Gun Nation

pajero2005

Hi all. I was just channel hopping on the T.V. and came across a new series on National Geographic called Gun Nation. Its all about the gun culture in the U.S.A. Just wondering if anyone on here saw it and what are ye're opinions / views?? Do ye think gun laws/control here is too tight or just right? I for one would not want our little island to be flooded with guns as much as some states in the U.S. Especially given the lack of background checks etc:eek:.

Dont get me wrong, I know its a pain with the current waiting times and feeling like you have to jump thru' hoops for the licence:mad:, but I feel in general its for the greater good of all of us. Any comments? Or is this like asking how long is a piece of string?

Bob.

Grizzly 45

Was slated in the US as anti gun and did national geographic no favours as being unbaised,from what I hear.
Without going yet again into the total difference between the USA and Ireland,and not forgetting that the USA hasRTKBA and now a backround check.[Called the Brady check.] Our "little island " wont ever be flooded with firearms.Despite the paranoid ravings of some our politicans.The USA has over 100 million regd handguns,triple that for shotguns and rifles.
It would mean that every man woman and child in Ireland would have to own over six guns,to put us on par ratio.Maybe in a parallel universe.:rolleyes:
Actually the way things are going;it will be much easier to aquire an illegal gun than a legal one.THEN we will have big problems here.
Our laws are fine,there is enough of them they just need to be enforced properly
What would help is that some Gardai and politicans loose this stupid idea that handguns are more deadlier than any other type of firearm.:(

pajero2005

It did come across as anti-gun. They made a big thing of fathers bringing kids to a shooting range and firing guns in a controlled enviorment??? At the same time, a blind man could see the problems the have with the amount of guns in the wrong hands.

The figures quoted last night were 250 million guns in the U.S. But that was a "best guess". I would think its alot more than that in reality:eek:

IRLConor

pajero2005 wrote: »

I was keen to see what people made of the "castle laws" (the right to protect your home, even if intruder is unarmed) Not trying to open a can of worms here, just not sure weather I would be for/against it.

I'm sorry, but discussion on that topic is not allowed, as per the charter.

Perhaps the Legal Discussion forum would be more suitable for discussion on that topic.

pajero2005

Apologies. I'll edit the last post.

Hivemind187

pajero2005 wrote: »

It did come across as anti-gun. They made a big thing of fathers bringing kids to a shooting range and firing guns in a controlled enviorment??? At the same time, a blind man could see the problems the have with the amount of guns in the wrong hands.

The "wrong hands" being anyone with the intent to comit a crime. Having the intention of comiting a crime by definition means that the existance of a law proves no barrier to your actions.

To be honest, its the same wooly thinking and loose brained rambling we've seen for 20 years from the anti-gun lobby. "If we makes guns impossible for responsible people to get then we wont have any more street or domestic violence with firearms".

as with most "anti" campaigns, logic is its absolute sworn enemy.

pajero2005 wrote: »

The figures quoted last night were 250 million guns in the U.S. But that was a "best guess". I would think its alot more than that in reality:eek:

Why would you think it is more? Why is that an "eek" moment?

A gun, left alone, is utterly harmless. It is inanimate. It can do nothing without interference from an external source. It is the individual operating it that is the menace if any exists.

Perhaps the United States should ban dumb people?

Grizzly 45

They made a big thing of fathers bringing kids to a shooting range and firing guns in a controlled enviorment???

AND???They obviously must see somthing wrong in responsible parenting and teaching gun usage and saftey from an early age.Better than shoving it in the sock drawer and not mentioning that we have a G-u-n in the house in front of the kids type ownership.:rolleyes:

The figures quoted last night were 250 million guns in the U.S. But that was a "best guess". I would think its alot more than that in reality:eek:

That proably known and registerd figures,and thats a mid 1980s figure as well.Say all in 750 million+/- give or take.

cavan shooter

If you remember bowling for columbine a few years ago there was a very good comparison between Canada and the states in relation to gun owning. The Canadians are big into there hunting but not as paranoid.

I watched that program, lets be honest watch any u tube videos from the states and you could see why people say there is a gun culture.

Maybe im just old fashioned:D

Grizzly 45

BLOWing for Columbine...An "Opinionary" from Fat Man Moore,so riddled with untruths,fiction,made up nonsense[Amazing how Charlie Heston could change his shirt and the backround TWICE in the famous "cold dead hands "speech:rolleyes:].IF anyone still belives that is a true reflection of firearms in America.
Then the Teletubbies are a fine repersentatives of Irish current factual political debate.

Both sides of the border have pro and negative aspects to ownership.
Fine if you are living in British Coloumbia,not so good in the French side of Canada.By and large the US stil is more liberal on gunownership than most.

Maybe the rest of the World is just jealous?:D

PJ Hunter

cavan shooter wrote: »

If you remember bowling for columbine a few years ago there was a very good comparison between Canada and the states in relation to gun owning. The Canadians are big into there hunting but not as paranoid.

I watched that program, lets be honest watch any u tube videos from the states and you could see why people say there is a gun culture.

Maybe im just old fashioned:D

there's gun culture and there's gun culture. over this side of the pond we have sporting firearms culture, different animal altogeather. unfortunately many don't see any difference when there's gangland killings every other day of the week,all firearms are tarred with the same brush:o

Hivemind187

In every credible piece of research done the statistics have shown that where you have more poverty you have more crime.

The United States, and anyone who has ever been there will tell you, is probably one of the most schizophrenic places to live in the world. The majority of people are struggling to make ends meet, even the middle classes and have been doing so for the last hundred years. The rest are either very well off or extremely wealthy. Prices are high, jobs are few and the wages are small. The ethos of the nation, its very mindset, is to gain - by hook or by crook - any profit you can because you are lead to believe that everyone else is doing the same. Success is measured in wealth and the trappings that go with it.

If you have no prospects, no education, no support structure and live in a place where the welfare system is sorely inadequate then you will turn to crime in order to feed yourself. It is simply a matter of need versus the luxury of morality. You need to eat, you dont need to care about others peoples right to their property.

It is worth noting that those with the intent to comit a crime are not deterred from their actions by the existance of a law.

Add to the mix drugs. The very fact that these items are illegal yet there is strill a demand for them provides the only reason for drug-gangs and drug crime to exist (at least in terms of organised dealing, import etc). These gangs feel the need to protect themselves from other criminals or will use force to enroach on the business of other gangs - the mechanism is no different to a hostile takeover in the corporate world but it is certainly faster, less legal and bloodier.

The existance of guns and their use in criminal acts is only a symptom and it is not one that can be treated by attempting to "wipe away" the mucous on societies runny nose. Shouting about "gun culture" is not solving or dealing with the issue in any useful way because you simply can not un-invent guns.

It is unfortunate though that societies response to nearly everything is to place blame on a small group, a single individual or some inanimate object - implying that should these be removed everything will be shiney and happy again.

The answer has to come from another source. America needs to accept that its own legal policy is fueling the majority of the firearms related crime in the US and that its ethos is responsible for the disilluionment that leads to another large percentage. The rest of the crimes, if you look at the crimes themsleves, are either down to spur-of-the-moment acts, pre-meditated acts against a specific individual or the lone nut-case scenario we have seen played out. None of which merit the exclusion of the items used from personal, responsible ownership.

The same logic should be applied here in Ireland, but as I say, its not about solving problems, its all about allocating blame.

PJ Hunter

who's to blame for all this gun crime, it's not all from the black community
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cce2xX594_M

pajero2005

"Why would you think it is more? Why is that an "eek" moment?"

Because the figures stated only refer to the licenced guns, not any of the black market ones, surely thats cause for concern. Also as Grizzly said those stats are pretty dated now.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

AND???They obviously must see somthing wrong in responsible parenting and teaching gun usage and saftey from an early age.Better than shoving it in the sock drawer and not mentioning that we have a G-u-n in the house in front of the kids type ownership.:rolleyes:

Thats the point I was tryin to make. Where is the harm in teaching gun safety to kids?

Grizzly 45

Dont get black market mixed up with un registerd figures BTW.
Unregisterd in the US means certain States dont have a register requiremnent on things like rifles,shotguns,blackpowder arms, curios,etc,guns made before 1870,antiques,war souviners, etc.

Blackmarket would refer to stolen from owners,gun stores,army depots and so forth.
Chris Rock...Exellent!

Grizzly 45

[Thats trying to wrap up a very complex country and alot of socio economic and historical problems in a paragraph with some pretty sweeping generalisations there Hivemind.:)
I mean we could apply alot of that now to ourselves here as well, pre and post celtic tiger.
I agree 100% it is not a utopian society by any means and indeed blame should be hung on the individual not an inanimate object.But to say the society is to blame is simplifying things way too much.

Hivemind187

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[Thats trying to wrap up a very complex country and alot of socio economic and historical problems in a paragraph with some pretty sweeping generalisations there Hivemind.:)
I mean we could apply alot of that now to ourselves here as well, pre and post celtic tiger.
I agree 100% it is not a utopian society by any means and indeed blame should be hung on the individual not an inanimate object.But to say the society is to blame is simplifying things way too much.

Can you find me some contradictory evidence there Grizzly because I'd love to see the data which shows something different to the fundamental point: the poorer people are, the more likely they will be involved in crime.

"Blame" is irrelevant since it does nothing to solve a problem, it merely gives people something to invest their emotions in.

Which bit, exactly, is over simplification? What do you want to "blame"? Too much sugar in soft drinks? The government? Video games? Anything can be dismissed as "over simplification" if you dont provide an alternative theory.

Any society with different economic strata will see higher crime levels amongst those who suffer great levels of poverty. The fact that firearms are involved is irrelevant to the real issue.

PJ Hunter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[Thats trying to wrap up a very complex country and alot of socio economic and historical problems in a paragraph with some pretty sweeping generalisations there Hivemind.:)
I mean we could apply alot of that now to ourselves here as well, pre and post celtic tiger.
I agree 100% it is not a utopian society by any means and indeed blame should be hung on the individual not an inanimate object.But to say the society is to blame is simplifying things way too much.

"I mean we could apply alot of that now to ourselves here as well, pre and post celtic tiger".

suppose we're your right threre, more nob nation than gun nation:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyeaxhQwblM

fish slapped

Re: Crime in the lower classes.

Crime in the lower classes in more front line crime , ie. personal and against the individual.

But there is also quite a level of crime in the higher classes - tax evasion, fraud, embezzlement, company expenses , vice rape and oh yes drug abuse.

The big difference money to cover your crime!!

Grizzly 45

[

the poorer people are, the more likely they will be involved in crime.

Intresting ,considering in depression era USA,there was less lawbreaking done by normal people[excluding such as Al Capone,Dillinger,etc] than there is now,and that was real poverty. Ditto Weimar Germany.Yes crime like rats and fleas will be always with .But is it an individualistic thing or a group thing.

"Blame" is irrelevant since it does nothing to solve a problem, it merely gives people something to invest their emotions in.

100% right,so why then are you"blaming" US society???We have the mirror image of US society bar the firearms issue here then as well.

Which bit, exactly, is over simplification? What do you want to "blame"? Too much sugar in soft drinks? The government? Video games? Anything can be dismissed as "over simplification" if you dont provide an alternative theory.

The entire post bar the firearms bits.You didnt take into account race distribution of crime,extreme urban or extreme rural differences.Plenty of the kind of people you describe live in LA and New York,and proably every other big city.
Yet if you go down South,West or North West ,you will still find communities like what we had 40 years ago with very little crime,jobs etc.Not to mind empowerment programmes for racially disadvantged,gender equality,and a plethora of other issues that give poor people more of a chance to get on with life than your average person would get over here.

Not to mind a few other reasons for the current world depression,one being banks in CA being FORCED by law to loan money to welfare recipients and the low/no paid to buy their houses[Sen Hillary Clinton and Sen [then] Barrack Obama ,take a bow].
Then lets go into the whole issue of Welfare,and handouts of that nature,Health care,and how that should work efficently in atop heavy beuraccy.It would make our lot look hyper efficent.Low paid jobs,maybe,but your employer picks up appx 33% of your health plan,dental plan,and God alone knows what else these days,so what we pay out of our own pockets your employer pays for you and your family.Then we can go into the crap education system,where reading,writing,and rithmetic has been abandoned for gender equality issues,your rights as a child,teen pregger counseling etc.And,and,and.

Thats what I am saying by oversimplification,and that is going off the whole subject of firearms so these points is OT.

Any society with different economic strata will see higher crime levels amongst those who suffer great levels of poverty. The fact that firearms are involved is irrelevant to the real issue.

Not doubting you at all on that.BUT you could apply that now to any Western society,and proably Russia..In that case the criminals are the respected ones and it hard to know are they ones controlling Russia or living there So why pick on the US ??

Sikamick

All the debate re poor and rich and who is the most likely to commit crime sounds great but misses the point. The programme is relevant to the USA not Ireland.

If owning a legal firearm is gun culture then every country in the world could be put into the same box.

Ireland has had legal gun ownership for years and that includes pistols.

Before 72 how many privately owned pistol were used in crime, how many lives were saved since the 72 ban on pistols and how many people have been killed with privately owned pistol since 2004????.

In my opinion the debate is irrelevant this is not America and Irish gun ownership cannot be put in the same category as the US.

My two pence worth.

Please read the original post below.

Sikamick

Gun Nation

Hi all. I was just channel hopping on the T.V. and came across a new series on National Geographic called Gun Nation. Its all about the gun culture in the U.S.A. Just wondering if anyone on here saw it and what are ye're opinions / views?? Do ye think gun laws/control here is too tight or just right? I for one would not want our little island to be flooded with guns as much as some states in the U.S. Especially given the lack of background checks etc .

Dont get me wrong, I know its a pain with the current waiting times and feeling like you have to jump thru' hoops for the licence , but I feel in general its for the greater good of all of us. Any comments? Or is this like asking how long is a piece of string?

Bob.

Sparks

TBH, I don't think there's much more anyone could add to the topic. Sika's summed it up pretty much perfectly. Closing thread.