you are bord snip your 10 biggest cuts?

Riskymove

solice wrote: »

The problem with Benchmarking 1 was that it gave PS employees a pay increase and continued increases with incremental salaries. There was no leeway to account for deflation or economic downturns. Thats why the agreement should be reworked with Benchmarking 2 stating PS salaries should be in line with inflation and deflation or else carry out benchmarking every two years.

you seem to be missing my point that there has been 2 benchmarking exercises and that the issue of an allowance for job security was taken into account

I dont like benchmarking either. But unions readily accepted it last time. They cant turn their back on it and say its a sham now!

they were being offered free money for their members by bertie the fixer, who would say no?

at least we can see now what it lead to; I would have no confidence in it going forward. Most people want it as they are assuming it would suggest a high cut in PS pay but I am not so sure

The_Conductor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That would be a disgrace. The greedy Irish would be rightfully scorned throughout the world.

What do you propose- leaving foreign aid at an absolute sum- or maintain the linkage to GNP- which looks like it may be down 15% this year alone.......

Anyhow- how are we greedy- when almost 60% of our expenditure is funded by borrowing. Its a simple fact- we need to cut expenditure- all expenditure. There should be no sacred cows- none.

S.

Tim Robbins

Riskymove wrote: »

a
I now people in the private sector all their career, they certainly never struggled every 5 years

Well then are working in an uncompetitive parts of the private sector such as Pharmacists or Doctors and in which case I agree with you. These sectors are worse than the public sector. They shaft all of us.

there was a good article in the times last week about perfromance review and how badly it works and how it is a lot more uncommon in the private sector than is generally believed.

See above.

Riskymove

smccarrick wrote: »

What do you propose- leaving foreign aid at an absolute sum- or maintain the linkage to GNP- which looks like it may be down 15% this year alone.......

Anyhow- how are we greedy- when almost 60% of our expenditure is funded by borrowing. Its a simple fact- we need to cut expenditure- all expenditure. There should be no sacred cows- none.

S.

the fact is we were talking about a proposal to stop foreign aid completely for a period of time. I believe that would be wrong.

Just like I disagree with taking aim at the most vulnerable at home I would disagree with the idea here

Riskymove

Tim Robbins wrote: »

See above.

nope he was talking about areas, including multi-nationals

now I am talking about performance review systems here not the handling of under-performance generally

Tim Robbins

smccarrick wrote: »

What do you propose- leaving foreign aid at an absolute sum- or maintain the linkage to GNP- which looks like it may be down 15% this year alone.......

Anyhow- how are we greedy- when almost 60% of our expenditure is funded by borrowing. Its a simple fact- we need to cut expenditure- all expenditure. There should be no sacred cows- none.

S.

Because no-one in Ireland will ever be hungry. Pick any third world country and read about it.

Also, I am rational humanist. I don't believe in some divine irrational principle that an Irish person has more of a right to be fed than a Zimbabwian just because they're Irish. Humans are humans, irrespective of colour, creed or geoghrapical birth place.

Tim Robbins

Riskymove wrote: »

nope he was talking about areas, including multi-nationals

now I am talking about performance review systems here not the handling of under-performance generally

Well I didn't read the article. But I have a quite a large sample set of my own and they all point to they're being performance reviews.

Obviously ina very big company, it becomes harder and harder to differentiate between talent and hard work, but their processes are usually better than anything I have heard about in the public service which doesn't operate on the incentive of efficiency.

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

at least we can see now what it lead to; I would have no confidence in it going forward. Most people want it as they are assuming it would suggest a high cut in PS pay but I am not so sure

But it would keep some people quiet!

jimmmy

solice wrote: »

Because Ireland is an expensive place.

Go abroad for you holidays like all the public servants do so, buy everything online or abroad or up north.

solice wrote: »

Having 2 groups in society, one earning 20% more than the other wont change the fact that Ireland is an expensive place.

awwww

solice wrote: »

A shop keeper will charge the maximum that people will pay.

Leave the public service + set up and undercut that shopkeeper and make your fortune.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Go abroad for you holidays like all the public servants do so, buy everything online or abroad or up north.


awwww


Leave the public service + set up and undercut that shopkeeper and make your fortune.

ah jimmmy, jimmmy, jimmmy

... your prejudices blind you to the fact that not everyone who disagrees with you is in the public service

jimmmy

lol lol lol. The point is that " Ireland is an expensive place " cannot be used as a valid excuse for the excessive wages currently enjoyed by a cossetted section in this society.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

lol lol lol. The point is that " Ireland is an expensive place " cannot be used as a valid excuse for the excessive wages currently enjoyed by a cossetted section in this society.

jimmmy, I suggest you go back and read Solice's 10 suggestions earlier in this thread and see if she is makning any case for wages to be kept at current levels.

MrJetlag

If I was an bord snip nua I'd get rid of the Govt.

The remind me of parasites - like pubic lice.

The recession wont touch them with the wages and perks that they are are on, while the rest of us suffer as the whole ****house goes up in flames.

Jugs82

+ 1 that Foreign Aid should not be removed completly

Its always important to remember that no matter how bad things are at the moment that there are millions upon millions in a far worse state

What do people think about the re-introduction of an SSIA style scheme? my one worry is 'could the govt pay out after 4-5 years??

Riskymove

Jugs82 wrote: »

What do people think about the re-introduction of an SSIA style scheme? my one worry is 'could the govt pay out after 4-5 years??

what i wonder is how, if things are really as bad as is made out, people could afford to save similar amounts to last time

solice

Riskymove wrote: »

ah jimmmy, jimmmy, jimmmy

... your prejudices blind you to the fact that not everyone who disagrees with you is in the public service

And that some people in the public service do agree with you Jimmy. And they are able to put forward reasoned arguments for your cause. But I am glad you dropped the 966 thing, I read it so much I was begining to repeat it in my head, "All work and no play make solice 966"

Jugs82 wrote: »

What do people think about the re-introduction of an SSIA style scheme? my one worry is 'could the govt pay out after 4-5 years??

I think its a brillant idea. It would have to be modified though, maybe make it a 10 year program?

jimmmy

Riskymove wrote: »

what i wonder is how, if things are really as bad as is made out, people could afford to save similar amounts to last time

Its a two tier state, not unlike apartheid. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the country who are not feeling the pinch, who have secure jobs paid more than any of their counterparts in other public services elsewhere in the world, and who are enjoying falling prices and an artifically high standard of living.

solice

jimmmy wrote: »

Its a two tier state, not unlike apartheid. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the country who are not feeling the pinch, who have secure jobs paid more than any of their counterparts in other public services elsewhere in the world, and who are enjoying falling prices and an artifically high standard of living.

Apartheid? Really?!

Careful now, you are teetering on the edge of Godwins.

Riskymove

jimmmy wrote: »

Its a two tier state, not unlike apartheid. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the country who are not feeling the pinch, who have secure jobs paid more than any of their counterparts in other public services elsewhere in the world, and who are enjoying falling prices and an artifically high standard of living.

so now public service is like apartheid....you truely are something else jimmmy


those bank presidents, Multi-national CEOs, barristers etc must all be shivering at night dreaming of the life of a clerical officer

The_Conductor

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Because no-one in Ireland will ever be hungry. Pick any third world country and read about it.

Also, I am rational humanist. I don't believe in some divine irrational principle that an Irish person has more of a right to be fed than a Zimbabwian just because they're Irish. Humans are humans, irrespective of colour, creed or geoghrapical birth place.

And what about the expression- Charity starts at home? I pass I'd guess over 20 people sleeping in doorways every morning- and occasionally stop to listen to their stories. Most of these are Irish. The stories of sexual abuse, broken homes, alcoholism and drug addiction- all within a couple of hundred yards of Dail Eireann- are heart breaking. Even the local Gardai try to help feed some of the youngsters who have nowhere to go. Numbers of homeless are increasing almost on a daily basis- and they are congregating in Dublin- its estimated there are several thousand already. The shelters are full- and have had the little bit of funding they got- cut. Why should my tax put food on a table in Harare, instead of providing help to some of the unfortunates in Dublin?

I was debating this with someone who coordinates fund raising for a local charity- and she told me that charitable donations to local (and international) charities are in freefall. Simultaneously lottery ticket sales are increasing. People are using the negative sentiment associated with the current economic climate- to take a punt on the lotto- instead of continuing to support their charities as they have done during better days. Certain charities are doing fine- they are seen as being PC, while other charities- who often provide the small support structures that those who have nothing else whatsoever need- such as the St. Vincent de Paul and the Simon Community, are being hit hardest- just when they are being called upon to do more than they have ever needed to do.......

To tar people with the 'greedy' tag- because they support cutting the Irish developmental budget- is simply being blissfully ignorant of how bad things are in Ireland itself- and how many of our people who never benefited from the economic boom- who are now being ignored in doorways or down alleys at night.

If you genuinely think that there are no people, adults and children, in Ireland, who go hungry on a daily basis- you are very sadly mistaken.

goldenbrown

is a true story, i was visiting an overseas aid person in africa, he flew up and down to an interview in london for some other comfortable job in aid in the same day, business class, overseas aid is often about the cute hoors sitting on the choo choo gravy train, not always but often, (apologies if you recognize yourself brother - they day is long gone when i hung out with the types one of my siblings circulates among...I have become more of an eamonn gilmore type of irishperson, in those days I was too young to know the difference

jimmmy

goldenbrown wrote: »

is a true story, i was visiting an overseas aid person in africa, he flew up and down to an interview in london for some other comfortable job in aid in the same day, business class, overseas aid is often about the cute hoors sitting on the choo choo gravy train, not always but often, (apologies if you recognize yourself brother - they day is long gone when i hung out with the types one of my siblings circulates among...I have become more of an eamonn gilmore type of irishperson, in those days I was too young to know the difference

good point....oh, and do not forget much overseas aid gets siphoned off in to the governments of those third world countries.

Tim Robbins

smccarrick wrote: »

And what about the expression- Charity starts at home?

It's stupid and not grounded in logic but rhetoric.

What about that expression:
"We live in a global village".

Chuck the expression and try to work through the rights and wrongs logically my friend.

I pass I'd guess over 20 people sleeping in doorways every morning- and occasionally stop to listen to their stories. Most of these are Irish. The stories of sexual abuse, broken homes, alcoholism and drug addiction- all within a couple of hundred yards of Dail Eireann- are heart breaking. Even the local Gardai try to help feed some of the youngsters who have nowhere to go. Numbers of homeless are increasing almost on a daily basis- and they are congregating in Dublin- its estimated there are several thousand already. The shelters are full- and have had the little bit of funding they got- cut. Why should my tax put food on a table in Harare, instead of providing help to some of the unfortunates in Dublin?

YOu haven't answered the question why you differentiate in the first place. Just because you personally have to deal with something by seeing it doesn't mean it's more important. That's just a selfish insular way of thinking.

If you didn't exist, you wouldn't see those problems, does that make the problems better or worse?

Neither of course.

To tar people with the 'greedy' tag- because they support cutting the Irish developmental budget- is simply being blissfully ignorant of how bad things are in Ireland itself- and how many of our people who never benefited from the economic boom- who are now being ignored in doorways or down alleys at night.

What nonsense.

Fixing Irish problems isn't all about money. I've done a good bit of volunteering over the years for a range of charities. Some things are possible based on location. For example, I gave Maths grinds to kids from the inner city for free. I couldn't do this for kid in Zimbabwe. The only thing I can do is to a support a charity finacially that can do it.

Similarly, other approaches such as getting loads of petitions and letters sent to human rights abusers can be an effective way to put pressure on rogue governments where in the case of Ireland, it makes more sense to think about who you vote for.

The inescapable fact is that Ireland is a greedy 1st world country. Does that mean human lumps of DNA have any more right than other lumps of human DNA. No - to think so is racist.

If you genuinely think that there are no people, adults and children, in Ireland, who go hungry on a daily basis- you are very sadly mistaken.

There's very few. Pick any country in Africa and it would beat any part of Ireland hands down.

do you read at all?

Tim Robbins

goldenbrown wrote: »

is a true story, i was visiting an overseas aid person in africa, he flew up and down to an interview in london for some other comfortable job in aid in the same day, business class, overseas aid is often about the cute hoors sitting on the choo choo gravy train, not always but often, (apologies if you recognize yourself brother - they day is long gone when i hung out with the types one of my siblings circulates among...I have become more of an eamonn gilmore type of irishperson, in those days I was too young to know the difference

There's a range of NGO's working with humanitarian aid. You are taking an anecdote and making generalisations.

The_Conductor

Tim- there is no need to be personally abusive towards me. I didn't post any details of work I do in Ireland and elsewhere- nor do I intend to. I do not need to justify myself or my actions.

If people want to personally support various charities or causes- fair play to them- the point I was making is that the Irish exchequer is up the creek- we are paying 6% on every penny we borrow, and we're borrowing just shy of EUR26 billion- this year alone. Next year- 18% of all our tax receipts will go directly towards paying the interest on our national debt- 22% in 2011 and 25% in 2012 (this is assuming the inept figures from the Department of Finance are half accurate- they could be a lot worse).

Personally I think people should make a conscious decision to support specific charities- and then make sure they follow through on their decisions. This is then a personal choice for that person- and they know where their donation (be it financial or otherwise) is going- which is preferable to a portion of our taxes simply vanishing somewhere.

Vis-a-vis differentiating between Irish and other people- I actually wasn't. I was responding to "Because no-one in Ireland will ever be hungry". Its a sweeping generalisation and factually untrue.

I do not need to pick a third world country and read about it- I've lived in several and visited others. I am very unfortunately only too aware of many of the human hardship and suffering that rarely is reported by anyone.

Tim Robbins

smccarrick wrote: »

Tim- there is no need to be personally abusive towards me. I didn't post any details of work I do in Ireland and elsewhere- nor do I intend to. I do not need to justify myself or my actions.

Abusive? I attacked your post not you.

Personally I think people should make a conscious decision to support specific charities- and then make sure they follow through on their decisions. This is then a personal choice for that person- and they know where their donation (be it financial or otherwise) is going- which is preferable to a portion of our taxes simply vanishing somewhere.

You were actually arguing stopping Irish foriegn aid.

Vis-a-vis differentiating between Irish and other people- I actually wasn't. I was responding to "Because no-one in Ireland will ever be hungry". Its a sweeping generalisation and factually untrue.

Name me 5 people who have died of starvation in Ireland in the last year?

It's statisically unlikely that anyone will die of starvation in Ireland. We also have far longer life expectancy and very low infant mortality.

I do not need to pick a third world country and read about it- I've lived in several and visited others. I am very unfortunately only too aware of many of the human hardship and suffering that rarely is reported by anyone.

Well you do not have one logical point to support your original views.

I strongly suggest reading books, seeing things through rose tinted western glasses on holiday doesn't really help any sort of understanding about any humanitarian problem.

Read a good book and you'll have a much better understanding of the problems. Here's a good one for starters:
One World, Peter Singer.

nesf

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Abusive? I attacked your post not you.

You didn't limit yourself to his post and in several places attacked him. Please limit yourself to dealing with someone's points.

Tim Robbins

nesf wrote: »

You didn't limit yourself to his post and in several places attacked him. Please limit yourself to dealing with someone's points.

OK apologies. I'll be more careful in future. I thought what I wrote was ok, but obviously it wasn't.

Apologies again.

Executive Steve

transylman wrote: »

Slash all social welfare payments, by up to 20% in some cases.
Means tested benefits.
Means tested college fees.
Cut health spending and introduce cost saving programmes.
Freeze on public sector pay (should be cut but they don't have the balls)
Cut number of managerial positions in public sector, as well as overall staff reductions.
Drop the minimuum wage level. (not going to bring in more money but needed for competitiveness)
No more major infrastructure projects other than those already started.

Don't agree with all of the above but it has to be done because we are deep, deep, deep in the $hitter.

I do love the way noone has figured out that means-testing is a long and drawn out process that takes a lot of time and effort to do, and the mass adoptation of it for welfare, benefits and entitlements and for college fees would probably cost a lot more than it would save, in public sector salaries alone, not to mention the cost of training and hiring new public sector employees to take on the additional work of all the means testing.

Tim Robbins

I think revenue could raise a few quic by going after landlords not making tax returns.
Let's say, the average landlord should be paying about 3K in tax per year on their letting.

Let's say there about 250K lettings in the state.

Let's say half pay tax half don;t.

So 125K * 3K is 375 million, they could get.

A few threathening ads on the tv would cost them 50K. So it would be a good revenue spinner me thinks.