Would you train MMA with someone with no experience?

David Jones

Pretty much what title says. Would you train somewhere specifically advertised as an MMA gym, where no one has any MMA experience or even thorough Jiu Jitsu experience. Comes from a TMA background and is "cashing in" on the MMA wave much like people did with Ninjas, Karate Kid, Bruce Lee etc. And if someone from another school goes down to check it out they end up doing most of the instruction? Just interested to hear peoples thoughts.

Perfect fit

I dont think its essential to have fought in mma, but they would have to have a thorough understanding. Some people can watch a sport and pick up the finer points and understand everything about it but may not have the athletisism to compete themselves. But i think the guys "cashing in" get found out very quickly when they dont know what there talking about!

Hail 2 Da Chimp

TBH I have before, I have trained in a traditional Karate club, where the guys themselves were interested in MMA, were taking BJJ lessions for a while and decided they'd start to train it themselves.
They were completly honest about their backgrounds, experience and were totally in it to learn themselves - which is how I'd imagine most MMA clubs in Ireland started out.

Jason Mc

It's such a new sport that I would say yes but it depends on the individual and the application of what they do.

I look at guys like Greg Nelson or Greg Jackson and to my knowledge they haven't fought an MMA match and I for sure would train with them.

It depends what traditional art the person has done I suppose and how good they were at it

cowzerp

No its not.

Good question and the main reason why i think there should be some governing body set up to make sure cowboys dont set up clubs because MMA is the buzz thing at the moment, the main people getting into this lately is TKD from what i've seen and its all about money and zero about the sport.

You can be a big fan of something without knowing the technical aspects of it, little things like knowing what its like to be getting ground and pound or knowing when traps are been set for your fighter.

its easy to join a club and get thought and take a few fights for real experience, without it you will always be lacking.

If someone just starts a club without fighting you've got to ask what are there motives?

BJJ just like any individual art is not MMA either so that cant be enough-a person with BJJ and Muay thai might be able to coach but should still get in the ring or cage to gain the experience of actual MMA.

David Jones

the main people getting into this is TKD

Funny you should say this.....:D

I personally wouldnt want to ask someone to fight MMA in a cage and represent NG without having been in there and done it. I dont think its fair to the individual because anything you impart to them is purely based on theory and not practice. David Ledbetter might not have made it on the pro golf circuit but he has played the game to a very high level and has a knack for spotting little changes that might make improvements to someones game, but its not just theory he has actually tried it.

I wouldnt take driving lessons from someone who hadnt driven, I wouldnt take rock climbing lessons from someone who knew all the knots etc but had never climbed.

On a different note, I think duping the public in what you teach and charging for it is a bigger crime against the sport.

Nothingcompares

If there was no where else to train I would.
If I didn't know any better than I wouldl.

Tim_Murphy

Some of the coaches I've learned most from have not fought MMA. I can certainly see Dave's point of view but ultimately I think a coach should be judged by the guys he trains IMO. If he has a stable of decent fighters then I think that says more about his ability as a coach than the amount of fights he's had himself.

Good question and the main reason why i think there should be some governing body set up to make sure cowboys dont set up clubs because MMA is the buzz thing at the moment, the main people getting into this lately is TKD from what i've seen and its all about money and zero about the sport.

Whilst I would be all for the idea of a decent governing body, it wouldn't be able to stop anybody opening a club and calling it MMA. Not being a member of the governing body might led people in the know to question the club but newbies coming in off the street won't know or care.

BJJ just like any individual art is not MMA either so that cant be enough-a person with BJJ and Muay thai might be able to coach but should still get in the ring or cage to gain the experience of actual MMA.

Exactly. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there who've only ever done BJJ but call their club a MMA club. Most people wouldn't bat an eyelid at this. Double standards anyone?

cowzerp

No its not.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Some of the coaches I've learned most from have not fought MMA. I can certainly see Dave's point of view but ultimately I think a coach should be judged by the guys he trains IMO. If he has a stable of decent fighters then I think that says more about his ability as a coach than the amount of fights he's had himself.

Good point Tim but there is no problem with a club having coaches that are say just a boxing coach or just a BJJ coach as they can teach the individual skills better but if a club has no MMA experience then that is an issue in my eyes, and as i said-why would they want to run an MMA club??

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Whilst I would be all for the idea of a decent governing body, it wouldn't be able to stop anybody opening a club and calling it MMA. Not being a member of the governing body might led people in the know to question the club but newbies coming in off the street won't know or care.

A committee could be set up and standards have to be met to be a member of the commitee, if a club has no member on the committee then they dont get on shows, also clubs can be outed for running without experience like on that site that exposes martial arts clubs.

ginoginelli

No its not.

Due to the expansion of the sport here and the larger variety of clubs to choose from, Id expect my insturctors to at least have had a few fights between them, a blue belt in bjj and its members to be competing on the national scene..

Does anyone know which category the newly opened "club un named" in Blackrock falls into? I cant get much info online about them..

cowzerp

No its not.

ginoginelli wrote: »

Due to the expansion of the sport here and the larger variety of clubs to choose from, Id expect my insturctors to at least have had a few fights between them, a blue belt in bjj and its members to be competing on the national scene..

Does anyone know which category the newly opened "club" in Blackrock falls into? I cant get much info online about them..

Im not been smart but they are not allowed to be talked about on here as they where unhappy at criticism they recieved and took legal action instead of proving they where the real deal so i,ve edited your post..

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

A committee could be set up and standards have to be met to be a member of the commitee, if a club has no member on the committee then they dont get on shows, also clubs can be outed for running without experience like on that site that exposes martial arts clubs.

That would be a crazy big can of worms. Who would decide what clubs go on there? A club could be excellent but just not a member of the governing body, as in the case in other MAs. Should they be on this list?

IMO any governing body that tries to be anyway controlling will just end up with only some clubs being members with others not bothering, or else you'd end up with mutliple associations and governing bodies, as is the case with just about every other MA in the country. No reason to think MMA would be any different.

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

Im not been smart but they are not allowed to be talked about on here as they where unhappy at criticism they recieved and took legal action instead of proving they where the real deal so i,ve edited your post..

What do you think their reaction would be to be put on a "name and shame" on some website?!

ginoginelli

No its not.

cowzerp wrote: »

Im not been smart but they are not allowed to be talked about on here as they where unhappy at criticism they recieved and took legal action instead of proving they where the real deal so i,ve edited your post..

No worries. Im getting a picture of the kind of club they are now..

cowzerp

No its not.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

That would be a crazy big can of worms. Who would decide what clubs go on there? A club could be excellent but just not a member of the governing body, as in the case in other MAs. Should they be on this list?

IMO any governing body that tries to be anyway controlling will just end up with only some clubs being members with others not bothering, or else you'd end up with mutliple associations and governing bodies, as is the case with just about every other MA in the country. No reason to think MMA would be any different.

Maybe Tim, im just brainstorming, something needs to be done either way.

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

What do you think their reaction would be to be put on a "name and shame" on some website?!

Its a boards issue but who's to say they cant be named and shamed else where, even Bebo!!

David Jones

IMO any governing body that tries to be anyway controlling will just end up with only some clubs being members with others not bothering, or else you'd end up with mutliple associations and governing bodies, as is the case with just about every other MA in the country. No reason to think MMA would be any different.

I pretty much said the same thing to Paul in a PM about half an hour ago. However, at the moment we have multiple associations, styles and governing bodies in the TMA area in Ireland. You only have to look at the pages of Irish Fighter to know that whether its Kenpo, TKD or Shotokan etc.

But we are heading down that route already in MMA without the presence of a governing body. We have people claiming to coach MMA who shouldnt be anywhere near the sport. Guys in combat Gi's with swords and guitars!!? Martial arts instructors who are trying to jump on the MMA bandwaggon, not getting involved because they particularly like the sport but because they see at as away to attract new members and make some cash.

Dyr

Didn't many of the now established MMA coaches in this country start running classes back when they had very little experience, qualifications or competition records? I think you'd need to define what the exact issue is first, is it unqualified instructors teaching or band wagon jumping?

David Jones

I never started a training group until I had a blue belt and had competed in competition. And a training group is all it was ie it covered the rent of the hall. I travelled at my own expense to the US on 5 occasions to train. I never coached MMA until I had fought myself. I didnt open Next Generation till I got the go ahead from Chris who believed I was of a good enough standard to do it.

Why dont I set up a club tomorrow teaching Tae Kwon Do?
1. Because I know nothing about Tae Kwon Do (aside from being bored watching it in the Olympics)
2. I have enough respect for martial arts as a whole to not try and palm myself off as something Im not. I did Wing Chun for 3 years could possibly with a little revision teach Siu-Nim-Tau and Chum-Kiu to complete beginners passing myself off as a Wing Chun guy. Why would I want to? Why would I want to deceive people into believing they are getting something they are not.
There are plenty of established clubs for people who want to go and learn BJJ for ground, Judo and wrestling for throws and boxing, kickboxing or Muay Thai for stand up. There are even a few clubs where you can do all of the above. The only reason people with no experience now want to set up an MMA club is to rip off the public.

cowzerp

No its not.

Bambi wrote: »

Didn't many of the now established MMA coaches in this country start running classes back when they had very little experience, qualifications or competition records? I think you'd need to define what the exact issue is first, is it unqualified instructors teaching or band wagon jumping?

The thing is these lads set up MMA clubs because they loved it and wanted to grow the sport-it had to start somewhere! also it should be noted that the early coaches all fought when it was new and gained experience on what works and does not work-if a coach is not willing to fight at some stage then why should they run a club.

now its established and coaches from other arts are switching codes because they see the money, even though in realisation there is not much!!
most of us do it as a hobby and if we gained money thats a bonus.

Tim_Murphy

Bambi wrote: »

Didn't many of the now established MMA coaches in this country start running classes back when they had very little experience, qualifications or competition records? I think you'd need to define what the exact issue is first, is it unqualified instructors teaching or band wagon jumping?

I know a fair few people who did this and it's fair to say that they all, myself included, started training groups, not commercial clubs. I was interested in MMA and there wasn't any alternative for me other than training it as best I could in my own club, along with training grappling with other people who were interested from other groups. That is a very different thing to say if I hadn't gotten interested in MMA 5 years ago and continued training TKD. Then suddenly in 2009 I realise that MMA is the cool thing at the moment and started out of the blue adding MMA classes in the schedule of my TKD club.

Dyr

The point is this: You need to define what is the problem here, what exactly it is that it is unethical. It appears to be motivation, that people are jumping on the MMA bandwagon solely to cash in on it's popularity.

Motivation is a really hard thing to prove conclusively and using rank and records as a key indication of someones motivation does not make sense, it could also be a double edged sword.

cowzerp

No its not.

Bambi wrote: »

The point is this: You need to define what is the problem here, what exactly it is that it is unethical. It appears to be motivation, that people are jumping on the MMA bandwagon solely to cash in on it's popularity.

Motivation is a really hard thing to prove conclusively and using rank and records as a key indication of someones motivation does not make sense, it could also be a double edged sword.

The point is these people have clubs to join now where as they would not have a few years ago, there not interested in doing this as they want to cash in on the new buzz thing, when something else comes along they will jump on that bandwagon aswell.

its unethical to train MMA imo if you've never took part in MMA yourself, same as i would not teach TKD because i would be bluffing.

Tim_Murphy

Bambi wrote: »

The point is this: You need to define what is the problem here, what exactly it is that it is unethical. It appears to be motivation, that people are jumping on the MMA bandwagon solely to cash in on it's popularity.

Motivation is a really hard thing to prove conclusively and using rank and records as a key indication of someones motivation does not make sense, it could also be a double edged sword.

Sorry to be blunt, but it is not blatantly obvious?

Dyr

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Sorry to be blunt, but it is not blatantly obvious?

Whats "it"? Motivation? To someone who knows what to look for in a MMA club it probably is but the fact that "unethical" clubs seem to be flourishing would suggest it's not. What indicators would you suggest that would allow a layman to make an informed decision on whether a club is McMMA or not?

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

its unethical to train MMA imo if you've never took part in MMA yourself, same as i would not teach TKD because i would be bluffing.

Would you hold that belief of Greg Jackson?

If a guy is just beginning to coach MMA now and has never fought, then I'd be wary. But I'd be a bit less apprehensive about someone who started coaching at a time when there weren't as many opportunities to fight. The coach may have had a good starting point from some other art and been able to branch out from there, during a time when the sport itself was still growing and figuring out what exactly works

FUNKY LOVER

cowzerp wrote: »

Maybe Tim, im just brainstorming, something needs to be done either way.



Its a boards issue but who's to say they cant be named and shamed else where, even Bebo!!

this is ridiculous and borders on childlike behaviour.do you even know they are like this?havr you seen the gym or taking a class,well i have and i can assure you they do all mma and are brilliant,i better not get banned for this seems other people got away with making comments about them!!

cowzerp

No its not.

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

this is ridiculous and borders on childlike behaviour.do you even know they are like this?havr you seen the gym or taking a class,well i have and i can assure you they do all mma and are brilliant,i better not get banned for this seems other people got away with making comments about them!!

I was not refering to any particular club, were talking about any club that is run by unqualified cowboys. , and if your only experience of training mma is with them how do you know how good it is?

Chris89

No its not.

First post says it best, Wouldnt learn how to rock climb off someone who's never climbed a hill, or whatever it is you climb.

I think a lot of beginners would be slightly apprehensive about stepping into the cage, doesnt really help if their coach is too.

Martin Walker

Sorry im not getting this....
Is the Problem
1: A qualified coach in a certain field ie.TKD Black Belt adding an MMA "class" to his timetable when he has never trained or fought MMA.
2: An unqualified "coach" teaching MMA when the only experience he has is training with other recognised MMA Gyms for a while.
3: Some one doing it for the cash.
Sorry again but im picking up conflicting problems.

Nothingcompares

What's important I think is the ethos of the club. Maybe it's a MMA club that teaches 'UFC' techniques, every spends an hour warming up, doing a bit of exercise, and then someone shows a triangle and then you go home. They're not trying to produce some cage fighters and therefore no one is at risk.

What's more scary is a nutter who think's his traditional martial arts methods can be slightly modified for 'ground fighting' and starts running a MMA club. He wings it and it's only until people stop turning up because they sense something's not right or until people start getting hurt that it comes to a stop. If they get past this the next step is you have this cowboy putting people down for fights against other gyms and the fella gets mauled.

I have no problem someone teaching MMA the same way boxing is taught in some fitness centres as boxercise. I wouldn't do it myself but it's harmless.

Chris89

No its not.

Martin Walker wrote: »

Sorry im not getting this....
Is the Problem
1: A qualified coach in a certain field ie.TKD Black Belt adding an MMA "class" to his timetable when he has never trained or fought MMA.
2: An unqualified "coach" teaching MMA when the only experience he has is training with other recognised MMA Gyms for a while.
3: Some one doing it for the cash.
Sorry again but im picking up conflicting problems.

I'd say all 3, mainly 1 and 2.