'Secularism' to blame for Orange Order decline

Can'tseeme

futurehope wrote: »

I can understand hatred of Irish Nationalism, as it was Nationalists who launched an indiscriminate murder campaign against the people of Ulster and elsewhere. I can also understand hatred of The ROI, as it used The IRA to fight a proxy war in Ulster in order to achieve it's predatory goals. As regards Catholics, although I totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for, I utterly reject any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals. After all, there were Catholics in The RUC, UDR, and British army right through 'the troubles' and very brave men they were.

I see...thanks for that futurehope, makes perfect sense now. Hope the bonfires are stacked high and burn long for you.

T runner

oscarBravo wrote: »

I think you've contradicted yourself.

Not at all. The orange order does play an integral part in protestant life but the orange order and the protestant community are seperate things.

These are attacks on the orange order because of its sectarian nature.
This is independant of its relationship with the entire protestant community.
If the Orange order played a smaller role in community life but still continued its other activities the attacks would most likely occur none the less.

futurehope wrote: »

That's right - Catholicism, NOT individual Roman Catholics. It is the theology of The RC church which is opposed - never any individual Roman Catholic. Of course, this is the ideal and like all organisations The Orange Order or individual members can fall short of this ideal.

That is the theory, and the orange order as a rule has fallen short of this ideal. Its no coincidence that the orange order was prevalent initially in county Armagh where the rival populations are most closely matched.
This showed the Orange orders goal of keeping Catholics (individual or entire population) down as a favoured method of opposing Catholocism.

futurehope wrote: »

I can understand hatred of Irish Nationalism, as it was Nationalists who launched an indiscriminate murder campaign against the people of Ulster and elsewhere.

You dont differentiate between "Irish Nationalism" and "Irish Nationalists" the way you do with "Catholics" and " Catholicism" I see.

I can also understand hatred of The ROI, as it used The IRA to fight a proxy war in Ulster in order to achieve it's predatory goals.

That is not true. If you actually believe that you have been severely misled.

As regards Catholics, although I totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for,

As a christian how can you totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for? What about the things the catholic church stands for in common with your church? That can hardly be an honest reflection of your attitude?

I utterly reject any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals. After all, there were Catholics in The RUC, UDR, and British army right through 'the troubles' and very brave men they were.

I dont understand your point. Are you suggesting that the condition for you rejecting "any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals" relies upon some catholics being members of the organisations you outlined?

If there were no catholics in these organisations would you no longer reject attacks on "completely innocent Catholic individuals"?

junder

T runner wrote: »

Not at all. The orange order does play an integral part in protestant life but the orange order and the protestant community are seperate things.

These are attacks on the orange order because of its sectarian nature.
This is independant of its relationship with the entire protestant community.
If the Orange order played a smaller role in community life but still continued its other activities the attacks would most likely occur none the less.




That is the theory, and the orange order as a rule has fallen short of this ideal. Its no coincidence that the orange order was prevalent initially in county Armagh where the rival populations are most closely matched.
This showed the Orange orders goal of keeping Catholics (individual or entire population) down as a favoured method of opposing Catholocism.



You dont differentiate between "Irish Nationalism" and "Irish Nationalists" the way you do with "Catholics" and " Catholicism" I see.


That is not true. If you actually believe that you have been severely misled.



As a christian how can you totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for? What about the things the catholic church stands for in common with your church? That can hardly be an honest reflection of your attitude?





I dont understand your point. Are you suggesting that the condition for you rejecting "any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals" relies upon some catholics being members of the organisations you outlined?

If there were no catholics in these organisations would you no longer reject attacks on "completely innocent Catholic individuals"?

how nice of you to tell us what our culture is

junder

A Twelfth transformation as city aims for a carnival feeling
Wednesday, 8 July 2009

A carnival atmosphere and the opening of shops for the Twelfth celebrations will attract more people into Belfast city centre, the Orange Order has said.

As part of Belfast Orangefest, the Battle of the Boyne annual parade in the city centre will be complemented by an array of street entertainment on July 13.

The Orange procession will pass through the city centre between 10am and 12pm, with the city centre shops opening for the first time at 12.30pm and 4.30pm.

Lampposts will be adorned with banners and an information leaflet has been produced jointly by Belfast Orangefest and Belfast City Centre Management.

It will outline details of the procession route, shop opening times, transport arrangements and on-street entertainment.

Street performance shows will also take place throughout the city centre.

Among the international acts to entertain the public are The Von Trolley Quartet from Australia, Mario, Queen of the Circus from the United States, and The Strangelings who will present The Gaiety Engine.

Translink will also be running a reduced bus and train service.

Andrew Irvine, Belfast City Centre Manager, said a lot of work went into the event during the last nine months.

“We have been pleased to facilitate a true partnership between Orangefest and Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce.

“This setting provides an ideal environment for the city’s retailers to open their business and enjoy high levels of footfall.

“While this is the first time that Belfast Chamber of Trade & Commerce has asked its members to open for business on the Twelfth, some 80% of city centre retailers have committed to opening.

“I do believe that over the period of the day there is something for everyone and all the ingredients for a great family day out.”

The police said it will be working with parade organisers and partner agencies to take a “robust approach” to underage and on-street drinking this summer

Superintendent Peter Loughins, who heads up the alcohol strategy, said: “This year we will again be working to ensure that everyone, whether they are attending parades or not, can enjoy their activities safely and peacefully.”

William Humphrey of the Orange Order said he was confident that this year’s event will attract more visitors to the city centre.

He also said all the bodies and agencies involved plan to meet following the event to discuss further developments for next year.

The event is supported by the European Regional Development Fund as part of the Belfast Peace and Reconciliation Action Plan which aims to develop shared cultural space in the city.

futurehope

DoireNod said:

How is this so? I once heard someone claim that the reason the Irish tricolour is burnt at loyalist bonfires is 'because of the past injustices perpetrated by the Irish state'. I still don't understand that claim.

The IRA were merely attempting to implement The Irish constitution.

Do you 'utterly reject attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals' on the basis that there were some in the RUC, UDR and British Army? If so, I find that strange. I hate how some people fail to see that the conflict in the North was not a religious one and rather ideological.

No, I utterly reject attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals, because they are completely innocent. I too saw the conflict as one of nationality, not religion, so your point above is completely lost on me.

futurehope

T runner said:

You dont differentiate between "Irish Nationalism" and "Irish Nationalists" the way you do with "Catholics" and " Catholicism" I see.

No, Nationalism is primarily of this world and can be fought with the tools of this world. Catholicism can only really be fought spiritually (although it does have a hand in this world).

As a christian how can you totally reject The Catholic Church and all it stands for? What about the things the catholic church stands for in common with your church? That can hardly be an honest reflection of your attitude?

Oh, but it is. Catholicism takes on the form of a church, but it is a false church. This to me is primarily a spiritual issue and not to be confused with any 'good works' a church may be involved in. If you really are interested in WHY Catholicism is apostate, then I suggest you search the web - there is a huge mass of information out there on this issue.

I dont understand your point. Are you suggesting that the condition for you rejecting "any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals" relies upon some catholics being members of the organisations you outlined?

No, I reject "any attacks upon completely innocent Catholic individuals", because they are completely innocent.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

how nice of you to tell us what our culture is

That comment has got nothing to do with T runner's post. He was answering futurehope's reasoning on burning anything catholic or Irish on 11th night bonfires.

Tarzan007

oscarBravo wrote: »

We already have. Try to keep up.

If I have to lock this thread because of predictable back-and-forth petty sniping, there will be repercussions. Think about that before you post, because I won't be entertaining any appeals afterwards.

Coming from one of the main culprits on the forum for back-and-forth petty sniping that's really something ! Your a clown oscarBravo, a total clown. Now ban me please !!!

daithi666

Just thought I would give my opinion on this having lived in the North for all of one week.

I've found the show of colour on lampposts to be quite intimidating and quite strange to me. I know it's just probably part of the culture there but I also think it must be as a result of insecurities.

I was walking down Sandy Row the other day and saw a bonfire of pallets being prepared probably higher than a 2 story house with a tricolour on top.

I think the local council should ban all flags on all public property except when authorised, including the tricolour. It's disrespectful to use our national flag as a way of laying scent. If you're nationalist the best thing you can do for yourself and your country is to be modest, yet proud of your culture. Practise it.... What's the saying: 1 man practising is better than 50 men preaching.

And finally, is secularism the result of OO's decline? Imho, partially. It's very simplistic to say it's totally due to that. From the few people of protestant backround I've talked to they seem very progressive and level headed even in the midst of all that colour shown on the streets which is really refreshing. I think they see the OO for what it really is and as the majority of humans are good they decide to have nothing to do with it...

I've always wondered who puts the flags up? They seem to pop out of nowhere overnight...

Lobster

daithi666 wrote: »

If you're nationalist the best thing you can do for yourself and your country is to be modest, yet proud of your culture.

Well said, and goes for both sides.

The burning of either flag is a terrible insult to the people they represent and should be banned completely.

Frelance

futurehope wrote: »

You can indeed be kicked out of The Orange Order, but only for specific itemised reasons. Associating with Roman Catholics is definitely not one of them.

Wrong.. My mums partner was kicked out of the Orange Order for having a relationship with a catholic. He was explicityly told they didnt like the company he kept and was no longer welcome.

Cjoe

Frelance wrote: »

Wrong.. My mums partner was kicked out of the Orange Order for having a relationship with a catholic. He was explicityly told they didnt like the company he kept and was no longer welcome.

And what would be his view on the orange order now if you dont mind me asking?

Lobster

Frelance wrote: »

Wrong.. My mums partner was kicked out of the Orange Order for having a relationship with a catholic. He was explicityly told they didnt like the company he kept and was no longer welcome.

Yes I agree, I had a similar experience which I won't go into here

T runner

futurehope wrote: »

T runner said:



No, Nationalism is primarily of this world and can be fought with the tools of this world. Catholicism can only really be fought spiritually (although it does have a hand in this world).

Nationalism is a concept. If you are going to define a concept by the way some of the people who purport to represent the organisation behave then you must define orangeism as hatred of catholics.

Oh, but it is. Catholicism takes on the form of a church, but it is a false church.

That is your own very unsubstantiated (and insulting) opinion.

This to me is primarily a spiritual issue and not to be confused with any 'good works' a church may be involved in.

Spiritually the Catholic church believes that Jesus Christ is the saviour.
As you reject everything the Catholic church stands for you must also reject Jesus Christ?

I believe your defining yourself as in opposition to everything Catjolocism stands for is not healthy or realistic. You have a lot more in common with the catholicism than with Judaism or Muslim never mind a religion with a completely different God or philosphy. I read about the Great Apostacy where some churches believe others have strayed (Anglicicm, Orhodoxism but particularly Roman Catholicism). They used some quotes from the bible to rationalise this.

Im not religious myself but it seems that more tolerance and less self righteousness is called for between all these churches.

If you really are interested in WHY Catholicism is apostate, then I suggest you search the web - there is a huge mass of information out there on this issue.

I am also interested in the attitude that some protestants hold towards Catholics particularly as to why protestants fear to me in a minority in a country with a Catholic majority?
I dont believe it's an issue of nationality. The reason given by Unionists for their unwillingless to be bound to an Irish Free State was religion not nationality.

In NI Your religion seems to drive which country you want to be part of: not the other way around. Therefore the question is one of religion unfortunately.



11

pablomakaveli

Here's an interesting article i found where the Orange Order leader claims they are facing ethnic cleansing.

Seems a bit over the top and sensationalist tbh.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090713/tuk-orangeman-ethnic-cleansing-claim-f858358.html

sceptre

Tarzan007 wrote: »

Coming from one of the main culprits on the forum for back-and-forth petty sniping that's really something ! Your a clown oscarBravo, a total clown. Now ban me please !!!

oscarbravo's probably above banning people merely for acting like a petty child in an insulting way.

I, however, am not. Up to yourself whether you regard the ban as being a user-request or a penalty for insulting stupidity, the result is the same. Politeness is cheap, insults are expensive.

conchubhar1

decline? - hopefuly this turns into a quick death

maybe people on here should read a history book - one that goes further back than 1921, 1800, 1690 etc etc

christs sake

Frelance

Cjoe wrote: »

And what would be his view on the orange order now if you dont mind me asking?

Apathy tbh, His friends from the OO ignored him after he was kicked out, This pissed him off at first but he got over it. Nowadays he wonders why he joined in the first place.

conchubhar1

as we all wonder the same - why would anyone join in the first place

Nodin

In other countries it seems more like the Masons. I think they even join the Paddies day parade in Canada (but am open to correction on that one).

Cjoe

Frelance wrote: »

Apathy tbh, His friends from the OO ignored him after he was kicked out, This pissed him off at first but he got over it. Nowadays he wonders why he joined in the first place.

I suppose to feel part of something. Im guessing he has english or scotish heritage.

I dont see anything wrong with respecting and remembering your heritage. But these guys are celebrating something which was detrimental to the majority in Ireland. It re-inforced protestant rule which put the majority of Irish on a lower tier. I dont know why they cant remember the great protestant irish people who have played such signifacant rolls in irish history.

Im sure they are happy with last nights rioting by repbulicans. Honestly what can you expect.

Cjoe

"They displayed the worst possible face of Northern Ireland - a face of bigotry, sectarianism and intolerance that is not representative of the vast majority of people who have moved on and embraced a peaceful future."

That was from the PSNI constable on last nigths rioting.
He was talking about the republican rioters. I found this ironic to be honest. Its only the republican rioters that are the bigots it seems. No dobting they are but when you have 500000 people out supporting the OO you have to wonder are there a few bigots involved there too maybe!!!????

seamasbeag

Futurehope. The OO is a grossly sectarian organisation. If you took the constitution of the OO ,removed the word "Papist" and substituted any other pejorative term such as "******" or "Chink" the OO would be banned. The purpose of the OO is to maintain Protestant/Unionist domination of NI society by promoting anti catholic bigotry and the belief that NI is somehow inherently Protestant and Unionist. It is universally accepted now that the unionist administration in the north managed a systematic process of discrimination and gerrymandering. Every cabinet member of every government since partition was an orangeman. The marching season is the outward visible demonstration of protestant domination. Thats why its so important to the OO to march where it likes when it likes and thats why catholic residents are offended. It is the failure of the media to properly analyse catholic objections to parades that make them appear petty or mischevious instead of heartfelt and based on painful bitter experience.