is 'because of the past injustices perpetrated by the Irish state'. I still don't understand that claim.

As regards Catholics, although I totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for, I utterly reject any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals. After all, there were Catholics in The RUC, UDR, and British army right through 'the troubles' and very brave men they were.

Do you 'utterly reject attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals' on the basis that there were some in the RUC, UDR and British Army? If so, I find that strange. I hate how some people fail to see that the conflict in the North was not a religious one and rather ideological.