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Rally For Life (04-07-2009)

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    #122
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    Wheely wrote: »
    AlsoUltra -vid, going on those photos I'm not seeing the massive young adult presence which yourself and tommy claim were there. Seems to be to be a crowd made up largely of middle-aged/older people accompanied by a large number of young children, who I'm all sure we can agree, probably didn't know their reasons for being there. Other than to swell the apparent ranks?
    There were a lot of vibrant young adults there. I was one of those... if 27 counts as young and vibrant.


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    #123
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Ultravid wrote: »
    This is just one picture of a small section of the crowd.
    Quite a few young children holding banners and placards in that picture – you think it’s appropriate for small kids to be involved in this sort of thing?


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    #124
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Quite a few young children holding banners and placards in that picture – you think it’s appropriate for small kids to be involved in this sort of thing?

    Its not far removed from that bloke at the FF Ard fHeis holding up his 8 month old Daughter, and her membership card. " Its in the blood" as he said.

    Parental usage of Kids in political activities is fundamentally wrong. Of all things, children should be allowed develop their own political mindset.


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    #125
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    ronano wrote: »
    Another comment i take exception to is the idea that northern irish folk should be accepted in their protest. If they hold Irish citizenship then fine otherwise they are simply citizens of another state trying to influence law within a foreign country. I take exception to it if they don't hold an irish passport.

    Although I wouldn't support this march or the so called "pro-lifers" I would disagree with you there.
    I have a US passport but have participated in a few marches in Dublin myself. Just because I'm a "non-national" doesn't meant that I dont have a political opinion and a right to free speech.


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    #126
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    sovtek wrote: »
    Although I wouldn't support this march or the so called "pro-lifers" I would disagree with you there.
    I have a US passport but have participated in a few marches in Dublin myself. Just because I'm a "non-national" doesn't meant that I dont have a political opinion and a right to free speech.

    Kind of like all those pesky Irish marching over in the streets of New York lobbying for immigration reform eh? Where do they get off huh!?:rolleyes:


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    #127
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    Ultravid wrote: »
    There were a lot of vibrant young adults there. I was one of those... if 27 counts as young and vibrant.

    Fair enough, just doesn't seem that way from the photos is all.....


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    #128
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    Wheely wrote: »
    I'm sorry, do you think all those of a pro-choice persuasion are Socialists and feminists or just those who were at the counter-demo?

    Just those at the counter rally...


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    #129
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    Tommy T wrote: »
    Just those at the counter rally...
    Fair enough, I wasn't there so I can't comment.


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    #130
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Wheely wrote: »
    Bit of a cheap shot don't ya think.....?

    Or offering a contrast to the all was sweetness and light view of the march coming from some of the posters?

    Seriously, what's so cheap about it? Should I ignore that people like the quoted were also present at, and looking for support for, the pro life march?

    If nothing else it at least offers some balance to the poster who thinks all the pro choice supporters are socialists/feminists.


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    #131
    Wheely
    Closed Accounts Posts: 400 ✭✭Wheely


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    Or offering a contrast to the all was sweetness and light view of the march coming from some of the posters?

    Seriously, what's so cheap about it? Should I ignore that people like the quoted were also present at, and looking for support for, the pro life march?

    If nothing else it at least offers some balance to the poster who thinks all the pro choice supporters are socialists/feminists.

    Here look I'm sure i agree with you on the vast majority of what's being discussed here, doesn't mean a can' play devil's advocate once in a while.

    saying hey look I found a vile racist, who is also pro-life, ergo, I'll just let it hang there that I think we might be able to assume Pro-lifers and vile racists are one and the same, is a cheap shot.

    It's akin to labeling me a feminist and/or a socialist because I'm pro-choice, and tommy in fairness has acquiesced in this point. He does not, in fact, equate pro-choicers and socialists and feminists. Credit where credit is due.

    Ultravid however....... given some of your previous posts in relation to homosexuality, the value i place on your opinion/posts has gone the same way as Lehmans I'm afraid.


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    #132
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Wheely wrote: »
    Here look I'm sure i agree with you on the vast majority of what's being discussed here, doesn't mean a can' play devil's advocate once in a while.

    Absolutely - far more healthy for debate - didn't mean to come of as hostile, was genuinely interested in your opinion on it.
    Wheely wrote: »
    saying hey look I found a vile racist, who is also pro-life, ergo, I'll just let it hang there that I think we might be able to assume Pro-lifers and vile racists are one and the same, is a cheap shot.

    I didn't mean it to come across like that - but I thought Tommy T's constant praise of how wonderful the pro life side were, and it was only the nasty socialists and feminists who were doing mean things like Nazi salutes to be a bit rich, considering the Youth Defence had such a large part in the march. There were other posters on that Stormfront thread who said they took part in the march too, so while I would in no way accept faceless internet posters from there as being definitive of who was present at the march, I would also not accept the equally blinkered views from Tommy T and Ultravid that it was nothing more than a lovely stroll in the sunshine.
    Wheely wrote: »
    It's akin to labeling me a feminist and/or a socialist because I'm pro-choice, and tommy in fairness has acquiesced in this point. He does not, in fact, equate pro-choicers and socialists and feminists. Credit where credit is due.

    In fairness he has only grudgingly amended his view to "only those at the rally". Given his propensity to rant about "Jesuitical squirming" at the drop of a hat, I remain very suspicious of his claims that he's never been involved in anything pro life before.


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    #133
    PrivateEye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭PrivateEye


    Thankfully the Pro-Life movement transcends Sectarian boundaries

    Yep, the D.U.P (We all remember Iris Robinson last year?), the Christian Solidarity Party, the 60a Capel Street Mob (All those seperate and independent groups like Coir, Youth Defence, Families For Life....) , a few white nationalists from Stormfront, some hurley wielding thugs and even the European Right like the NDP. It really does bring people together.

    As for the SWP (sigh)/Feminist photographers, two regular Indymedia contributers have uploaded their snaps on to www.indymedia.ie. Neither one is a member of the SWP as far as I know. This makes them like the majority of the counter-demonstrators, who were not SWP either, hence their placards being the minority to the Choice Ireland ones.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/93038
    Photo-essay from the March

    The best comment over there goes to this

    Its also to remember who was behind the "Pro Life" rally. These people: Youth Defence/COIR/Mother&Child are also opposed to contraception, sex-education, Civil Partnership, LGBT Rights, Divorce.THey oppose anything which is in anyway progressive.....


    I fully realise that there those who oppose abortion but do not share the views of the YD gang. Don't associate yourselves with them.



    edit: The next 'Life' rally is in Belfast, this is a photo of 'Precious Life' activists, basically the Nordie Youth Defence. They seem heavier again on the religious approach, but in the context of the North of Ireland thats not all that surprising. It'll be interesting to see how that rally goes.

    52.png


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    #134
    PrivateEye
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭PrivateEye


    Also, even though the photographer is an Indymedia regular, there's no political bias in the shots. Did the job of a photographer well! Examples from the gallery,One from each side:

    460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_dsc_0097.jpg



    460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_dsc_0179.jpg


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    #135
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    to the poster who thinks all the pro choice supporters are socialists/feminists.

    Who would this poster be..?


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    #136
    billy the squid
    Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭billy the squid


    The big question here is, what did the jesuits do to piss off some of the anti-abortion people on here.

    AFAIK the 60 Capel street gang are thugs. I distinctly remember them being invited to the committee on Europe to talk about their concerns after the first lisbon referrendum, and acted like louts in the committee chamber, having to be ejected


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    #137
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    Tommy T wrote: »
    will continue to air my view no matter how hard the SWP/Feminist movement try to shut me up.
    Tommy T wrote: »
    The intolerance of the 'Liberal/Feminist agenda is as strong as ever.
    Tommy T wrote: »
    I also noticed some Left Wing photographers at the ready if any scuffles broke out but they were greatly disappointed as their bias wasn't fed...
    Tommy T wrote: »
    Funny how there's no pics from the SWP/feminist counter demonstrators. As they had photographers lying in wait...:)

    You seem fairly convinced that the counter protest was solely made up of SWP and "Feminists".

    You even have the insight to know that the photographers were "Left Wing".

    Though I suppose when you get to a certain point on the right, most things look like they are to the left.


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    #138
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    MikeC101 wrote: »
    You seem fairly convinced that the counter protest was solely made up of SWP and "Feminists".

    You even have the insight to know that the photographers were "Left Wing".

    Though I suppose when you get to a certain point on the right, most things look like they are to the left.

    As has already been extablished here. Those comments refer to those who identified themselves by posters.plackards at the counter Demmo. They were proud of their background and didn't try to hide it... I also refer to the Irish Feminist Movement whose numbers have included O'Faoliain, Ni Bhriann, McCafferty etc...


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    #139
    billy the squid
    Registered Users Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭billy the squid


    Tommy T wrote: »
    As has already been extablished here. Those comments refer to those who identified themselves by posters.plackards at the counter Demmo. They were proud of their background and didn't try to hide it... I also refer to the Irish Feminist Movement whose numbers have included O'Faoliain, Ni Bhriann, McCafferty etc...


    Out of interest, are you one of these people who likes their women barefoot, chained to the sink, and pregnant

    You seem to have a bee up your arse about feminismm yet despite beiong asked a number of times, you have failed to state why you have a rpoblem with feminism.

    Also, what did the jesuits do?


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    #140
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    billy the squid wrote: »
    Also, what did the jesuits do?

    I think it refers to the Jesuits using "casuistry" in their defense of the Church, it's positions on matters relating to science and so on, sins and so on.

    It's hard to summarise, but I think in the context it's referring to the idea of a Jesuitical argument being irrational and only constructed to defend some indefensible thing (ironically originally used to defend the Catholic churches position on matters when faced with a growing desire for rational and scientific answers and logic). I think nowadays it's more seen as a method / way to learn how to debate and construct arguments in an articulate manner.


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    #141
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    billy the squid wrote: »
    Out of interest, are you one of these people who likes their women barefoot, chained to the sink, and pregnant

    You seem to have a bee up your arse about feminismm yet despite beiong asked a number of times, you have failed to state why you have a rpoblem with feminism.

    Also, what did the jesuits do?

    I have issues with people who promote Abortion in Ireland as a choice... The Irish Feminist movement was to the forefront of this campaign and were in evidence at the counter demmo...

    The emotive diatribe from yourself says more about your issues than any of mine...:) Here to help...


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    #142
    Frei
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭Frei


    Heaven forbid letting women have a choice :rolleyes:


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    #143
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    Frei wrote: »
    Heaven forbid letting women have a choice :rolleyes:

    It's not that simple - if you believe a foetus, or fertilised egg, even, is a Human Being. Should I have a choice to kill you?

    I have no truck with Youth Defence, or their ilk. However, I would hate to see an abortion culture take hold here. Whatever about early stage abortion, or the morning after pill. The late stage abortions in the UK should, IMO, be a criminal offence in all but a (very) few cases.

    Having said that..

    I have always thought that there was a high level of hypocrisy associated with the "so-called" pro-life movement. Once the child is born, it appears to be all but forgotten. Where then the people demanding a proper environment, decent healthcare, a good standard of education....


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    #144
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    What part of this is not a debate on the rights and wrongs of abortion was unclear?


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    #145
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Its not far removed from that bloke at the FF Ard fHeis holding up his 8 month old Daughter, and her membership card. " Its in the blood" as he said.
    Oh I'm not trying to claim that this is a practice that is unique to this particular rally. But it does call into question the squeaky clean image of the protesters that some posters here are trying to portray.


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    #146
    Tommy T
    Closed Accounts Posts: 274 ✭✭Tommy T


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Oh I'm not trying to claim that this is a practice that is unique to this particular rally. But it does call into question the squeaky clean image of the protesters that some posters here are trying to portray.

    I'm only reporting what I saw on the day as a Pro-Life supporter. Those who organised and marshalled the march can take nothing but pride for the way it went despite the sick provocation from some of the counter demonatrators...


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    #147
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Tommy T wrote: »
    I'm only reporting what I saw on the day as a Pro-Life supporter. Those who organised and marshalled the march can take nothing but pride for the way it went despite the sick...
    ...use of children as rally fodder?


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    #148
    MikeC101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭MikeC101


    djpbarry wrote: »
    ...use of children as rally fodder?

    I think Tommy T is a "true believer". He'll happily march shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Youth Defense, and the odd Stormfront member thrown in for good measure and see nothing wrong with that, or understand the reaction YD tends to get, but his selective vision allows him only to see the other side as sick and evil.

    I would say there's absolutely no point in trying to get him to admit his side was anything less than perfect and squeaky clean - his blinkers simply won't allow him to see that.


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    #149
    nicola09
    Closed Accounts Posts: 308 ✭✭nicola09


    Tommy T wrote: »
    I have issues with people who promote Abortion in Ireland as a choice....

    Why? Would you care to elaborate? Surely promoting abortion as a CHOICE is preferable to the "abortions for all" that you fear?

    I was in Dublin yesterday, and was absolutely disgusted to learn of the existence of this rally (posters are still up tut tut)! Youth Defence are extremely shady and anyone who supported that rally allied themselves with a group that essentially enforce their beliefs while breaking the law. The link with religion was completely idiotic. If you wanted to lend credibility to your rally, why on earth would you commence with a mass and then allow people to march with religious insignia?! At a time where the Catholic Church has fallen so far, you should have avoided association as all costs! Not to mention the mass hypocrisy of the church in this respect....."Don't have sex, sex is evil. If you do have sex, contraception is evil. If you get pregnant because of aforementioned lack of evil contraception, don't have an abortion, abortions are evil." Confusion at best, complete stupidity at worst.

    Perhaps I am deviating from the topic now, but the whole "Pro Life" mantra is jaded in my opinion, as are mass rallies to promote the idea. As an 18 year old girl, I know that most of my friends would gladly support any move to introduce abortion in Ireland, because we have discussed the issue many times! How many girls of this age did you have at your rally? You can preach all you like about the rights of the unborn, but you have precious little support from the people who are actually in a position to have an abortion!

    In conclusion, I cannot believe that this rally even took place. Give it another few years and you can guarantee that some change in leglislation (ok the Constitution, but I live in hope :D) coupled with the decline of the church's influence will make abortion legally available in Ireland. Look at the Mother and Child Scheme. It was completely opposed, and then was snuck in a few years later. If there was a referendum on the issue right now, and all women of childbearing age turned up to vote, all the pro-life rallies in the world could not prevent abortion in Ireland being legalised!


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    #150
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    nicola09 wrote: »
    At a time where the Catholic Church has fallen so far, you should have avoided association as all costs! Not to mention the mass hypocrisy of the church in this respect....."Don't have sex, sex is evil. If you do have sex, contraception is evil. If you get pregnant because of aforementioned lack of evil contraception, don't have an abortion, abortions are evil." Confusion at best, complete stupidity at worst.
    The Church has not fallen 'so far'. The Church is composed of human and divine elements. The individual human membership is prone to sinning. The divine element is infallible and will continue to proclaim the sanctity of all all human life from conception to natural death.

    Somebody else spoke of the Church as being against science. This is incorrect. The Church founded the university system in Europe and many very prominent and distinguished scientists were clergy in the Catholic Church. 'How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilisation' is a good book on the topic.


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    #151
    Ultravid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    The official event site now has a gallery of pictures of the rally:

    http://www.rallyforlife.net/Rally2009.htm


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