unauthorised direct debit

Hi Guys,

I am having an issue with the carphone warehouse.

Basically, I have noticed that since 2006 €10 has been debited from my account every month (don’t ask me how I didn’t spot this before). I don’t ever remember buying a phone from the carphone warehouse in 2006.
So I contacted them to ask them why there was a direct debit set up on my account and what it was for.

They came back with the following:

[font=&quot]Unfortunately on the mobile number you provided we are unable to find your insurance policy to cancel. However if you can obtain from your bank your direct debit mandate number, also know as your third party originator reference number. With this number we will be able to find your insurance and cancel it.[/font]

So, when I saw this I went to my bank and got the reference number they were talking about and replied with:

[font=&quot]I have just rang my bank and they have told me that this Direct Debit has been going since 2006??? I do not know how I missed this but something needs to be done about it and I want to know exactly what’s is going on here![/font]

[font=&quot]My bank gave me what’s called an "Originators Reference Number": 001xxxxxxxxxx [/font]

Here is what they came back with:

[font=&quot]Thanks for your Email. [/font]
[font=&quot]I've spoken to our lifeline insurance department. They've looked at the originator's reference. It belongs to a lifeline policy. However, this policy is not in your name. Therefore, we're unable to discuss or cancel the account from our end. [/font]
[font=&quot]If you're not aware of anybody else using your bank account details for a lifeline policy, you may cancel the direct debit with your bank. They'll also refund you any amounts that have been taken without your authorisation, under the direct debit guarantee. You need to complete an Indemnity form with your bank. Your bank will then investigate the payments with us.[/font]

[font=&quot]I replied with the following:[/font]

I must have signed for it or there must be some record of this, an organization like the carphone warehouse must keep records, it is not good enough for you to tell me you can not talk to me about it, its not you who is getting your money debited from your account. I would appreciate it if you could investigate this correctly and find the correct records.

So, does anyone know what I should do here, I know I can go to my bank and get them to sort it but surely if there was a direct debit setup on my account then I must have signed a form and carphone warehouse must have a copy of this? Should they provide me with this form? I feel like Im being fobbed off to my bank and that they don’t want to deal with me.

So if anyone could advice me I would be very grateful, thanks.

deisebabe

It belongs to a lifeline policy. However, this policy is not in your name. Therefore, we're unable to discuss or cancel the account from our end.

Did you ask them whos name this is in? They wont bother doing anything their end as they are gaining money and don't care about how

p28559

what i would do is;
write to your bank cancelling the direct debit. ask them for a copy of all the paper work authorising the transactions.
write to the fraud investigation section of the bank seperately detailing the history
write to carphone warehouse explaining that they have been taking money from your account without your permission and if you dont get an explaination and refund you will have to report the matter to the cops...taking without asking isnt allowed...



i closed a bank account previously when i couldnt get an explaination. soon as i mentioned closing the account the bank refunded the money. closed the account anyway!

Sam Vimes

If the policy isn't in your name then they can't talk to you because of the data protection act. Probably someone gave fake direct debit details when signing up and the bank didn't check the signature properly. Or it could be as simple as someone gave the wrong details. CPW don't verify that the details are correct when signing people up to insurance, you don't need a bank statement or anything like that and there's no other way to check. It's up to the bank to make sure they're not taking money from the wrong person

Do what they say, call your bank and get them to stop it on their end and refund you. It's illegal for carphone warehouse to discuss the account with you

jor el

Do what Carphone Warehouse told you to do:
If you're not aware of anybody else using your bank account details for a lifeline policy, you may cancel the direct debit with your bank. They'll also refund you any amounts that have been taken without your authorisation, under the direct debit guarantee. You need to complete an Indemnity form with your bank. Your bank will then investigate the payments with us.

You'll get your money back, and stop further payments.

As for the person who's name is on the account, it would be illegal for CPW to give you this information, so don't even bother asking.

Ah, beaten by Vimes. Next time Vimes, next time...

Sam Vimes

jor el wrote: »

Ah, beaten by Vimes. Next time Vimes, next time...

<evil laugh>

Cheers for all the advice guys.

So, if I got to the bank they will be able to give me a copy of all the paper work authorising the transactions ??

Atleast that way I can verify the signature?

OldmanMondeo

[quote=[Deleted User];60961777]Cheers for all the advice guys.

So, if I got to the bank they will be able to give me a copy of all the paper work authorising the transactions ??

Atleast that way I can verify the signature?[/QUOTE]

Go to your bank, they will investigate the DD. Once they prove that you didn't sign the DD form, they will credit all the DD's and will pass to their own fraud office.

OldmanMondeo

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Go to your bank, they will investigate the DD. Once they prove that you didn't sign the DD form, they will credit all the DD's and will pass to their own fraud office.

Will do, thanks, and thanks all.

dub45

The key thing here is to cancel the direct debit and to get your money back. I can understand your frustration with the situation - I hate the dd system as much as anyone - and your situation shows yet again the looseness of it as a system. It is a disaster really and you will get loads of people saying its great etc etc - it can be grand until it slams right into you as in your case.

Dare I say it but when you give people access to your account you have to watch it like a hawk.

You will probably be hamstrung in your attempt to investigate it by the data protection act too.

Bear in mind too that under the dd express scheme you can sign up over the phone and you dont have to actually sign a mandate. Although the company that you sign up with should issue you with a letter giving full details of the proposed dd within a number of days after the sign up. In this instance I don't think the bank hold the paperwork.

However you could report the matter to IPSO they are the people responsible for the dd scheme. They are an incredibly arrogant shower who are always maintaining that the system is perfect. You could ask them to investigate and give you an explanation as to how a dd could have been set up on your account without your permission and point out that this is an appalling flaw in the system. www.ipso.ie.



I would be very surprised if they dont ask you how you never spotted this before now.

dub45

dub45 wrote: »

Bear in mind too that under the dd express scheme you can sign up over the phone and you dont have to actually sign a mandate. Although the company that you sign up with should issue you with a letter giving full details of the proposed dd within a number of days after the sign up. In this instance I don't think the bank hold the paperwork.

Just got off with the bank and that is exactly what they said. It seemingly was an electronic transaction so no paper work!!

The lady in the bank is going to head office to see what can be done.

jor el

[quote=[Deleted User];60962186]Just got off with the bank and that is exactly what they said. It seemingly was an electronic transaction so no paper work!!

The lady in the bank is going to head office to see what can be done.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes, not always, certain banks have been known to shrug their responsibility, and claim there's nothing they can do. If this happens, point them at the rules for the direct debit scheme, here and here, and tell them that if they don't follow these rules, you'll report them to the IPSO and the Garda fraud squad.

You should check out these links anyway so you know what you're talking about when the bank get back to you.

Thanks Guys,

Ill update the post again when I have more information. First thing is to cancel the dd and press carphone for the direct debit mandate information.

dub45

jor el wrote: »

Sometimes, not always, certain banks have been known to shrug their responsibility, and claim there's nothing they can do. If this happens, point them at the rules for the direct debit scheme, here and here, and tell them that if they don't follow these rules, you'll report them to the IPSO and the Garda fraud squad.

You should check out these links anyway so you know what you're talking about when the bank get back to you.

A recent example of this which stemmed from pure ignorance. I called into my bank which shall remain nameless as they responded immediately when I clarified things for them. I wanted to make a complaint under the dd system - I was talking to their customer services rep - a person who incidentally had been appointed because as she told me herself 'the bank forgot about their customers'!

The subject of cancelling a dd came up and she said you have to do it with the company!!!! And that this was what she told people every day and this was what she had been told herself by management!!! She had never heard of ipso and there is no written guide available to the dd system for either banks customers or anyone else!!

She is correct of course about the written guide - I have raised this with IPSO who claim it is not their repsonsibility:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

So I printed off the rules for the lady about how to cancel a dd and she brought them to the attention of management!!! Incredible!!!

Sam Vimes

[quote=[Deleted User];60962443]Thanks Guys,

Ill update the post again when I have more information. First thing is to cancel the dd and press carphone for the direct debit mandate information.[/QUOTE]

You can press them all you want. It's illegal for them to give it to you and they will not give it to you under any circumstances

But my bank just told me that I will have to get the Direct Debit mandate from them.

Surely I should get some confirmation from them about it. If it was setup electronically then whats to stop everyone doing this and using my account details?

Sam Vimes

[quote=[Deleted User];60963658]But my bank just told me that I will have to get the Direct Debit mandate from them.
[/QUOTE]
I thought the whole point of the mandate was that cpw were supposed to send it to the bank

[quote=[Deleted User];60963658]
Surely I should get some confirmation from them about it. If it was setup electronically then whats to stop everyone doing this and using my account details?[/QUOTE]

Nothing really. You rely on the vigilance of the bank staff to recognise dodgy signatures/non matching names and your own vigilance of your bank account. You can always get the money back if it's fraud though, it' just hassle

Sam Vimes

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the mandate was that cpw were supposed to send it to the bank

My bank said that as carphone warehouse is such a big company that they do all this themselves???

She told me that the bank have no paper work on this and that I would need to get a Direct Debit Mandate from the cfw

Sam Vimes

[quote=[Deleted User];60964100]My bank said that as carphone warehouse is such a big company that they do all this themselves???

She told me that the bank have no paper work on this and that I would need to get a Direct Debit Mandate from the cfw[/QUOTE]

I'm at a loss at to how the bank expects you to get cpw to give you a direct debit mandate that doesn't belong to an account in your name. I don't think they fully understand the situation or they're fobbing you off. Point this out to them:

Paying Banks Must:

Only pay Direct Debits in accordance with its customer’s instruction.

Ensure that unauthorised and/or cancelled Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation.

Promptly refund its customer for indemnity claims and present the Indemnity to the Originator.

Assist its customer in the resolving disputes with Originators.

Inform the Sponsoring Bank if an Originator is not adhering to the Rules of the Scheme

http://www.ipso.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=172

dub45

[quote=[Deleted User];60962443]Thanks Guys,

Ill update the post again when I have more information. First thing is to cancel the dd and press carphone for the direct debit mandate information.[/QUOTE]

It might be time to change tactics a little. But before that is there any possibility that you could have got written confirmation of dd being set up on your account back in 2006 and missed it somehow or forgotten it? it's absolutely crucial to establish that.

Next step no more looking for information now look for formal written explanations from Carphone and your bank. Tell carphone they have 10 days before you report them to the GardI for theft and your bank has proven that they cannot be trusted took after hour account etc etc. Tell them you will report them to the regulator - that will terrify them:)

jor el

[quote=[Deleted User];60964100]My bank said that as carphone warehouse is such a big company that they do all this themselves???

She told me that the bank have no paper work on this and that I would need to get a Direct Debit Mandate from the cfw[/QUOTE]

CPW won't give you anything, as the policy is in someone else's name. There probably isn't even a mandate anyway as they can do it without any forms, this is the joy of direct debit plus, no signature or authorisation needed from the customer.

You need to educate the bank as to their responsibilities, as per the links posted by myself and Sam Vimes, particularly the part Sam highlighted about paying banks must "Promptly refund its customer for indemnity claims and present the Indemnity to the Originator". This is what's happening with you, the bank have to investigate it, not you. There is no direct debit mandate for a falsely applied direct debit.

Sam Vimes

jor el wrote: »

CPW won't give you anything, as the policy is in someone else's name. There probably isn't even a mandate anyway as they can do it without any forms, this is the joy of direct debit plus, no signature or authorisation needed from the customer.

There would be. cpw insurance forms are printed out, signed and filed. But they won't let the OP see them

dub45

Some more information for you:

Two variants of the Direct Debit Scheme now operate in Ireland:
• Direct Debit, based upon pre-authorised instructions, signed by the Payer, and forwarded by the Originator to the Paying Bank.
• Direct Debit Plus, which enables Originators to:
o Sign up Originators without the customer having to sign a paper instruction, or
o Sign up Originators with a paper instruction and retain the instruction.

Direct Debit Plus ''Caters for a broader range of sign-up methods, including face-to-face, telephone or internet.

The Payer agrees verbally, in writing or via the internet to payment by Direct Debit, and the Originator records details of that agreement in his system.

The Originator holds customer details including the Bank, branch and account details.
The Originator must verify the customer details, including identity details, bank account details, authority details (joint accounts, non-personal accounts, etc). In addition, the Originator must verify the sortcode and account number using modulus checking for all Payer accounts held by Members.
Where no signed DDI is in place, then within 3 days of the agreement at 3 above, the Originator issues a written Direct Debit confirmation to the Payer.

The Originator issues advance notices to Payers.
o The first such advance notice may be included with or incorporated into the Direct Debit confirmation, or may be sent at a later date.
o The notice can take the form of an invoice or a one-off notice detailing a series of payments over a period of time.
o Advance Notice may take the form of a letter, email or SMS
o At least 7 days must elapse before presentation of the 1st debit.
o Advance notice of 7 days is the default requirements for all debits.
o The sponsoring bank may at its discretion, authorise a notice period less than the default, provided that payers are notified of, and have agreed to the shorter notice period.''

Some excerpts from page 16 of the direct debit scheme.

This is great stuff guys, I have loads here to go back to both my Bank and the carphone warehouse and actually look like I know what I'm talking about.
Its a hard situation to be in as the bank have said there is not documentation on their side and CPW will not talk to me as the account is not in my name.

I suppose the only thing I can do is stop the payments and write a long winded letter using all the information I have here.

I'm sure that I have never received an invoice or letter from CPW. I file all bills etc so I would know if i did receive one.
I really cant believe that it is so easy to use account details that are not your's without permission, obviously CPW haven't done the checks they should have done but yet I'm still the one that has to pay for it.

It really upsets me that they can basically tell me to f**k off and not give a toss about it. You would think that if I'm paying for someone's insurance I have the right to know who they are.
Say for example it was my girlfriend (I've confirmed that it wasn't) that set this up. I then go to the bank and do the indemnity process, they find out that it was my girlfriend, how would i look?

I really think that the "payer" should be given a copy of the form or atleast get one on request, but this is the messed system that seems to be there where its just not that sensible.

As I said before, thanks a million guys for all your comments, ill get back onto both parties and see what can be done. Ill update this post and let you know how I get on.

dub45

[quote=[Deleted User];60966032]This is great stuff guys, I have loads here to go back to both my Bank and the carphone warehouse and actually look like I know what I'm talking about.
Its a hard situation to be in as the bank have said there is not documentation on their side and CPW will not talk to me as the account is not in my name.[/QUOTE]

If the bank says to you that there is no documentation on their side point out to them as a party to the ''direct debit plus system'' they have agreed to this way of operating and it is their problem not yours!!! Ask they why they have not protected your account in agreeing to such a slipshod system. Ask they why they are knowlingly allowing people to access accounts under such a flimsy system.

Put the onus back on them all the time - accept no nonsense. Point out to them that they have allowed unauthorised access to your account over a prolonged period and that you will be pursuing this with the appropriate authorities. I dont know who this is at the mome.t but we can find out. Ask them for a copy of their complaints procedure.

[quote=[Deleted User];60966032]and CPW will not talk to me as the account is not in my name.[/QUOTE]

It is not about CPW talking to you at this stage. Its about you saying to them
'You have been debiting my account for the last three years without my permission. I want a full explanation within the next 7 days or I am reporting this matter to the Gardai'' Simple as that.


[quote=[Deleted User];60966032]I suppose the only thing I can do is stop the payments and write a long winded letter using all the information I have here.[/QUOTE]

Write to your bank immediately cancelling the direct debit and ask them for written confirmation that they have carried out your instructions.

No long winded letters at all. Two short letters demanding explanations thats all.

And you really should report this to IPSO and get them involved. IPSO constantly claim they get very few complaints and of course one of the reasons is that people dont know that they exist.

By the way with regard to accounts - You can actually verify without any problem on the ipso site whether an account number and sort code is legitimate. I find that incredible maybe I am just prejudiced!!!

foggy_lad

Direct Debit Plus ''Caters for a broader range of sign-up methods, including face-to-face, telephone or internet.

The Payer agrees verbally, in writing or via the internet to payment by Direct Debit, and the Originator records details of that agreement in his system.

The Originator holds customer details including the Bank, branch and account details.
The Originator must verify the customer details, including identity details, bank account details, authority details (joint accounts, non-personal accounts, etc). In addition, the Originator must verify the sortcode and account number using modulus checking for all Payer accounts held by Members.
Where no signed DDI is in place, then within 3 days of the agreement at 3 above, the Originator issues a written Direct Debit confirmation to the Payer.

what this means to the op is that when you dispute the payments taken from your account your bank (who dont want to be bothered) should contact CPW and confirm the details which they must hold on the direct debit they have set up against your account!

then the bank(who really couldn't care less) will see that your details do not match the name of the other party that is using your account number. they will then have to refund you every single payment made on this direct debit and may even owe you interest?

this whole thing could be due to a mistake on the part of the CPW in 2006 when setting up the direct debit or it could be fraud, either way you will most likely never know the identity of the other party to this.

dub45

foggy_lad wrote: »

what this means to the op is that when you dispute the payments taken from your account your bank (who dont want to be bothered) should contact CPW and confirm the details which they must hold on the direct debit they have set up against your account!

then the bank(who really couldn't care less) will see that your details do not match the name of the other party that is using your account number. they will then have to refund you every single payment made on this direct debit and may even owe you interest?

this whole thing could be due to a mistake on the part of the CPW in 2006 when setting up the direct debit or it could be fraud, either way you will most likely never know the identity of the other party to this.

I read somewhere else recently about bank staff being mystified by this so called ''direct debit plus'' and the fact that it had caused considerable confusion in banks. When you think about it - it is quite incredible (unless I am misreading the system) that debits can suddenly start hitting an account with the account holder's bank branch having no authorising documentation for them.

I think it is important not to get diverted in this case by the name of the person 'benefiting' from this. The main thing is to get a full explanation as to how this happened from both parties.

BTW - How did CPW accept dd details for a policy and a bank account with two different names I wonder?

colly_eire

in my opinion its the banks fault for accepting the DD with a differnent name as on the account and ya cant fault CPW if they recieved somethin with the persons name on it with the account details so i say blame the bank!

dub45

colly_eire wrote: »

in my opinion its the banks fault for accepting the DD with a differnent name as on the account and ya cant fault CPW if they recieved somethin with the persons name on it with the account details so i say blame the bank!

Its a lousy system but that does not absolve CPW. They are responsible for signing up the customer to the dd not the bank. And the bank are not in possession of a paper mandate.

CPW should verify the customers name and address in so far as they can but they are also required to write out to the customer with the dd details within days of the dd being set up.

The banks just receive dds they cannot check everyone. The banks cannot even guarantee that a cancelled direct debit will be picked up by the system.
Thus the common practise of companies reinstating direct debits.

And again as I keep pointing out there are no sanctions against companies who 'misbehave' so they have nothing to fear at al no matter what they do.

seamus

dub45 wrote: »

The banks just receive dds they cannot check everyone.

I would have thought though that the minimum info required would be the account name, payer's address, account number and sort code. The banks can then do rudimentary checks to ensure that these are at the very least correct (like credit card payments) and any which fail are referred for manual processing where the bank rings the account holder to confirm the DD mandate.

It doesn't prevent your neighbour from stealing your banks statements and using your bank account, but you could require from the originator's side that the bank account payer's address and the customer's billing address must always match.

dub45

seamus wrote: »

I would have thought though that the minimum info required would be the account name, payer's address, account number and sort code. The banks can then do rudimentary checks to ensure that these are at the very least correct (like credit card payments) and any which fail are referred for manual processing where the bank rings the account holder to confirm the DD mandate.

It doesn't prevent your neighbour from stealing your banks statements and using your bank account, but you could require from the originator's side that the bank account payer's address and the customer's billing address must always match.

Sorry was less than clear there - what I meant was that the banks receive dds for payment on a daily basis obviously they cannot check these.

Under the dd plus scheme the companies hold the information - its an appalling system geared entirely against the payer - well thats what I believe anyway:)

From the direct debit scheme 'rules' (page 16 if you want to check!)

Ordinary Direct Debit.

The Originator sends the completed DDI to the Payer’s Bank.

Direct Debit Plus
The Originator holds customer details including the Bank, branch and account details.
The Originator must verify the customer details, including identity details, bank account details, authority details (joint accounts, non-personal accounts, etc). In addition, the Originator must verify the sortcode and account number using modulus checking for all Payer accounts held by Members.
Where no signed DDI is in place, then within 3 days of the agreement at 3 above, the Originator issues a written Direct Debit confirmation to the Payer.

By the way there is no easy guide to the dd system in Bank Branches either for staff or customers. Bank staff are widely ignorant of how the dd system is supposed to work. There is no proper complaints system. I raised all these points recently with the Manager of the dd scheme at ipso and he was openly contemptuous of the idea that there should be a written guide for people.

On the other hand the UL equivalent of IPSO have least have some sort of help for bill payers: http://www.bacs.co.uk/Bacs/Consumers/DirectDebit/HelpCentre/Pages/default.aspx

Whereas IPSO have nothing on their website other than a bland downloadable guide and the rules of the scheme.


Its really appalling that they can continuously get away with the sort of system the have in place - it can create havoc for people and they have no comeback at all. Many examples here for instance:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=648997

When I say that customers have no come back - I am aware that there is provision for a refund but there is no provision for making up for the mess that unauthorised direct debits can create. Lots of examples in that thread.

In particular any company that reinstates a cancelled direct debit should be charged with attempted theft. there is simply no excuse for it.