you are bord snip your 10 biggest cuts?

Jugs82

1. Cutting of Social Welfare Payments linked to the Cost of Living
2. Tax on 2nd and subsequent properties
3. Decrease of Standard VAT rate
4. Abolish agreements in place whereby public servants get increases based on agreements put in place 1-2 years ago - they do not apply now!
5. Large Scale re-organisation of the public service, replace dead-wood & key - link renumeration to the private sector equivilant looking at other countries also
6. Major clampdown on Welfare Fraud
7. Re-intorducton of a SSIA style scheme, not a carbon copy of the last but perhaps with a 10 - 12.5 % return, this would give the govt the necessary funds to make NAMA workable
8. Public Sector Pensions - move to make them less costly to the govt by putting the onus on the individual to make voluntary contributions, the current system is not sustainable
9. Introduce a scheme of building/renovating key infrastructure - schools, roll-out of broadband, roads etc.. - this would in turn create jobs, give a needed boost to the construction industry and be of use to the population/country as a whole
10. Abolish the vast majority of needless Quango's (i think thats the term for them) many serve no purpose while others are just self serving!!

solice

My ten points:

1 - Immediately reduce all PS pay by 20% across the board. Carryout a second benchmarking process and realign PS pay to private sector. If the results of the benchmark indicate that your salary should have been reduced by less than 20% then you get some money back. Carry out benchmarking every 2 years.

2 - Cap PS salaries at 200k maximum!

3 - Set up a dedicated PS Pension Fund and pension contributions made by PS employees should only go to the fund. Their pension would be dependent on its results. Or end the state pension for new entrants. In a different thread I indicated that even with the current pension levy, it is very unlikely that a new entrant will contribute enough to match the pension they receive.

4 – End the job for life mentality that exists in the PS. All jobs should be given to people who deserve them and time served is not a measure of someones quality and expertise. Performance reviews should be implemented and people who are below par should be made fired. They should not receive redundancy payment.

5 - Dail reform, we need efficiency and competency from our politicians. Cut their summer holiday to 4 weeks. This would allow them ample time for actual R&R and time to hold clinics. Make it mandatory to sit in the Dail for a set duration over the period of a 5 year term. Reduce the salaries in line with other EU countries. Reduce the number of TDs, we are over represented and under supported.

6 - Centralise the shared services (accounts payable, billing, HR, etc.) functions of county and city councils.

7 - Merge similar state agencies, IDA/Enterprise Ireland/Shannon Development/Udaras na Gaeltachta, Tourism Ireland/Bord Failte/Shannon Development, Dept of Health/HSE and other health bodies. Eliminate wasteful agencies and carry out a staff rationalisation.

8 – All PS employees should be given a general contract or a stipulation should be added to all contracts regardless of office or dept. that ensures the state has control to move people to where the resources are required regardless of current location and without compensation. Compensation should only be given for a requested move if the move is temporary and the commuting distance is more than a set distance, eg Carlow to Dublin…If you are unwilling to move, then you are unwilling to work and you should be let go!

9 – Revise the mandate of the County/City Enterprise Boards. Let SMEs access funding through these boards in order to maintain employment. They have the necessary skills and infrastructure to do this. I don’t see the point in setting up new bodies to do this.

10 – Sell of certain state assets including VHI and RTE. They are drains on our economy and wont become effective players until they are run efficiently and competitively. Our government doesn’t have the capabilities to do either.

Tommy T

Solice, points 1-4 and 6 are about as likely to happen as a member of Zanu FF taking responsibility...:D

gerry28

Immediately reduce all PS pay by 20% across the board.

I'm off out to the garage to get my placard ready, shift up in the bed TEEU

Riskymove

Jugs82 wrote: »

4. Abolish agreements in place whereby public servants get increases based on agreements put in place 1-2 years ago - they do not apply now!

ah..thats been done latest pay deal binned

8. Public Sector Pensions - move to make them less costly to the govt by putting the onus on the individual to make voluntary contributions, the current system is not sustainable

difficult to do for people already in system who don't have the time to fund their own....perhaps for new entrants..

10. Abolish the vast majority of needless Quango's (i think thats the term for them) many serve no purpose while others are just self serving!!

definitely needs to be reviewed

Riskymove

1 - Immediately reduce all PS pay by 20% across the board. Carryout a second benchmarking process and realign PS pay to private sector. If the results of the benchmark indicate that your salary should have been reduced by less than 20% then you get some money back. Carry out benchmarking every 2 years.

what if they found it should be increased?

2 - Cap PS salaries at 200k maximum!

good grief....how much do you think public servants get?

3 - Or end the state pension for new entrants. I

the more likely option alright

4 – End the job for life mentality that exists in the PS. All jobs should be given to people who deserve them and time served is not a measure of someones quality and expertise. Performance reviews should be implemented and people who are below par should be made fired. They should not receive redundancy payment.

seniority promotions effectively gone in, Civil service at least

5 - Dail reform,

needed badly

6 - Centralise the shared services (accounts payable, billing, HR, etc.) functions of county and city councils.

very good idea

mrgaa1

1. reduce the number of TD's. there are approx 60million people in uk with 644 MP's. thats roughly 94000 people per MP. So taking this ratio and 5million in Ireland we'd need 48 TD's minimum.
2. Remove all town and county councils and have provincial councils.
3. reduce VAT to 10% for the next 3 years. Then have one VAT rate of 15% thereafter
4. SSIA to be re-introduced immediately
5. All civil servants to take a minimum 10% pay cut for the next 3 years.
6. minimum wage to be cut by 30% minimum
7. remove airport tax - we need more tourists
8. run a national lottery once a month where the money goes to the government to pay off debt. Offer huge prizes as incentives and ensure a few roll-overs
9. introduce a huge rebuilding project encompassing broadband, schools and infrastructure - borrow if we have to but this will help our future
10. more foreign investment by any means possible

JonathanAnon

mrgaa1 wrote: »

3. reduce VAT to 10% for the next 3 years. Then have one VAT rate of 15% thereafter

While this might seem like a good idea, you have to factor in the fact that small businesses have to then pay their software companies to implement these changes to their software, which is not always so easy.

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

what if they found it should be increased?




good grief....how much do you think public servants get?

If benchmarking indicated that they should receive a pay increase then they should. I doubt that would happen. But I would hope the decision would come from a report of actual facts instead of peoples opinions.

There are public servants who earn a lot of money!

Riskymove

If benchmarking indicated that they should receive a pay increase then they should. I doubt that would happen. But I would hope the decision would come from a report of actual facts instead of peoples opinions.

thats the problem though isn't it....I think benchmarking was a ridiculous idea in the first place, a real Bertie vote buying move...it should consigned to the bin.. not run again

There are public servants who earn a lot of money!

not too many get a pension of €200k though!!, that would suggest a salary of €400,000, I doubt there are too many at that level

I am a civil servant and the highest paid is around 250k I think and thats a head of a department.

I see no reason why pensions could not be capped at much lower than €200k

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

not too many get a pension of €200k though!!, that would suggest a salary of €400,000, I doubt there are too many at that level

I am a civil servant and the highest paid is around 250k I think and thats a head of a department.

I see no reason why pensions could not be capped at much lower than €200k

I didnt say that. I said this

solice wrote: »

2 - Cap PS salaries at 200k maximum!

I believe that benchmarking aided our downfall and I believe it will aid our rising as well. Unions can be forced to accept benchmarking in order to reduce salaries but I doubt they will take salary cuts without benchmarking to back it up

Riskymove

solice wrote: »

I didnt say that. I said this

ah...apologies...read it as pensions for some reason

Tim Robbins

goldenbrown wrote: »

mine would be
overseas aid paused fully for 6 years

That would be a disgrace. The greedy Irish would be rightfully scorned throughout the world.

Mine would be:

1. Any civil servant earning over 100K a year has their wage severely reduced. This should be something that is given all party support.
Reductions should be between 15 and 50% and brought in line with EU averages.
2. Medium cuts to those between 60 and 100K. Between 5 and 25%.
3. Small cuts to those under 60K. 5 - 10%.
4. Rationalisation of qangos.
5. Reduce number of TDs to 100.
6.

Riskymove

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That would be a disgrace. The greedy Irish would be rightfully scorned throughout the world.

Mine would be:

1. Any civil servant earning over 100K a year has their wage severely reduced. This should be something that is given all party support.
Reductions should be between 15 and 50% and brought in line with EU averages.
2. Medium cuts to those between 60 and 100K. Between 5 and 25%.
3. Small cuts to those under 60K. 5 - 10%.
4. Rationalisation of qangos.
5. Reduce number of TDs to 100.
6.

Agree about Foreign aid, it should be continued


25% pay cut...a "medium cut"...lol


I hear a lot about bringing pay in line with EU averages but I don't see how this can ever work right. how much a public (I presume you mean public rather than civil) servant earns in latvia have much connection to here etc

while people want to see pay cuts I think its inevitable that the pay bill will be tackled as it always has been, through numbers; natural wastage, the early retirement scheme etc

Tim Robbins

Riskymove wrote: »

Agree about Foreign aid, it should be continued


25% pay cut...a "medium cut"...lol


I hear a lot about bringing pay in line with EU averages but I don't see how this can ever work right. how much a public (I presume you mean public rather than civil) servant earns in latvia have much connection to here etc

while people want to see pay cuts I think its inevitable that the pay bill will be tackled as it always has been, through numbers; natural wastage, the early retirement scheme etc

Well how are we supposed to compete in a European Economy if we are the most expensive place to do business?

How would Cork be expected to compete in an Irish economy if it was 50% more expensive than the rest of the country?

Lative is an interesting example. The IMF made Lative cut all civil service pay by 15% in order for it to keep borrowing.

How would the Irish like that? (It's likely this will come in the next few years if the gov don't do it).

Note I think the gov should made big cuts in public service pay and then have tax credits for any of the public service that have an existing morgage.

jimmmy

solice wrote: »

I believe that benchmarking aided our downfall

I agree with you there. No wonder our economy is rotten, with the highest paid politicians and government employees ( not to mention retired public servants ) in the known world. The biggest cuts should be concentrated on the public service, the retired public service, politicians, quangos etc. There will be a revolution otherwise. Mark my words.

Tim Robbins

jimmmy wrote: »

I agree with you there. No wonder our economy is rotten, with the highest paid politicians and government employees ( not to mention retired public servants ) in the known world.

The reason why Zimbabwe spiralled into hyper inflation was because Mugabe insisting on over paying all his hench men from the public exchequer.

solice

jimmmy wrote: »

I agree with you there. No wonder our economy is rotten, with the highest paid politicians and government employees ( not to mention retired public servants ) in the known world.

What part of the world is unknown?

I agree with RiskyMove on this, you cant bring PS pay in line with EU averages. I dont understand why people are in love with the word average...its very misleading! PS pay needs to be reduced, by how much we can all only guess. But it should be brought in line with private sector salaries and then maybe a little less for the job security aspect.

The example with Latvia is a very good example, what is the private sector "average" *shudder* salary there? Would private sector workerd be willing to accept Latvian wages?

25% paycut is hardly a medium range paycut.

Bringing private and public salaries together will bring stability to the economy and will help bring inflation/deflation under control.

Riskymove

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well how are we supposed to compete in a European Economy if we are the most expensive place to do business?

.

we reduce costs, I am not disagreeing about that concept, just the method

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

There will be a revolution otherwise. Mark my words.

I am shaking already jimmmy

jimmmy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The reason why Zimbabwe spiralled into hyper inflation was because Mugabe insisting on over paying all his hench men from the public exchequer.

Mugabe printed too much paper money with nothing to back it up. Plus he payed himself and his employees too much, not unlike Bertie and co. Would our economy have overheated so much but for the excessive salaries / pace set by benchmarking ?

Riskymove

solice wrote: »

But it should be brought in line with private sector salaries and then maybe a little less for the job security aspect.

but his is what gets me, in the last benchmarking exercise that aspect was dealt with but people keep ignoring that fact

benchmarking is full of problems and hence why it became the Bertie ATM model. I cannot see how it can ever work properly as people think.

Whats the private equivalent of a Garda?
Whats the private equivalent of a Civil servant?

Tim Robbins

solice wrote: »

What part of the world is unknown?

I agree with RiskyMove on this, you cant bring PS pay in line with EU averages. I dont understand why people are in love with the word average...its very misleading! PS pay needs to be reduced, by how much we can all only guess. But it should be brought in line with private sector salaries. The example with Latvia is a very good example, what is the private sector "average" *shudder* salary there? Would private sector workerd be willing to accept Latvian wages?

Bringing private and public salaries together will bring stability to the economy and will help bring inflation/deflation under control.

Absolute nonsense.

1. Private sector pay should be higher on the basis that your terms and conditions are a lot worse.

2. Private sector use much more prone to economic cycles. So you are likely to struggle to keep your job every 5 years. There ain't no job for life.

3. Private sector companies involve a lot mre risk taking. This means they are more likely to fail and go bust. They only way they will take a risk is if the reward for success is worth it. A director in a private company should be on far more than a head of a department.

4. In the private sector you are continuosly reviewed with respect to how well you are doing at your job. You are never guarenteed a wage increase.

So if you get one, you should be getting more than the guarenteed public people who don't put themselves of being in the risk of not getting one when everyone else at their level is.

5. In the private sector you can only vote with your feet. In the public service, if you don't like what you are getting paid, rather than go to the hassel of filling out your CV and hope to get an interview, you can vote to go on strike. You can also en masse vote out your employer at the next general election.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Mugabe printed too much paper money with nothing to back it up. Plus he payed himself and his employees too much,

I suppose the second thing is what did it rather than the first?

jimmmy

solice wrote: »

I agree with RiskyMove on this, you cant bring PS pay in line with EU averages.

Why not ? Or even below EC averages if the need arises ? At the moment our politicians and public service are already fat, being the highest paid politicians and public servants in the world. A bit of reality is needed.

Riskymove

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

absolute nonsense? oh of course the "private sector" is best

The "private sector" is an enormously broad economy and you are generalising here. Just like the term "public sector"


1. Private sector pay should be higher on the basis that your terms and conditions are a lot worse.

2. Private sector use much more prone to economic cycles. So you are likely to struggle to keep your job every 5 years. There ain't no job for life.


1&2 not always the case; there are parts of the private sector with similar or even better terms and conditions than parts of the public sector

I now people in the private sector all their career, they certainly never struggled every 5 years




4. In the private sector you are continuosly reviewed with respect to how well you are doing at your job. You are never guarenteed a wage increase.

there was a good article in the times last week about perfromance review and how badly it works and how it is a lot more uncommon in the private sector than is generally believed.

having said that i agree reform of the public service is required in relation to how it is managed and issues like underperfromance is dealt with

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

but his is what gets me, in the last benchmarking exercise that aspect was dealt with but people keep ignoring that fact

benchmarking is full of problems and hence why it became the Bertie ATM model. I cannot see how it can ever work properly as people think.

Whats the private equivalent of a Garda?
Whats the private equivalent of a Civil servant?

The problem with Benchmarking 1 was that it gave PS employees a pay increase and continued increases with incremental salaries. There was no leeway to account for deflation or economic downturns. Thats why the agreement should be reworked with Benchmarking 2 stating PS salaries should be in line with inflation and deflation or else carry out benchmarking every two years.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

1. Private sector pay should be higher on the basis that your terms and conditions are a lot worse.

2. Private sector use much more prone to economic cycles. So you are likely to struggle to keep your job every 5 years. There ain't no job for life.

3. Private sector companies involve a lot mre risk taking. This means they are more likely to fail and go bust. They only way they will take a risk is if the reward for success is worth it. A director in a private company should be on far more than a head of a department.

4. In the private sector you are continuosly reviewed with respect to how well you are doing at your job. You are never guarenteed a wage increase.

So if you get one, you should be getting more than the guarenteed public people who don't put themselves of being in the risk of not getting one when everyone else at their level is.

I said it myself and I didnt agree with it. I edited my post probably while you were writing your comment above saying that PS salaries should be brought in line with private sector and then reduced further because of the security that comes with the job. What is the value on job security? Alot in this climate but would have been less 5 years ago. So...carry out a second round of benchmarking.


I dont like benchmarking either. But unions readily accepted it last time. They cant turn their back on it and say its a sham now! As much as I hate unions, they are a necessary evil and they must be won over if we have any hope of keeping the country ticking over

jimmmy

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.

1. Private sector pay should be higher on the basis that your terms and conditions are a lot worse.

2. Private sector use much more prone to economic cycles. So you are likely to struggle to keep your job every 5 years. There ain't no job for life.

3. Private sector companies involve a lot mre risk taking. This means they are more likely to fail and go bust. They only way they will take a risk is if the reward for success is worth it. A director in a private company should be on far more than a head of a department.

4. In the private sector you are continuosly reviewed with respect to how well you are doing at your job. You are never guarenteed a wage increase.

So if you get one, you should be getting more than the guarenteed public people who don't put themselves of being in the risk of not getting one when everyone else at their level is.

5. In the private sector you can only vote with your feet. In the public service, if you don't like what you are getting paid, rather than go to the hassel of filling out your CV and hope to get an interview, you can vote to go on strike. You can also en masse vote out your employer at the next general election.

Excellent points well made. It is why in most countries public service pay is less than private sector pay......which is correct of course. In Ireland public sector pay of course is not only the other way around, but considerably more so. Our economy could not be right.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Why not ? Or even below EC averages if the need arises ? At the moment our politicians and public service are already fat, being the highest paid politicians and public servants in the world. A bit of reality is needed.

but we cannot just say, oh the EU average is X so now we'll pay public servants that, given the broad range of type of work, pay levels etc

solice

jimmmy wrote: »

Why not ? Or even below EC averages if the need arises ? At the moment our politicians and public service are already fat, being the highest paid politicians and public servants in the world. A bit of reality is needed.

Because Ireland is an expensive place. Having 2 groups in society, one earning 20% more than the other wont change the fact that Ireland is an expensive place. A shop keeper will charge the maximum that people will pay. Reducing them to the same base or having the same scale will be far more beneficial for the country.

Jimmy, say something new please