Review of operation and rules of forum - your opinions wanted!

Bounty Hunter

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think that attitude is among the biggest problems with this forum.

Its for general football fans to discuss all things football, whatever they wish....if you want a forum for Liverpool,Villa,Utd fans only, i don't think this is the place for you.

couldent agree more, I really like getting the opinions of non Villa fans on the Villa thread for example as their opinions differ from the usual person who posts in there but is in no way less valid. Although of course he is right about not slagging each other as well that is just trolling.

Although eventually the big teams prob will need sub forums if boards and the soccer forum continues to grow in poster numbers. but for now the Superthreads are doing a good job and the forum is mostly good imo

villains77

Mr Alan wrote: »

I think that attitude is among the biggest problems with this forum.

Its for general football fans to discuss all things football, whatever they wish....if you want a forum for Liverpool,Villa,Utd fans only, i don't think this is the place for you.

if you cared to read the op i am talking bout other fans coming on to the villa fans and trying to stir up ****e. i have no prob with other fans coming on and giving an honest opinion. there is a huge difference in looking for trouble that's all iam trying to say do u understand now

Mr Alan

villains77 wrote: »

if you cared to read the op i am talking bout other fans coming on to the villa fans and trying to stir up ****e. i have no prob with other fans coming on and giving an honest opinion. there is a huge difference in looking for trouble that's all iam trying to say do u understand now

i did read the op....the problem is if their honest opinion is not positive, you view it as stirring up ****. thats the problem.

if you disagree with their opinion, make your case as to why they are wrong...if it something like form,goals scored,transfers etc etc, a lot of these things can be answered definitively so if they continue to say the same ill-informed opinion after being corrected (if indeed they were wrong), thats when it crosses a line imo. but there is nothing wrong with posting in any thread anyone wants to.

Dublin_Gunner

Mr Alan wrote: »

i did read the op....the problem is if their honest opinion is not positive, you view it as stirring up ****. thats the problem.

if you disagree with their opinion, make your case as to why they are wrong...if it something like form,goals scored,transfers etc etc, a lot of these things can be answered definitively so if they continue to say the same ill-informed opinion after being corrected (if indeed they were wrong), thats when it crosses a line imo. but there is nothing wrong with posting in any thread anyone wants to.

Definitely, less we go down the road of chosing which team you support when you put in your access request, and are not allowed in other team super threads. But thats just silly IMO it is a shame that a small minority which to cause trouble, stir it up on threads, but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

GuanYin

We can't moderate people's opinions, we can moderate the way they choose to express them.

You're gonna have to get used to the idea that people don't like your league, your team, your manager, your players or any and all of the above and are allowed to say so if they do it in an intelligent, respectful and on topic way.

We're not here to teach people that, so we're probably going to have to go with an approach that involves sanctioning people who don't post in the "correct" manner.

Similarly, we're not here to teach you guys to recognize the difference between an intelligently presented opinion and a troll and it really does annoy me when I read some reported posts by users who really just don't like what the poster had to say.

Maybe we should change how reported posts are allowed to be used?

LuckyLloyd

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Definitely, less we go down the road of chosing which team you support when you put in your access request, and are not allowed in other team super threads. But thats just silly IMO it is a shame that a small minority which to cause trouble, stir it up on threads, but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

NO DICE.

Go to Red Cafe or Rawk or wherever the **** for that rubbish.

PHB

To be honest, any sort of punishment for reporting posts which aren't actually against the charter will just result in less people reporting posts.

Beyond that, if you're trying to encourage people to not post "troll" in the thread, you aren't exactly helping by giving out about reported posts.

GuanYin

PHB wrote: »

To be honest, any sort of punishment for reporting posts which aren't actually against the charter will just result in less people reporting posts.

Beyond that, if you're trying to encourage people to not post "troll" in the thread, you aren't exactly helping by giving out about reported posts.

Well I did ask the question of the forum

I can live with the reported posts, it's the complaints about not acting on them that annoy me.

Handsome Bob

Guan Yin,

I don't suppose you could give us an example of what you mean when you say that some of the reported posts are just due to the reporter not liking what the accused has to say? It doesn't have to be an actual original example, you could just make one up.:)

GuanYin

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Guan Yin,

I don't suppose you could give us an example of what you mean when you say that some of the reported posts are just due to the reporter not liking what the accused has to say? It doesn't have to be an actual original example, you could just make one up.:)

You wouldn't believe some of them.

The worst ones are some instances are games which go one way or another and a poster says "team X were the better team by far" and we get reported posts from supporters of the other team complaining about "trolling".

Handsome Bob

GuanYin wrote: »

You wouldn't believe some of them.

The worst ones are some instances are games which go one way or another and a poster says "team X were the better team by far" and we get reported posts from supporters of the other team complaining about "trolling".

Hmmmm, that does sound very petty. However, would you say these accusations are always totally unfounded, or would you say that they may have had a point but they just failed to articulate it properly?

GuanYin

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Hmmmm, that does sound very petty. However, would you say these accusations are always totally unfounded, or would you say that they may have had a point but they just failed to articulate it properly?

I don't quite get you. If the reported post has merit we act. There are just some instances where posters seem to think that offering an opposing point of view is worthy of reporting the post. It isn't and it is symptomatic of a larger problem in the forum (posters not being able to accept another point of view).

Headshot

i think what LZ5by5 is trying to get at is

lets say utd dominate a game for 90mins but villa score a goal in extra time and a poster comes in and says

villa were the better team by far

---

sorry if im mistaken LZ5by5

Handsome Bob

GuanYin wrote: »

I don't quite get you. If the reported post has merit we act. There are just some instances where posters seem to think that offering an opposing point of view is worthy of reporting the post. It isn't and it is symptomatic of a larger problem in the forum (posters not being able to accept another point of view).

I just mean that in certain instances when posters say "X were quite clearly the better team" what they actually meant was that "X is being entirely unreasonable in his criticism (gives reasons why) and is trying to bait hostile reactions through his style of posting."

And I entirely agree with you, it's up to the reporter to make a convincing argument as to why they feel the reported post broke the charter rules.

GuanYin

Hrmmm well we have a hive mind and we generally discuss match threads if there is an influx of reported posts.

Let me think, a good example might be the Liverpool V Arsenal game that was 4-4.

I think a few people reported posts that suggested Arsenal deserved to win, or that Liverpool played badly, which is ludicrous in game where anything could and pretty much did happen and both teams managed to throw away leads....

Not to get into a debate on that game, but reporting an opinion on that is just plain dumb.

Handsome Bob

GuanYin wrote: »

Hrmmm well we have a hive mind and we generally discuss match threads if there is an influx of reported posts.

Let me think, a good example might be the Liverpool V Arsenal game that was 4-4.

I think a few people reported posts that suggested Arsenal deserved to win, or that Liverpool played badly, which is ludicrous in game where anything could and pretty much did happen and both teams managed to throw away leads....

Not to get into a debate on that game, but reporting an opinion on that is just plain dumb.

I hear you and I agree with you within the context of that game.

I don't want to to post in depth again, but earlier in this thread I gave the example of the Spurs/Liverpool match thread (the latters first loss of the season) as what I think needs to be adressed.

Basically, Liverpool lost a game they literally should have won. Their performance wasn't one worthy of a loss but that's football, that happens all the time and I accept that.

But some of the stuff posters were coming out with such as "lulz Liverpool were absolutely awful and won't finish in the Top 4 never mind win the league." That kind of stuff is entirely unreasonable, especially within the context of it being Liverpool's first loss of the season. That style of posting is designed to incite and nothing more.

Now, a Liverpool fan not exactly well versed in the english language could have reported a post that deserved to be reported but failed to convince the mods because all they they said was "Liverpool were the better team."

That's what I meant by saying these guys might have been right in reporting a post, but that they just failed to articulate themselves.

Xavi6

But sure so what if someone says Liverpool didn't deserve to win? Why let it bother you? Anyone who watched the game will know it's bollox so if anything the person who posted it has make themselves look like a tool. And by you or whoever biting then they've 'won' for want of a better term. I don't see any reason why idiotic comments like that are replied to, especially in a manner that sees bans or infractions result from it. On the flip side, if they were that good they would've won so technically they weren't the better team at all and the 'troll' in fact has a point....

PHB

In relation to one of the issues arising, in terms of things already being discussed, perhaps we could encourage superthreads in a similar system that they use to SA.

Over there there is somebody who started the superthread. Then when it gets too big, what happens is that they create a new superthread [on a more than season basis].

However the first post in the new thread has loadsa links to various things that happened throughout the thread.

So for example, it'd be like

Welcome to the new Manchester United Superthread.

Past Debates:

Berbatov Transfer Saga [link]
How much money has Fergie spent compared to x [link]
Is Mike Phelan bad at his job [link]
Is Carrick a good player [link]

etc.

then people could start to look back through those posts, or link to those posts, when a debate re-emerges that has already been had out.

This would have to be somewhat policied in that people might start saying, stfu and look at the old posts, which isn't the aim. It's just that some debates happen over and over again.

5starpool

No one reads the first post in a big thread. I think there should be less proscription about what can be talked about in certain places, saying it has to be discussed in other threads. In some cases this is ok where a conversation is going way off topic and is split out into a new thread, but a few posts here and there (or even a couple of pages before it setles down) is ok.

@Xavi - saying 'so what' is all well and good, but if someone deliberately posts something to annoy in a thread (and saying xyz is a valid opinion) when it is clearly outlandish, it is not going to be ignored, you know it is not. Most of the anti team stuff said is ok in that it is not totally over the top, but it is the small amount of it that is ONLY posted to inflame. This is the type of stuff that causes most of the ructions, and letting other things relax in order to clamp down on occurances of this (from all sides) is the main thing that needs to be done imo.

All this other wishy, washy stuff being discussed is all well and good, but it will only be a new coat of paint over the widening cracks. Give me 50 opposition fan-bois with opposing views over one poster who deliberately posts to annoy, anyday.

Boggles

Can one of the mods clarify how the cumulative card system works and the time frame for expiration on cards.

Is is 12 months, or a season to season basis.

I have read and reread the rules, but it's like reading through the T&C's of my eircom contract. :pac:

therecklessone

Boggles wrote: »

Can one of the mods clarify how the cumulative card system works and the time frame for expiration on cards.

Is is 12 months, or a season to season basis.

I have read and reread the rules, but it's like reading through the T&C's of my eircom contract. :pac:

All infractions earned since the last charter update (July 14th 2008) count towards your 6 card limit.

As I said to you in my PM, we will be zeroing out that record at some time in the future (the not too distant) at which point everyone will be back to zero infractions (however those on 6 months bans will still have to serve out their time)

There is no set time period, we may consider a clearly stated time period if that is what people feel is necessary, and when we complete this charter review we will clarify the accumulated infraction system.

Boggles

therecklessone wrote: »

All infractions earned since the last charter update (July 14th 2008) count towards your 6 card limit.

Forgive my eyeballs Tro it could be in there but I can't find anything about a 6 card limit.

Also It says if you get a yellow card infraction and then another you receive a red.

From my reading of that, 3 reds you are banned for 6 months, and 2 yellows = 1 red.

Is that right?

therecklessone

Boggles wrote: »

Forgive my eyeballs Tro it could be in there but I can't find anything about a 6 card limit.

Also It says if you get a yellow card infraction and then another you receive a red.

From my reading of that, 3 reds you are banned for 6 months, and 2 yellows = 1 red.

Is that right?

Yes, I'll concede the charter is poorly worded and I'll amend it when I've had a chance to do a couple of other more pressing tasks this afternoon.

therecklessone

therecklessone wrote: »

Yes, I'll concede the charter is poorly worded and I'll amend it when I've had a chance to do a couple of other more pressing tasks this afternoon.

Wording now amended:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56561140&postcount=4

Hope that helps.

_blank_

Boggles wrote: »

Can one of the mods clarify how the cumulative card system works and the time frame for expiration on cards.



Is is 12 months, or a season to season basis.

I have read and reread the rules, but it's like reading through the T&C's of my eircom contract. :pac:

And can I ask.

Why is a Irish based discussion board so England centric in it's rules?

This needs addressing, because this is Boards.ie, and I'd like to know the actual reason why "a season" means the English season, on an Irish website.

Why is the LoI treated as a second class citizen, it is the way it's posted about in this thread by others, and it is by the mods.

This is an Irish Website with an English corner, Soccer.

It's not really shocking for the "Feedback assholes" to have a go at this forum, in that context. Is it.

Xavi6

Des wrote: »

And can I ask.

Why is a Irish based discussion board so England centric in it's rules?

This needs addressing, because this is Boards.ie, and I'd like to know the actual reason why "a season" means the English season, on an Irish website.

Why is the LoI treated as a second class citizen, it is the way it's posted about in this thread by others, and it is by the mods.

This is an Irish Website with an English corner, Soccer.

It's not really shocking for the "Feedback assholes" to have a go at this forum, in that context. Is it.

Sorry Des but you're clutching at straws here now with regard to conspiracy theories on our treatment of the LOI.

It's not 'England centric', it's traditional. The Irish league only went to summer football a few years ago, prior to that it followed what you have dubbed the English system. Does that mean that the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese, Austrian, Swiss, Italian and whatever else leagues are only towing the line with the English? Of course it doesn't.

The year is based on the general calendar for European football - the season starts in August, finishes in May, and breaks til the end of July. It's got nothing to do with it being English.

And really, what difference does it make if the season starts in March or August? It's still a 12 month period for the cards to run through.

Whether you like it or not the majority of posters here are more interested in the Premiership than the LOI. It would be incredibly difficult to police a system that starts/ends midway through the season of the most supported league.

_blank_

ok so, once we're clear.

The soccer forum follows a non-irish calander, while the rest of boards does.

just because it's "unfeasible"

jesus_thats_gre

Woah

Xavi6

Des wrote: »

ok so, once we're clear.

The soccer forum follows a non-irish calander, while the rest of boards does.

just because it's "unfeasible"

Ok let me ask you - would it make you happy if the rules calendar went from March to February? If yes is the answer then why? What difference does it really make to you, apart from getting one up over the Premiership lot?

_blank_

Xavi6 wrote: »

one up over the Premiership lot?

.ie

Xavi6

Ok then I'll add it to the list of discussion topics if it's really a big problem.

_blank_

this is a supposedly Irish website, with a nice little england-centric corner.

I'm just saying that some of the anti-forum bullshít that is aimed here is because of that.

I just wish we could be more in tune with our .ie

jesus_thats_gre

Mods should start a poll on the subject and let the majority decide. Sounds fair enough, no?

therecklessone

Talk about mountains and molehills...

Des wrote: »

ok so, once we're clear.

The soccer forum follows a non-irish calander, while the rest of boards does.

I'm pretty certain boards, like the rest of the western world, follows a calander that runs from January through to December. That's not a football issue. No amount of changing the calander will change the perception non-soccer users have of this forum or their tendency to have a dig on Feedback.

Xavie is right, we follow the traditional European calander, which Irish football followed until a few years ago (and still does in continental competition), and it's a calander that suits the major international competitions. It also suits the fact that our last major charter amendment was in July of last year, this year's will happen in August so the season will probably be considered August-July. It's not just that it is feasible, but it makes more sense than amending it to run March-February.

But I'll tell you what, lets go the whole hog and go .ie-centric. Let's replace the yellow/red card infraction system with the GAA's tick/yellow/red, and we'll only issue a red card for a right old schmozzle. Let's have the season run from May to September and sure if you get knocked out early you can always go into the qualifiers. We can insist that access requests are submitted as Gaelige just like a substitution, and we can all bring tea and sandwiches to a match thread. The Jacks are back!

Dub13

The simple fact is this is the soccer forum off season and the traffic takes a bit of a dive in June/July,so this is the natural turning point in our year.

Also I believe there is a debate under way in LOI circles to move back to the 'English calender'.

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

Ok then I'll add it to the list of discussion topics if it's really a big problem.

No discussion required imo.

Gavin "shels"

Dub13 wrote: »

Also I believe there is a debate under way in LOI circles to move back to the 'English calender'.

Not a hope of that happening in the near future imo.;)

Mr Alan

Des, please tell me someone was using your account last night?

Daemos

In my opinion, the fact of the matter is that the most popular league in Ireland is the English Premier League because, like it or not, the Irish league is not at the same standard as the English one.

So surely you understand, therefore, that the most moderation is needed during this time because, as Dub13 said earlier, it is during the English and European standard season that there is more activity.

And even when the Irish season is on and the English is off, the English is more frequented. On the first page, there are 9 threads directly focused on English teams/issues. There are only 3 for the LOI.

(And for the record, I'm not against the LOI. I don't support it, but I don't oppose it either. I'm simply stating the facts that the English off-season is, apparently, three-times as supported as the Irish on-season)

SectionF

It doesn't really matter that the English Premiership is more popular in Ireland. It still takes a monumental act of collective self-deception to refer to that league as if it is ours, or here, and to make this position the default reference for all discussion.

If you look at most professional media, they have sly little methods for playing down the fact that they are talking about English football. 'Across the water' or 'cross-channel' probably are the favourite. You will rarely hear them front up and say 'English football'. Or they will just bluff through with 'In soccer, Liverpool blah, blah...' But they have the imperative/excuse of professionalism and the search for a bigger audience. They are not writing or speaking personally.

Here, since presumably we are all being ourselves, that little trick doesn't quite come off. No matter how much we all want to be in England, where the 'real' action is, and no matter how democratically we achieve a landslide victory in support of that aspiration, the fact remains that we can't. Because, just like Bohs, Shels, Shamrock, and even Cork, we're in Ireland.

Sometimes, just wanting something doesn't make it true. Sorry.

Daemos

But the fact that there is more interest around the English season than the Irish season means that it is logically easier to follow the same system in this forum in terms of moderation and introducing new rules or editing old ones.

I accept that I follow a league not from my own country, and I'm not afraid to say I have no interest in the LOI. I'll also admit easily that there is good interest in the LOI in this forum. But as moderators, TRO, Xavi6 and all the other mods have to focus their attentions on when the forum is at its busiest which, like it or not, is when the English leagues are active, and not the Irish.

Mr.Nice Guy

Here's a thought, would it not be a good idea to create a separate sub-forum for LOI fans? It can be modded by LOI fans for LOI fans. They can run the place however they see fit. If someone goes in there and calls it a sh*t league, says there are useless players etc then they can be given bans by the mods there. Similar to the pro wrestling forum where when someone goes in there and says it's fake they are instantly given bans. It cuts out the nonsense.

Likewise, if LOI fans come into the soccer forum here and start stirring things up by questioning people's patriotism for supporting the EPL, La Liga etc. or start making smart comments about "go support your local side" then they can be given bans as well.

It would sort out a lot of problems I feel.

therecklessone

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Here's a thought, would it not be a good idea to create a separate sub-forum for LOI fans? It can be modded by LOI fans for LOI fans. They can run the place however they see fit. If someone goes in there and calls it a sh*t league, says there are useless players etc then they can be given bans by the mods there. Similar to the pro wrestling forum where when someone goes in there and says it's fake they are instantly given bans. It cuts out the nonsense.

Likewise, if LOI fans come into the soccer forum here and start stirring things up by questioning people's patriotism for supporting the EPL, La Liga etc. or start making smart comments about "go support your local side" then they can be given bans as well.

I'm going to preempt the inevitable sh1tstorm that this suggesion will ignite by saying we've had suggestions of sub-forums for individual leagues before and they have been rejected. I particularly dislike this suggestion, and with wounded feelings on one side of the divide I am opposed to the solution being to create a ghetto for either side to exist in.

Taken to it's logical conclusion we'd have to create a Liverpool subforum, and a United subforum, because of the friction between both sets of fans. And that is a non-runner too.

It would sort out a lot of problems I feel.

So would everybody showing a little more civility to other posters on the forum, and everybody being a little bit less precious about their own team/league.

Gavin "shels"

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Here's a thought, would it not be a good idea to create a separate sub-forum for LOI fans? It can be modded by LOI fans for LOI fans. They can run the place however they see fit. If someone goes in there and calls it a sh*t league, says there are useless players etc then they can be given bans by the mods there. Similar to the pro wrestling forum where when someone goes in there and says it's fake they are instantly given bans. It cuts out the nonsense.

Likewise, if LOI fans come into the soccer forum here and start stirring things up by questioning people's patriotism for supporting the EPL, La Liga etc. or start making smart comments about "go support your local side" then they can be given bans as well.

It would sort out a lot of problems I feel.

Should be a separate sub-forum for foreign leagues not our national league tbh, this being an Irish forum, the LoI really shouldn't be alienated.:rolleyes:

Mr.Nice Guy

Gavin shels wrote: »

Should be a separate sub-forum for foreign leagues not our national league tbh, this being an Irish forum, the LoI really shouldn't be alienated.:rolleyes:

I'm not advocating alienating people Gavin it's just that some LOI fans appear to find some of the rules of the board objectionable and want the fact they follow the domestic league of Ireland acknowledged more. I don't neceesarily think that's unreasonable. With this being the case perhaps it's best to have a forum which caters solely to LOI fans like yourself.

Plus you would have your own forum which other "foreign leagues" would not have.

therecklessone wrote:

I'm going to preempt the inevitable sh1tstorm that this suggesion will ignite by saying we've had suggestions of sub-forums for individual leagues before and they have been rejected. I particularly dislike this suggestion, and with wounded feelings on one side of the divide I am opposed to the solution being to create a ghetto for either side to exist in.

Taken to it's logical conclusion we'd have to create a Liverpool subforum, and a United subforum, because of the friction between both sets of fans. And that is a non-runner too.

I take your point about not wanting to go down the route of United and Liverpool subforums and I agree with you that should be avoided, but the difficulty is when LOI fans seem at odds with the emphasis on EPL discussion. If there's too much of a conflict of interest then maybe separation is a worthwhile resolution.

I agree that a bit more civility would go a long way and I hope that we can have less of the LOI vs EPL stuff this season. I just think if it all kicks off again next season and continues to cause you guys headaches then maybe it's something to think about.

Mr Alan

are LOI fans in this thread for real!?

Gavin "shels"

Mr Alan wrote: »

are LOI fans in this thread for real!?

On what matters? And are you just referring to Des?:D

Mr Alan

Des and yourself are coming across a little bit of a mixture between....



&

Gavin "shels"

Mr Alan wrote: »

Des and yourself are coming across a little bit of a mixture between....

I was merely saying why should our national league be put in a separate sub-forum to the rest, when it is an Irish forum and the LoI is the Irish football league.;)

Headshot

Mr Alan wrote: »

Des and yourself are coming across a little bit of a mixture between....

good look for Des

he's working that tin-foil hat :pac: