Irish Debt Clock?

Degsy

annabellee77 wrote: »

Well it was mentioned above, but you're right........ blame lies squarely at their door and the Irish per usual are too busy b*tching and turning on each other to actually do anything about it.

Absolutely.the cozy cartel of Fianna fail and its supporters in the property industry and banking combined with governmental incompetence has caused all this.
Fianna fail should never have been allowed to get a stranglehold oin this country in the forst place,they've done nothing but improve life for themselves and thier hangers-on and fcuck everybody else.
Anybody who has read the book about Charles Haughy "The Boss" would realise the country has been run by nothing but a gang of crooks for years.

Darragh29

Degsy wrote: »

Absolutely.the cozy cartel of Fianna fail and its supporters in the property industry and banking combined with governmental incompetence has caused all this.
Fianna fail should never have been allowed to get a stranglehold oin this country in the forst place,they've done nothing but improve life for themselves and thier hangers-on and fcuck everybody else.
Anybody who has read the book about Charles Haughy "The Boss" would realise the country has been run by nothing but a gang of crooks for years.

Yeah but what are we prepared to do about it as a constituency of voters??? FU*K ALL!!! We should be thrashing the place.

annabellee77

Degsy wrote: »

Absolutely.the cozy cartel of Fianna fail and its supporters in the property industry and banking combined with governmental incompetence has caused all this.
Fianna fail should never have been allowed to get a stranglehold oin this country in the forst place,they've done nothing but improve life for themselves and thier hangers-on and fcuck everybody else.
Anybody who has read the book about Charles Haughy "The Boss" would realise the country has been run by nothing but a gang of crooks for years.

Degsy.....I could've written your post myself......we're on the same page myself.....if everyone else would cop the f**k on and realise it's their incompetence that have led us here.
Like you say, they did (DO) nothing but improve life for themselves and thier hangers-on and fcuck everybody else! (Oh they make me so angry!:mad:)

dan719

dan719 wrote: »

No one is asking you to give a how new pay scale for the profession. Why not give a single figure 'for a nurse working in intensive care afterr graduating say five years ago and working since.' How much do you feel this test case should be paid? it's a simple question.

Ok its quite complicated to give exact figures, but an intensive care nurse would earn about 40k per year before tax, this would be about 3k more than a normal staff nurse as intensive care nurses get paid more. But after 30 years the same nurse would only be on about 50k per year. Now that 40k in the public sector is less than someone in the private sector gets due to the pension levy.

I would say 50k after 5 years and incrementing up to about 65k over the years, but not managment.

Now nurse managers are very underpaid. A nurse manager(who would report to the director of nursing(matron)) organizing all the nursing staff, or nursing support staff in a hospital would earn about 65k before tax. In the private sector with the hours, stress and responsibility 100k would be the least they would earn in a similar job.

annabellee77

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah but what are we prepared to do about it as a constituency of voters??? FU*K ALL!!! We should be thrashing the place.

That's one big problem in this country, the "ah sure" attitude.......the Irish are all mouth and no action..... If we could deal with this pathetic apathy mindset there is in this country it would be a step in the right direction.... cant see it happening anytime soon though .... Just look at these boards, all pointing the finger at each other and bickering over who has this/should have that...... No point in a few, everyone needs to act....

thelordofcheese

annabellee77 wrote: »

Degsy.....I could've written your post myself......we're on the same page myself.....if everyone else would cop the f**k on and realise it's their incompetence that have led us here.
Like you say, they did (DO) nothing but improve life for themselves and thier hangers-on and fcuck everybody else! (Oh they make me so angry!:mad:)

If only it were so stupidly black and white. irish businesses have done more on their own to screw themselves and us by extension than "de gubberment", but feel free to wheel out that pinata.

Darragh29

annabellee77 wrote: »

That's one big problem in this country, the "ah sure" attitude.......the Irish are all mouth and no action..... If we could deal with this pathetic apathy mindset there is in this country it would be a step in the right direction.... cant see it happening anytime soon though .... Just look at these boards, all pointing the finger at each other and bickering over who has this/should have that...... No point in a few, everyone needs to act....

+1, I'm ashamed of my Irish nationality and I mean that. I'm ashamed to be from a country of people who will take a stand for absolutely nothing. Our forefathers ran the British out of this country. They fought TB, famine, poverty, tenements, plague, and we can't even deal with two dozen wasters who have wrecked our country through corruption and greed.

annabellee77

thelordofcheese wrote: »

If only it were so stupidly black and white. irish businesses have done more on their own to screw themselves and us by extension than "de gubberment", but feel free to wheel out that pinata.

Fianna Fáil supporter one assumes?

thelordofcheese

annabellee77 wrote: »

Fianna Fáil supporter one assumes?

Only because you're lazy.

You can't lobby constantly for a free and deregulated market and then cry foul when it all goes wrong.

SEPT 23 1989

annabellee77 wrote: »

Fianna Fáil supporter one assumes?

surely they dont exist anymore

dvpower

annabellee77 wrote: »

That's one big problem in this country, the "ah sure" attitude.......the Irish are all mouth and no action..... If we could deal with this pathetic apathy mindset there is in this country it would be a step in the right direction.... cant see it happening anytime soon though .... Just look at these boards, all pointing the finger at each other and bickering over who has this/should have that...... No point in a few, everyone needs to act....

Pot calling the kettle black, I think.

Have a look at your some of own wonderful contributions to this thread for examples of pointing the finger and bickering:

"if everyone else would cop the f**k on"
"the Irish are all mouth and no action"
"Irish per usual are too busy b*tching and turning on each other "
"The stupidity on here by some is actually astounding at times"
"I'm laughing my derriere off at OP claims that Public Servants are to blame for the recession etc etc. Any idiot knows that's not the case
Go back to school"
"oh I dunno why I'm bothering...... teaching online to unknown masses ain't my forté - or my preference"
"If you knew anything you'd know I couldn't access this site if I was."
"Advice - don't go trolling without knowing proper facts."

thelordofcheese

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

surely they dont exist anymore

at this point i'd vote FF just to spite people who think that "oh you're a Fianna Fáil supporter" constitutes an intelligent response.

annabellee77

dvpower wrote: »

Pot calling the kettle black, I think.

Have a look at your some of own wonderful contributions to this thread for examples of pointing the finger and bickering:

"if everyone else would cop the f**k on"
"the Irish are all mouth and no action"
"Irish per usual are too busy b*tching and turning on each other "
"The stupidity on here by some is actually astounding at times"
"I'm laughing my derriere off at OP claims that Public Servants are to blame for the recession etc etc. Any idiot knows that's not the case
Go back to school"
"oh I dunno why I'm bothering...... teaching online to unknown masses ain't my forté - or my preference"
"If you knew anything you'd know I couldn't access this site if I was."
"Advice - don't go trolling without knowing proper facts."

Wow!! Talk about making an effort to go through someones posts!

I'm not blaming anyone on here for the problems in the country at the moment. It's not the general worker by and large (thats a whole other thread though). I was making the point that the public in general in this country tend to turn on each other rather than looking where we should. Can't make that point without criticising something. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to write on a thread like this without anyone expressing an opinion (which I have) and not everyone's gonna like it.
I don't like some opinions and I've said so. (Am sure they care little.)
Some won't like mine. (I care little.)
It's an internet forum. What do you expect.

Dinter

The worst case scenario is the country reverts back to where we were before a succession of Fianna Fail governments built and then subsequently squandered the State's largesse. Reading about the impending public spending cuts, tax hikes, mass emigration and mass unemployment I imagine it won't a very pleasant place to revisit.

The Celtic Tiger period was like a very nice holiday from the grinding poverty that Ireland usually suffers.

For the moment we need to stop whinging. The boom is gone and hopefully we all got something from it (apart from negative equity). The ability to get up, dust yourself down and look to the future without wallowing in begrudgery and resentment is the only thing that will make the next couple of years manageable. Oh yeah and stop voting for the status quo!!

Darragh29

annabellee77 wrote: »

Wow!! Talk about making an effort to go through someones posts!

I'm not blaming anyone on here for the problems in the country at the moment. It's not the general worker by and large (thats a whole other thread though).
It would be IMPOSSIBLE to write on a thread like this without anyone expressing an opinion (which I have) and not everyone's gonna like it.
I don't like some opinions and I've said so. (Am sure they care little.)
Some won't like mine. (I care little.)
It's an internet forum. What do you expect.

Every man and woman who is standing on Irish soil today is responsible for letting this situation worsen. Just today Cowen comes out and says that unemployment will smash through 500,000 people on the dole by the end of the year and it will continue to rise next year. Every person of voting age who tolerates this approach to managing a country is responsible for this situation we are in.

SEPT 23 1989

Dinter wrote: »

The worst case scenario is the country reverts back to where we were before a succession of Fianna Fail governments built and then subsequently squandered the State's largesse. Reading about the impending public spending cuts, tax hikes, mass emigration and mass unemployment I imagine it won't a very pleasant place to revisit.

The Celtic Tiger period was like a very nice holiday from the grinding poverty that Ireland usually suffers.

For the moment we need to stop whinging. The boom is gone and hopefully we all got something from it (apart from negative equity). The ability to get up, dust yourself down and look to the future without wallowing in begrudgery and resentment is the only thing that will make the next couple of years manageable. Oh yeah and stop voting for the status quo!!

and we will do much better in major football tournaments
so its not all bad:)

annabellee77

Darragh29 wrote: »

Every man and woman who is standing on Irish soil today is responsible for letting this situation worsen. Just today Cowen comes out and says that unemployment will smash through 500,000 people on the dole by the end of the year and it will continue to rise next year. Every person of voting age who tolerates this approach to managing a country is responsible for this situation we are in.

Fair point. You're right.

Lack of accountability is a huge factor here (in many areas not just politics) and the answer here lies with the electorate.

Darragh29

annabellee77 wrote: »

Fair point. You're right.

Lack of accountability is a huge factor here (in many areas not just politics) and the answer here lies with the electorate.

If we gave the slightest iota of a fu*k about ourselves, our children or our country, we would be out on the streets and we wouldn't come off the streets until this government had fallen. Everything Brian Cowen has touched since he got a ministry has been a complete disaster. He ran out of Health claiming it was like Angola and had every sector of the health service on strike before he left. No matter what this man has touched, it has been an unmitigated disaster, yet somehow we think he will be able to lead the country out of the crisis it is now in, despite evidence every single hour of every day, to the contrary. Either we are all stupid or we are all cowards, I fear it is the latter...

Dinter

annabellee77 wrote: »

Lack of accountability is a huge factor here (in many areas not just politics) and the answer here lies with the electorate.

Almost on a par with lack of foresight.

thelordofcheese

Darragh29 wrote: »

If we gave the slightest iota of a fu*k about ourselves, our children or our country, we would be out on the streets and we wouldn't come off the streets until this government had fallen. Everything Brian Cowen has touched since he got a ministry has been a complete disaster. He ran out of Health claiming it was like Angola and had every sector of the health service on strike before he left. No matter what this man has touched, it has been an unmitigated disaster, yet somehow we think he will be able to lead the country out of the crisis it is now in, despite evidence every single hour of every day, to the contrary. Either we are all stupid or we are all cowards, I fear it is the latter...

I assume after the peoples glorious revolution jobs will magically appear and everything will be sweetness and light?

Cool, sign me up.

Milky Moo

Does the toll on the clock ever go down like or is it constantly being driven up?don't loan repayments ever get factored in?

Note: the answer to these questions may result in me hiding under my bed

ScumLord

Dinter wrote: »

The worst case scenario is the country reverts back to where we were before a succession of Fianna Fail governments built and then subsequently squandered the State's largesse.

I wouldn't even give them that credit. We where a country in the right place at the right time. The world was experiencing a boom time and we just so happened to get our oar in, Ireland was in such a good position any fool of a party could have done the deal.

Darragh29

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I assume after the peoples glorious revolution jobs will magically appear and everything will be sweetness and light?

Cool, sign me up.

We have to start somewhere. Don't forget how much money we are paying to run a parliment! We haven't got a big ask here, just let us live in peace and give us opportunities to work hard and leave us at it.

If the government can't provide the relatively low level of ledership that is required to provide those things to the country, then this government should get off the f*cking pot and stop lying to us. This government are too job creation what Shane Mc Gowan is to sobriety.

My name is URL

easyeason3 wrote: »

I'm not in the public sector. I worked in it previously & saw first hand exactly what goes on.
98% of people I worked with could not be faulted so that is why it annoys me so much when I hear people painting all of the public sector with the one brush.

And they didn't have a bigger part than any of the rest of us in the economic downturn.

Mass dismissals will never happen because each & every public servant will strike together, regardless of department, which will mean little or no vital services provided.

Are you taking the piss? Of course the individuals that work in the public sector are decent people.

That's a non-issue. Decent people get laid off every day.

Mass dismissals will never happen because they'll all strike...?!!

Is that the best reason we have for keeping overstaffed departments? That if we try to change that, they'll all hold the country to ransom.

Pretty weak argument there for somebody trying to stick up for them

cop on to yourself ffs

thelordofcheese

Darragh29 wrote: »

We have to start somewhere. Don't forget how much money we are paying to run a parliment! We haven't got a big ask here, just let us live in peace and give us opportunities to work hard and leave us at it.

If the government can't provide the relatively low level of ledership that is required to provide those things to the country, then this government should get off the f*cking pot and stop lying to us. This government are too job creation what Shane Mc Gowan is to sobriety.

Yeah, your plan seem to entirely hinge on riding a wave of dissatisfaction with the government to the shores of wellnowwhat land.

Also, i find it funny you think that small government and lack of regulation will get us out of this mess, seeing as the exact same lack of regulation got us into this mess.

Darragh29

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Yeah, your plan seem to entirely hinge on riding a wave of dissatisfaction with the government to the shores of wellnowwhat land.

Also, i find it funny you think that small government and lack of regulation will get us out of this mess, seeing as the exact same lack of regulation got us into this mess.

What we need is from government is leadership, imagination and courage. It's not a huge ask but you'll find it exceptionally lacking amongst corrupt individuals such as Fianna Fail members who have been pursuing an agenda all of their own in recent years in association with builders, developers and other such vested interests.

dvpower

And while the recession continues, we continue to give pay rises to public servants. A full pay freeze, including all increments and promotions is required.

Pay for the average Irish public sector worker was €50,598 per annum in March 2009, up by 3.4 per cent from €48,932 in March 2008

If that wasn't bad enough, we continue to add numbers to the public service. We need a recruitment embargo.

CSO figures show that the total number of public sector workers rose to 371,200 by the end of March 2009. This compared with 368,300 in March 2008, an increase of 0.8 p.c.

givyjoe81

annabellee77 wrote: »

Who said I'm a public servant??? If you knew anything you'd know I couldn't access this site if I was.

"very comfortable" eh....... Daddy a banker????:rolleyes:

And "could see this country soon enough resemble and anarachic thrid world country"
PMSL:D........I so have to send the link to this thread on to people to give em a laugh on a Wednesday!!

It's spelt 'anarchic' BTW........

Now come off it, you dont really think he's comfortable because he's a banker do you? This notion that all 'bankers' are somehow living a life of luxury is just ignorance being perpetuated all over this site. Do you know anyone that works in a bank by any chance, i can assure you the average worker, particuarly those front of shop, have had to deal with brainless drones giving them dogs abuse for the wrongdoings of a few senior executives/management.

My own sister saw the years of shares she had earned turned practially worthless by the this mess, i can assure you, she aint comfortable.

No one, who is reasonable, will argue that the nurses etc arent working hard, with the tasks they are given, but the whole admin side of this across the PS is a joke, they're are issues of overstaffing with nurses, as highlighted by the OECD report, which speaking to a doctor friend, is a fact which affirms. Not the nurses fault, but still needs to be addressed.

There is also a serious issue of inflated wages in the PS, which has NOT been sufficiently addressed. We overpay our Public Servants time out of number over our European Counterparts, particularly nations of comparable size, even accounting for higher cost of living here.

Bottom line with too many public servants is that unfortunately, they dont seem to grasp the basics of economics, or the simple principles that underlie business and apply to ALL public servants who are emplyoyees of the state, YOU CANT SPEND MORE THAN MONEY THAN YOU HAVE COMING IN, using debt to pay wages is financial suicide. Cuts have to be made end of story, and no bitching and moaning is ever going to change this fact, especially the usually moronic line, 'yeah well... they bailed out the bankers..'

For future reference, pointing out spelling errors is a really feeble tactic for trying to 'discredit' one's opinion. And how on earth is the chap supposed to know that PS servants cant access this site, im assuming you mean in work, plenty of em posting on boards during work hours!

Dinter

dvpower wrote: »

And while the recession continues, we continue to give pay rises to public servants. A full pay freeze, including all increments and promotions is required.

This doesn't take into account the pension levy decreases though.

dvpower wrote: »

If that wasn't bad enough, we continue to add numbers to the public service. We need a recruitment embargo.

Most of the reforms etc being introduced are only in the last few months. These figures aren't really accurate.

givyjoe81

Dinter wrote: »

This doesn't take into account the pension levy decreases though.



Most of the reforms etc being introduced are only in the last few months. These figures aren't really accurate.

So the public service figures (CSO) on its own numbers cant be trusted? :rolleyes:

dvpower

Dinter wrote: »

This doesn't take into account the pension levy decreases though.

Granted. But compare this to the private sector - massive redundancies, little job security, many pensions decimated and almost across the board pay cuts. There is a real mismatch between public and private sector workers and this is fuelling the kind of over the top recriminations seen in this thread.

Dinter wrote: »

Most of the reforms etc being introduced are only in the last few months. These figures aren't really accurate.

The figures are up to March this year. They are from the CSO, so I presume that they are accurate.

But doesn't this post illustrate the problem? We are in the midst of a financial disaster and there appears to be no urgency to take real action.

galwayrush

Has the Clock been re-possessed yet?:rolleyes:

My name is URL

easyeason3 wrote: »

There won't be mass dismissals regardless of what you think.
IT WILL NOT BE POSSIBLE.
I'd nearly like to see the government try this & for the entire public sector to go on strike just to show people like you how much of an impact it will have.

gtfo

Do you seriously believe the garbage you type? Then you say, "they're dead right'!... To hold a nation at ransom when so many people are being fobbed off by the government.

Its idiotic

Jumpy

dan719 wrote: »

Eh I never said they were. In fact I was arguing the opposite. Perhaps you should read the thread next time.

He was quoting your post, he wasnt arguing against you.

Gumbo

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Now come off it, you dont really think he's comfortable because he's a banker do you? This notion that all 'bankers' are somehow living a life of luxury is just ignorance being perpetuated all over this site. Do you know anyone that works in a bank by any chance, i can assure you the average worker, particuarly those front of shop, have had to deal with brainless drones giving them dogs abuse for the wrongdoings of a few senior executives/management.

My own sister saw the years of shares she had earned turned practially worthless by the this mess, i can assure you, she aint comfortable.

No one, who is reasonable, will argue that the nurses etc arent working hard, with the tasks they are given, but the whole admin side of this across the PS is a joke, they're are issues of overstaffing with nurses, as highlighted by the OECD report, which speaking to a doctor friend, is a fact which affirms. Not the nurses fault, but still needs to be addressed.

There is also a serious issue of inflated wages in the PS, which has NOT been sufficiently addressed. We overpay our Public Servants time out of number over our European Counterparts, particularly nations of comparable size, even accounting for higher cost of living here.

Bottom line with too many public servants is that unfortunately, they dont seem to grasp the basics of economics, or the simple principles that underlie business and apply to ALL public servants who are emplyoyees of the state, YOU CANT SPEND MORE THAN MONEY THAN YOU HAVE COMING IN, using debt to pay wages is financial suicide. Cuts have to be made end of story, and no bitching and moaning is ever going to change this fact, especially the usually moronic line, 'yeah well... they bailed out the bankers..'

For future reference, pointing out spelling errors is a really feeble tactic for trying to 'discredit' one's opinion. And how on earth is the chap supposed to know that PS servants cant access this site, im assuming you mean in work, plenty of em posting on boards during work hours!

i assume we can use the same logic and say that not all public service workers earn anywhere near the quoted average of 50k and are living lives of luxury too?

jumpguy

Look lads, we can't just keep blaming the past. That's whats really annoying me. All the opposition are saying is "Fianna Fáil got us into this mess!" Nobody is looking at how to get us out, I don't see any opposition bringing forward their own great ideas. Everyone is only thinking about bitterness.
In the Dáil, the recession is a mere political game. Bash the government as much as possible, the government sugar-coating everything (as we've always done...remember WW2 was called "The Emergency"? For Christ's sake, we're not retarded). It's broken politics at it's best. I read an article a few months ago that summed it up very neatly why we're being so badly effected. The USA is one of those countries trying to dig itself out of the problem, they're in a hole, and they're clambering out. They're improving their infrastructure, health care systems, etc. Ireland, however, is doing the cowardly move. Hunkering down and digging in. Trying to "ride it out" as you'd say.
It's time Irish politics got a fresh rethink.