you are bord snip your 10 biggest cuts?

murf313

smccarrick wrote: »

No- I don't.
Dole in the UK is £65 a week. If we significantly reduced the dole, massively cut the cost of living- and reduced public sector pay- then people would be sufficiently incentivised to go out and take lower paying jobs.

Ps- no, Brians no friend of mine......

How would cutting public sector pay make civil servants want to take a lower paid job?
Really, I dont think some of you are living in the real world! Do you really believe all the crap the media are spouting about "overpaid civil servants"? Sure the top managers, TDs etc are grossly over paid but joe soap working in your dole office, army, nurses, paramedic etc is not. Dont forget the pension levy took a fair chunk out of peole who are on less than 40k already.
Basically the government wants to save money after all its fcuk ups and is going to take it from the most vunerable again. Shame on everyone for jumping on the witch hunt band wagon!

irish_bob

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

How does that help the public finances? Apart from a small number of public servants who might be on it I cannot see how it saves the government any money.

Are you making an assumption that it would reduce unemployment prehaps?

thier isnt a single public servant in the country on the minimum wage , all minimum wage workers are in the private sector

The_Conductor

murf313 wrote: »

How would cutting public sector pay make civil servants want to take a lower paid job?
Really, I dont think some of you are living in the real world! Do you really believe all the crap the media are spouting about "overpaid civil servants"? Sure the top managers, TDs etc are grossly over paid but joe soap working in your dole office, army, nurses, paramedic etc is not. Dont forget the pension levy took a fair chunk out of peole who are on less than 40k already.
Basically the government wants to save money after all its fcuk ups and is going to take it from the most vunerable again. Shame on everyone for jumping on the witch hunt band wagon!

Do another benchmarking exercise. Pay admin staff the going rate for admin work, junior management (EO and higher) junior management rates and so ad infinitum. At the moment there is a bulge at the top and at the bottom. COs and SOs are paid considerably more than comparable jobs in the private sector. Junior management is pretty much on parr- and senior management is paid too much (as is senior management in the private sector).

What needs to be done in the civil service though- is an exercise to actually evaluate the skills and qualifications of civil servants. There are a lot of highly skilled people doing donkey work- because according to politicians and media- all civil servants should be interchangeable. Thats a load of bollox. If someone has good finance qualifications- give them a finance job, technical qualifications- put them in a post where they can use those qualifications etc. It would save an arseload of money on overpriced external consultants. So- you'd have people doing jobs that were both interesting and pertinent to them- at a lesser cost than external consultants and contractors- perhaps give them an allowance- in recognition of the assets they are bringing to that relevant job- instead of simply slating them.

Yes- I know those on under 40k have lost a big chunk with the pensions levy- I don't dispute this fact- but I do think there are thousands of qualified people in the civil service who would be far better off were they put in areas in which they have skills and competence that they could bring to bear in the job.

I hope this clarifies matters.

The_Conductor

irish_bob wrote: »

thier isnt a single public servant in the country on the minimum wage , all minimum wage workers are in the private sector

Not true. The going rate for cleaning staff and many other contract employees in the civil service is minimum wage. Totally aside from this- if you factor the expected unpaid overtime most people are expected to work into the equation- the majority of people in both the public and private sectors are on minimum wage. Sit down and do the maths.

irish_bob

murf313 wrote: »

How would cutting public sector pay make civil servants want to take a lower paid job?
Really, I dont think some of you are living in the real world! Do you really believe all the crap the media are spouting about "overpaid civil servants"? Sure the top managers, TDs etc are grossly over paid but joe soap working in your dole office, army, nurses, paramedic etc is not. Dont forget the pension levy took a fair chunk out of peole who are on less than 40k already.
Basically the government wants to save money after all its fcuk ups and is going to take it from the most vunerable again. Shame on everyone for jumping on the witch hunt band wagon!

all public servants in this country are very highly paid compared to other european countries , police , teachers , consultants and especially nurses are paid at least 30% more than in the uk , which is a wealthier country than ireland

entrely level civil servants , clerical officers (who,s duties consist of the ability to answer phones and use a photo copier ) are paid far more than equivelents in the private sector , in fact the difference between public and private sector pay is greateast at the lower paid levels , a key part of the goverments fcuk ups was over paying the public sector and while fianna fail got a few terms in goverment out of it , the rest of us got nothing in terms of service improovement , MONEY FOR NOTHNG ( compared to private sector ) AND THE PENSIONS FOR FREE

murf313

smccarrick wrote: »

Do another benchmarking exercise. Pay admin staff the going rate for admin work, junior management (EO and higher) junior management rates and so ad infinitum. At the moment there is a bulge at the top and at the bottom. COs and SOs are paid considerably more than comparable jobs in the private sector. Junior management is pretty much on parr- and senior management is paid too much (as is senior management in the private sector).

What needs to be done in the civil service though- is an exercise to actually evaluate the skills and qualifications of civil servants. There are a lot of highly skilled people doing donkey work- because according to politicians and media- all civil servants should be interchangeable. Thats a load of bollox. If someone has good finance qualifications- give them a finance job, technical qualifications- put them in a post where they can use those qualifications etc. It would save an arseload of money on overpriced external consultants. So- you'd have people doing jobs that were both interesting and pertinent to them- at a lesser cost than external consultants and contractors- perhaps give them an allowance- in recognition of the assets they are bringing to that relevant job- instead of simply slating them.

Yes- I know those on under 40k have lost a big chunk with the pensions levy- I don't dispute this fact- but I do think there are thousands of qualified people in the civil service who would be far better off were they put in areas in which they have skills and competence that they could bring to bear in the job.

I hope this clarifies matters.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. There are much better ways of saving money by cutting wages as smccarrick has outlined in the above post. If you saw some of the waste of money that goes on in the public sector you would be shocked, but again that is the highly paid managers job!

BTW futuretaoiseach would you be willing to take a 21% pay cut if you were on less than 40k? Thats alot of people who will be struggling to cope.

AlekSmart

transylman wrote: »

Slash all social welfare payments, by up to 20% in some cases.
Means tested benefits.
Means tested college fees.
Cut health spending and introduce cost saving programmes.
Freeze on public sector pay (should be cut but they don't have the balls)
Cut number of managerial positions in public sector, as well as overall staff reductions.
Drop the minimuum wage level. (not going to bring in more money but needed for competitiveness)
No more major infrastructure projects other than those already started.

Don't agree with all of the above but it has to be done because we are deep, deep, deep in the $hitter.

All quite "Bleedin Obvious" to quote poor ol`Peter Cook except perhaps to crooked Politicians.

However it appears to me that reducing Social Welfare Base Rates is NOT the way to go as it will alienate and antagonise a huge swathe of our humanity who have become totally integrated with a support system akin to Playtex.

In my own area of operation I have noticed a huge increase in the use of Social Welfare Free Passes.

It is surely cause for alarm when one notes a figure of circa.600,000 (Legitimate) DSFA Passes in circulation.
This number can then be increased to include Spouses and Companions whose Public Transport needs are then met from the Public Purse.

The worrying trend in the past 12 months is the continuing increase in NON-OAP Pass holders.
In the past this sector were readily identifyable by the issue of a different colour pass.
However,since Seamus Brennan`s extension of the DSFA Free Travel scheme hours of operation all DSFA Passes are the same colour irrespective of the scheme they are issued under.

I now regularly have to remind DSFA Pass Holders that their shiny new Red Stripe Pass with the term PASS HOLDER ONLY writ large upon it does NOT allow their spouse or "Companion" to travel for choice.

In many cases my efforts are hampered by a language barrier which can add to frustrated Fare Paying customers getting shirty while their service is delayed due to the Driver attempting to explain the intricacies of the system to an equally certain Pass Holder.

In one recent case a Gent,ushered his wife,mother,and FOUR teenage children quickly past me whilst waving the "Butter Voucher".

The man was very taken aback when I asked to inspect his pass and pointed out the ACTUAL cover it provided.
He insisted that the DSFA person had told him that his Family was fully covered by the piece of card for ALL Public Transport in Ireland.

This type of attitude is becoming increasingly prevalent and SHOULD be causing worry to the Administrators of ALL such Social Benefit schemes.
Whether it be Free Travel,Rent Allowance,Telephone Allowance or Childrens Allowance there is absolutely NO recognition or acceptance of the reality that these funds have to come from SOMEBODY,and those somebodies are becoming an endangered species.

It`s all very laudable to hear the Brian`s and their fellow politicians talk in sombre tones about ensuring that the "Needy" and the "Poor" of our society will be looked after.
However I really do wonder if the Politicians actually understand how the terms "Needy","Underpriviledged" and "Poor" can equally be applied to a fairly substantial chunk of people who remain tenuously in employment,yet who qualify for very little "Free Stuff" at all.

BraziliaNZ

irish_bob wrote: »

all public servants in this country are very highly paid compared to other european countries , police , teachers , consultants and especially nurses are paid at least 30% more than in the uk , which is a wealthier country than ireland

Ireland is considerably more expensive than every other European country though

seamus

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Ireland is considerably more expensive than every other European country though

Not so much any more. Prices have dropped and are still dropping across most goods and services. It's a chicken and egg scenario. If people can't afford to €1 for a pint of milk, then the shops will start selling them at 85c.

Supply and demand economics affects increases and decreases. The argument that we need to be paid more because we're more expensive ignores the fact that if we're paid less (like most of us now are), then the cost of goods will consequently drop to match.

BraziliaNZ

seamus wrote: »

Not so much any more. Prices have dropped and are still dropping across most goods and services. It's a chicken and egg scenario. If people can't afford to €1 for a pint of milk, then the shops will start selling them at 85c.

Supply and demand economics affects increases and decreases. The argument that we need to be paid more because we're more expensive ignores the fact that if we're paid less (like most of us now are), then the cost of goods will consequently drop to match.

Yes hopefully but i dont really see the competition culture that much in ireland. If there are 2 pubs in a town and one is doing more business than the other, they don't seem to lower prices to entice more customers, they just close down, then everyone goes to the other one which can then raise it's prices if it wants. So maybe we'll just get less options at the same price.
It's good to see the supermarkets competing with each other though.

Dozen Wicked Words

irish_bob wrote: »

all public servants in this country are very highly paid compared to other european countries , police , teachers , consultants and especially nurses are paid at least 30% more than in the uk , which is a wealthier country than ireland

entrely level civil servants , clerical officers (who,s duties consist of the ability to answer phones and use a photo copier ) are paid far more than equivelents in the private sector , in fact the difference between public and private sector pay is greateast at the lower paid levels , a key part of the goverments fcuk ups was over paying the public sector and while fianna fail got a few terms in goverment out of it , the rest of us got nothing in terms of service improovement , MONEY FOR NOTHNG ( compared to private sector ) AND THE PENSIONS FOR FREE

Wages have been cut in the Public Sector, whats a "Income Levy"? The Pension "Levy" actually takes more out of my wages than the pension itself.

Why so concerned about UK wages? A comparison between UK and Irish workers seems irrelevant unless you want to link Irish pay to the exchange rate with sterling? If the exchange rate was at the initial 67p wages would not look as attractive, but if sterling further deteriorates irish wages will look even better.

I look forward to the irish bob economic policy of wage rises and falls dependant on the UK economy.

seamus

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Yes hopefully but i dont really see the competition culture that much in ireland. If there are 2 pubs in a town and one is doing more business than the other, they don't seem to lower prices to entice more customers, they just close down, then everyone goes to the other one which can then raise it's prices if it wants. So maybe we'll just get less options at the same price.

The consumer used to be at fault for this - we would go for our preferred shop/pub/company regardless of price, but I'm glad to see that we seem to be finally copping on.
People now seem to either go to the guy who's offering the best overall package (we're not afraid to pay a little more for better quality) or go to nobody at all if nobody is offering a good deal.

BraziliaNZ

seamus wrote: »

The consumer used to be at fault for this - we would go for our preferred shop/pub/company regardless of price, but I'm glad to see that we seem to be finally copping on.
People now seem to either go to the guy who's offering the best overall package (we're not afraid to pay a little more for better quality) or go to nobody at all if nobody is offering a good deal.

Is the pub/bar industry immune to this though, how come none of them are lowering their prices?

gerry28

clerical officers (who,s duties consist of the ability to answer phones and use a photo copier )

I think you'll find they do quite a bit more than this.

If you reduce a CO's income to the min wage you will end up with people of very low ability remaining in these jobs over the long term. Believe it or not but CO's are the backbone of many public and civil service offices. Mistakes at this level can cause significant problems.

1huge1

Morphéus wrote: »

alcahol - increase tax



vat - decrease to encourage more consumer spending


Just my thoughts!

How can you say you would increase the tax on alcohol and agree with decreasing vat.

You do realise that the alcohol industry in Ireland is in trouble and by actually decreasing the tax on it that would be the best way to increase revenue from it.
As for vat I'd decrease it but not by much as we are gaining a lot of lost competitivness at current levels

I do agree with what your said about military spending by the way.

Red Alert

1. Abolish or reform the Seanad in a coherent way.

2. Revert the entire county and city of dublin to having one county council. This would improve efficiency no end. Additionally, other counties could be administratively combined - such as Clare and Limerick, even if they retain separate county councils.

3. Properly reform the HSE, remove duplication and excess back-office staff.

4. Have a major focus on e-government. But do it properly - some government websites just print out the form that the person filled in, as if it came in by post. Reduce costs by having standard requests fulfilled entirely electronically.

5. Consolidate IT Support and Websites for all departments - every little tinpot-office has a server, IT support person, not to mention a website. Reduce costs by using open-source server software (which the Irish government only seems to use on citizensinformation.ie) and by consolidating all central government IT systems into a small number of datacentres.

6. Force the universities to account for their administrative burden as a cost centre. Then impose targets on reducing these costs whilst maintaining services. There is a lot of waste in most institutions.

7. Dispose of the e-voting system and pay off/annul/otherwise productively use the storage contracts for the system.

8. No employment of external PR consultants. Reduce general consulting needs by seeking to build-up in-house expertise. Where specific projects can be totally handed over to an efficient private operator it should be done - like with SGS or Violia.

9. Serious reform of CIE. Where do I start here? Retain the different brands but legally re-integrate the companies to reduce administrative cost. Ensure that train-stations are maximizing concession revenues.

10. Make TD's use drivers from a pool to reduce costs and to put guards back doing their job.

dvpower

murf313 wrote: »

Do you really believe all the crap the media are spouting about "overpaid civil servants"? Sure the top managers, TDs etc are grossly over paid but joe soap working in your dole office, army, nurses, paramedic etc is not. Dont forget the pension levy took a fair chunk out of peole who are on less than 40k already.

cso wrote:

Pay for the average Irish public sector worker was €50,598 per annum in March 2009

Looks overpaid to me.

Riskymove

dvpower wrote: »

Looks overpaid to me.

sigh...not that dreaded word "average" again

Riskymove

Red Alert wrote: »

2. Revert the entire county and city of dublin to having one county council. This would improve efficiency no end. Additionally, other counties could be administratively combined - such as Clare and Limerick, even if they retain separate county councils.

I think having one Council for all of county dublin would lead to too many issues given the scale of its growth in size

however, i do like the idea of shared services between councils and I would apply that to Dublin too

3. Properly reform the HSE, remove duplication and excess back-office staff.

absolutely, still the elephant in the room of public pay

10. Make TD's use drivers from a pool to reduce costs and to put guards back doing their job.

TDs don't have garda drivers they hire their own

Minister's (and some others) do get Garda drivers but this is actually a security measure aimed at protecting cabinet papers and other such secret material (believe it or not) rather than the Minister themselves

its small numbers really

murf313

dvpower wrote: »

Looks overpaid to me.

so you think its fair to have a pay cut across the board then?
I am on no where near that amount of pay and have already been hit with a pension levy, which is ineffect a pay cut because it is deducted from non pensionable pay (overtime etc)
I work on average 48 hours a week and i can tell you now i am no where nearly overpaid.
Its going to the same as usual, the lower paid will be hit the hardest and those getting the big bucks will be able to laugh it off!

The_Conductor

Riskymove wrote: »

sigh...not that dreaded word "average" again

I wish people would use 'mean' but the average person doesn't know the difference between the two- and the CSO couldn't be arsed giving a mean figure (which would of course by substantially lower......)

Riskymove

smccarrick wrote: »

I wish people would use 'mean' but the average person doesn't know the difference between the two- and the CSO couldn't be arsed giving a mean figure (which would of course by substantially lower......)

well i was coming more from the angle that the poster was implying

i.e. implying that average public sector pay is €50,000 means that the "typical" public sector worker you know of is earning that...

reilig

Maybe just a little bit on Bob's defence. The Irish Farmer's Journal has completed some research on the Dep of Agriculture. They released the first of their figures in yesterday's publication. They found, to give you the short version, that for every €3 paid out to farmers in grants and subsidies, the administration of this money costs €1.

I don't know where you got your figures from for admin costs in teh Dep of Agriculture, but the IFJ suggests very differently.

www.irishfarmersjournal.ie

Cute_Button wrote: »

First of all- there are a total of 182,000 people employed in the agriculture and food sectors in the country- of whom 124,000 (if you want to be pedantic and use ILO stats- 118,200) (a rise for the first time in several years) are considered to be fulltime farmers.

The total amount spent on Irish agriculture (a combination of national and EU funding) came to 3.56 billion, of which less than 8.5% (just under 300m) was expenditure related to administration costs of all types. Subsidies represent almost 85% of net operating surplus in the entire agri-food sector.

There are just under 3800 staff in the Department- of whom less than half are administrative staff- and this is expected to fall by a further 700 in 2009 through a non-replacement and redeployment policy- which will bring the staff count to roughly half what you're suggesting.

Finally- and I don't know if you're aware of it- but there are fewer staff in the Department than there have been since the 1950s- and if you honestly think the policy of downsizing the department, cutting pay, and forcing people to travel hundreds of miles on a daily basis to and from work is going to get Fianna Fail extra votes- you're very sadly mistaken. All there is on the horizon are more local offices closing, more being merged or converted into social welfare offices, less staff to deal with an increasingly irate public, and more frustration for everyone.

You really sound like you have a chip on your shoulder about the Department of Agriculture Irish_bob.

reilig

Sorry to contradict you, but Cleaning staff and contract staff in the Civil Service are paid JLC rates. The lowest JLC rate lies at least 50c per hour above the minimum wage.

smccarrick wrote: »

Not true. The going rate for cleaning staff and many other contract employees in the civil service is minimum wage. Totally aside from this- if you factor the expected unpaid overtime most people are expected to work into the equation- the majority of people in both the public and private sectors are on minimum wage. Sit down and do the maths.

The_Conductor

reilig wrote: »

Maybe just a little bit on Bob's defence. The Irish Farmer's Journal has completed some research on the Dep of Agriculture. They released the first of their figures in yesterday's publication. They found, to give you the short version, that for every €3 paid out to farmers in grants and subsidies, the administration of this money costs €1.

I don't know where you got your figures from for admin costs in teh Dep of Agriculture, but the IFJ suggests very differently.

www.irishfarmersjournal.ie

I'm not certain- but the figures in the Department's 2007 Annual Report would bear out the 8% figure quoted by Cute_Button- I can't see a later report. What are the farmer's journal using as their source?

reilig

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm not certain- but the figures in the Department's 2007 Annual Report would bear out the 8% figure quoted by Cute_Button- I can't see a later report. What are the farmer's journal using as their source?

I don't know what they're using. I will dig it out this evening and get their source and post it up.

The_Conductor

reilig wrote: »

Sorry to contradict you, but Cleaning staff and contract staff in the Civil Service are paid JLC rates. The lowest JLC rate lies at least 50c per hour above the minimum wage.

50c an hour above minimum- applies to to permanent staff only (in some cases they may even get higher). The contract cleaners (80-85% of all) get minimum. Anyhow- why are we arguing over 50c?

The_Conductor

reilig wrote: »

I don't know what they're using. I will dig it out this evening and get their source and post it up.

Department of Agriculture Annual Review 2009 here

Page 11 shows total expenditure voted and direct payments by the Department of EUR 3,561.9m, of which Administration accounts for EUR303.86m

I'm not sure if its identical to the figures quoted by Cute_Button- but its less than 9% of the total.

S.

dvpower

murf313 wrote: »

so you think its fair to have a pay cut across the board then?

Yes. With more pain for the better off.

Riskymove wrote: »

well i was coming more from the angle that the poster was implying

i.e. implying that average public sector pay is €50,000 means that the "typical" public sector worker you know of is earning that...

Not implied at all.


I do think that the public sector pay bill is unaffordable. We can no longer afford the level of public services that we could a few years ago and since much of public spending goes on salaries and allowances, cuts are inevitable.

This should mean both head count reductions and salary reductions. I don't think there is scope for big reductions for 'average' public servants and most head count reductions can come from natural wastage, so long as public servants are flexable in terms of redeployments and demarkation issues.

irish_bob

seamus wrote: »

Not so much any more. Prices have dropped and are still dropping across most goods and services. It's a chicken and egg scenario. If people can't afford to €1 for a pint of milk, then the shops will start selling them at 85c.

Supply and demand economics affects increases and decreases. The argument that we need to be paid more because we're more expensive ignores the fact that if we're paid less (like most of us now are), then the cost of goods will consequently drop to match.

+1

you often here defender of our high dole and high public sector wages say cutting either is imposible as the cost of living is so high , unlike the state , the market reacts quickly to drops in peoples purchasing power , two years ago a car dealer could charge about 17 k for a 12 month old ford focus , he would be looking at it indefinatley today if he were to ask more than 14 for it , the same goes with groceries , the reason shop keepers can charge so much for household items is because both working people and wellfare recipients have so much disposable income in thier pockets , business people unlike the state live and die by the market , it is simply the way of things