BT charging for time after cancellation

quad_red

Is this rich or what?

'As requested, the cancellation of your account will start on the 01.08.2009. However please note that your next bill will be issued on the 14.07.2009 and will bill you in advance up until the 13.09.2009 and there will be no refund of the advance charges as stated in BT's Terms and Conditions. Can you confirm you understand this?'

Wtf?? :mad:

dub45

quad_red wrote: »

Is this rich or what?

'As requested, the cancellation of your account will start on the 01.08.2009. However please note that your next bill will be issued on the 14.07.2009 and will bill you in advance up until the 13.09.2009 and there will be no refund of the advance charges as stated in BT's Terms and Conditions. Can you confirm you understand this?'

Wtf?? :mad:

Are you ending your contract before the minimum period is up? Otherwise it appears to mean that BT want you to agree to them charging you for services that they know they will not be providing! Before I detonate (already today I have been reading the Dundrum Shopping Centre 'Gift Vouchers' thread and am still trying to get my blood pressure down!) perhaps you could let us know if you have completed your contractual term?

jor el

Cancel the direct debit now, pay for two weeks line rental, broadband and any calls you make using Billpay. Keep that receipt, and wait for the debt collection letters to start arriving.

Take it from me, this is exactly how it goes.

speedy2007

yeah i had that too, cancelled in march long after i had completed the minimum contract. I hadnt even received the last bill before i cancelled, but because they had it in the post it didnt matter and i was charged for another month that i wouldnt be using. I looked thru the t&c and it is in there, maybe i shouldve read them more clearly, but can companies really put anything they want in their t&c and get away with it

anyway that unfortunately wasnt the end of it for me, cos theyve just billed my credit card for july. Its doubly annoying cos im not working right now and i had just cleared off all my credit cards debt cos i dont want to use them when im not earning. They say theyve issued me a refund which i should get in 10 days back to my credit card, btu ive been reading quite a few posts about their incompetence so im a bit worried this is just the start of my troubles

quad_red

Hi guys,

I am sitting here stewing. We have been BT customers/victims for two and a half years. So there is no contract period etc.

I need serious advice here - what do I do?

Do I just cancel the direct debit and pay the period? What are the ramifications legally of doing this?

Thanks
Quad

quad_red

Where in the terms and conditions does it say this?

I mean, JESUS CHRIST.

Charging up until the end of the billing period is mean but I sort of understand it.

But charging for an entire extra month even though I am not in contract and have given plenty of notice??
:mad:

dub45

quad_red wrote: »

Where in the terms and conditions does it say this?

I mean, JESUS CHRIST.

Charging up until the end of the billing period is mean but I sort of understand it.

But charging for an entire extra month even though I am not in contract and have given plenty of notice??
:mad:

To be honest I cannot for the life of me understand how you can 'sort of understand it' - other than where someone cancels their contract before the minimum period is up why should anyone pay for service that you are not getting or do not want?

In reality what BT are saying is that even if your service falls into a billing period by one day we will charge you for the full billing period - no one can justify that sort of stuff.


Given that BT bill people two months ahead you could end up paying a considerable amount for non service.


So the minimum period of bb with BT is six months - if you wanted to cancel at the end of the minimum period and get your cancellation notification wrong and went a day into their next billing period you could end up in BT's mad world paying for almost 8 months!

Its appalling and reaches new depths in ripping off people. Even I (who is as cynical as they come) am astonished as the sheer effrontery of this. Charging for service a customer is not being provided with - who would believe it!!!!!!

8.4 Notwithstanding termination for any reason whatsoever a Customer shall remain liable for all Charges due and owing (whether or not yet billed to the Customer) in respect of Service up to and until the next billing date applicable to that Service.

Is it this one that they are using to justify the charges? I would certainly cancel the direct debit. I would also ring consumer affairs (http://www.nca.ie/eng/) and comreg and see what their views are on this. Just because something is put into terms and conditions it doesnt make it legal. Companies rely on the passivity of people to get away with this sort of RIP OFF!


I am even angrier now!!! I notice on rereading your post that you actually cancelled well in advance of the next due billing date. So when you think about it they could easily amend the bill up to the end of your term with them. RIP OFF RIP OFF RIP OFF!!!!!!

By the way I would email them back and tell them that you most certainly do not understand why you should be charged in this way and ask them not to debit your account pending clarification. This will put you onside with regard to the direct debit system as disputed billing amounts should not be debited.

Originators must put in place reliable systems and which will ensure:
o the issuance of correct advance notification as appropriate of amounts to be debited
o that Direct Debits as issued conform to Payer instructions and the Rules of the Scheme
o that disputed amounts are not debited
o that procedures for terminating the Direct Debit are put in place
o that the Originator will settle indemnity claims under or pursuant to the Scheme within 10 days
o that all other responsibilities of the Originator under or pursuant to the Scheme are adhered to

The above is take from the rules of the dd scheme (a scheme which is laughably ineffective)

dub45

speedy2007 wrote: »

yeah i had that too, cancelled in march long after i had completed the minimum contract. I hadnt even received the last bill before i cancelled, but because they had it in the post it didnt matter and i was charged for another month that i wouldnt be using. I looked thru the t&c and it is in there, maybe i shouldve read them more clearly, but can companies really put anything they want in their t&c and get away with it

anyway that unfortunately wasnt the end of it for me, cos theyve just billed my credit card for july. Its doubly annoying cos im not working right now and i had just cleared off all my credit cards debt cos i dont want to use them when im not earning. They say theyve issued me a refund which i should get in 10 days back to my credit card, btu ive been reading quite a few posts about their incompetence so im a bit worried this is just the start of my troubles

There is no excuse for a 10 day delay in getting money back to you. Ring your cc company immediately and tell them that you want the debit reversed immediately. When you cancelled in March you automatically withdrew authority from BT to use your cc for any purpose whatsoever.
You should also ring the data protection people and ask can you make a complaint about BT abusing data which they hold

The data protection people have issued a directive about using information held for a specific billing purpose for another billing. Not quite sure if yours falls strictly into this.

Specific, explicit and lawful purposes
Data controllers who obtain personal data from a data subject may do so for one or more specific, lawful and clearly stated purposes. Where personal data stored on a card is collected for the purposes of a transaction, it can be assumed that the purpose for its collection ends following completion of the payment for a product or service.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/08/01/08__Guidance_Note_for_Data_Controllers_on_Purpose_Limi/581.htm

I would also write to BT by registered letter seeking a guarantee that all information which they hold on you will be removed from their system point out that in the light of their recent use of your information you cannot trust them.

Firetrap

As an aside, I strongly advice you to meticulously keep records of every single phone call/email/letter you have with them. Take names. They're notoriously bad at cancelling customer accounts.

speedy2007

dub45 wrote: »

There is no excuse for a 10 day delay in getting money back to you. Ring your cc company immediately and tell them that you want the debit reversed immediately. When you cancelled in March you automatically withdrew authority from BT to use your cc for any purpose whatsoever.
You should also ring the data protection people and ask can you make a complaint about BT abusing data which they hold

The data protection people have issued a directive about using information held for a specific billing purpose for another billing. Not quite sure if yours falls strictly into this.



http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/08/01/08__Guidance_Note_for_Data_Controllers_on_Purpose_Limi/581.htm

I would also write to BT by registered letter seeking a guarantee that all information which they hold on you will be removed from their system point out that in the light of their recent use of your information you cannot trust them.

thanks for that info dub45, i wasnt aware of that - i always thought they could hold onto it for a few months after. It was a chip and pin cc so according to that there is no reason for them to hold onto the info afterwards.

Actually, the person on the phone said they required either my bank a/c details or cc details to issue my refund as he no longer had access to my details anymore. Which doesnt make sense, cos they must still have them on file to bill me
Anyway after arguing that i didnt want supply them with any more details cos i didnt want them billing me, i gave them my cc. I just hope that hasnt set me up for more misery. Theyre so frustrating to deal with on the phone, maybe a letter/email is the way to go. thanks.

dub45

speedy2007 wrote: »

thanks for that info dub45, i wasnt aware of that - i always thought they could hold onto it for a few months after. It was a chip and pin cc so according to that there is no reason for them to hold onto the info afterwards.

Actually, the person on the phone said they required either my bank a/c details or cc details to issue my refund as he no longer had access to my details anymore. Which doesnt make sense, cos they must still have them on file to bill me
Anyway after arguing that i didnt want supply them with any more details cos i didnt want them billing me, i gave them my cc. I just hope that hasnt set me up for more misery. Theyre so frustrating to deal with on the phone, maybe a letter/email is the way to go. thanks.

They are actually allowed hold on to your billing data but only for query purposes. Get on to your credit card company and ask for an immediate charge back - BT have accessed your credit card account without any authority whatsoever.

(if you think about if a little while - you cancelled in March so someone must have abused access to your information to set you up again??? Otherwise how would they be accessing your cc account now? If they hadnt removed you from the billing process you would have been billed before July???)

Anyone having any dealings with BT really should do so only by registered post. They have proven time and time again (well documented on here by the way) that they are an appalling company.

But do complain to your cc company about them. Put their incompetence on record in as many places as possible.

quad_red

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Looks like I've got fun times ahead

As of now, the timeline goes like this:
Monday 29 June - Sent email cancelling service.
Monday 29 June - Response from Sheena at Customer care team asking do I want to transfer account to new address. I say thank you but no.
Wednesday 1 July - Response from Ciaran at Customer care team asking for my mobile phone number at my 'earliest convenience' so a member of the customer care team can call me. Fine, I give them my mobile number. I never receive any call.
Thursday 2 July - Reponse from Benji at Customer care team informing me: As requested, the cancellation of your account will start on the 01.08.2009. However please note that your next bill will be issued on the 14.07.2009 and will bill you in advance up until the 13.09.2009 and there will be no refund of the advance charges as stated in BT's Terms and Conditions. Can you confirm you understand this?

I emailed Benji back this morning indicating that this was not acceptable and that I wanted him to provide me with the exact clause in the terms and conditions.

So I wait...

parsi

I moved from BT to Vodafone in April and BT miraculously lost all records of that and continued to bill me.

However I logged a formal complaint and their complaints guy was assiduous in keeping me up to date (I never had to chanse for an update) and a refund did issue.

So I would sugegst logging a formal complaint and take it from there.

quad_red

Called COMREG and they said they could do nothing. They said that if it was in the BT terms and conditions then they are fully entitled to do it. They said if I was querying the fairness of the terms and conditions, I should contact The National Consumer Agency.

So I called the National Consumer Agency. They said there was nothing they could do. All they could suggest would be that if I pay BT the money I could then try and claim it back through the small claims court....

Thanks. For. That.

So I've gone back into the BT terms and conditions. This is all I can see is applicable to us (given that we are not in violation of a minimum contract period and are giving sufficient notice):

8.4 Notwithstanding termination for any reason whatsoever a Customer shall remain liable for all Charges due and owing (whether or not yet billed to the Customer) in respect of Service up to and until the next billing date applicable to that Service.

Yeah, up until the next bill date in mid August. Not an entire extra billing date in September.

jor el

quad_red wrote: »

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Looks like I've got fun times ahead

As of now, the timeline goes like this:
Monday 29 June - Sent email cancelling service.
Monday 29 June - Response from Sheena at Customer care team asking do I want to transfer account to new address. I say thank you but no.
Wednesday 1 July - Response from Ciaran at Customer care team asking for my mobile phone number at my 'earliest convenience' so a member of the customer care team can call me. Fine, I give them my mobile number. I never receive any call.
Thursday 2 July - Reponse from Benji at Customer care team informing me: As requested, the cancellation of your account will start on the 01.08.2009. However please note that your next bill will be issued on the 14.07.2009 and will bill you in advance up until the 13.09.2009 and there will be no refund of the advance charges as stated in BT's Terms and Conditions. Can you confirm you understand this?

I emailed Benji back this morning indicating that this was not acceptable and that I wanted him to provide me with the exact clause in the terms and conditions.

So I wait...

You sent the cancellation request on the 29th of June. As per BT's T&Cs, the cancellation period is 14 days, but they always lie to you an make out that it's 30 days. It isn't, and don't let them away with it. 14 days from June 29th is the 13th of July, 1 day before your next billing date.

Do not let them away with this. Reverse any charges they apply to your card, and tell them you're reporting them for fraud. Accessing your billing information for the purposes of fraudulent charges is also against the Data Protection Act, so report them on that too.

I've been down this road before, and an email to the CEO, Chris Clark (chris.clark@bt.com) finally got it sorted after I had been over charged, and they were trying to issue legal proceedings against me for a fictitious debt.

The relevant term in the T&Cs is 8.3

BT or the Customer may terminate a Service or the Agreement upon serving 14 days' prior written notice to the other party provided however that if the Customer terminates a Service or the Agreement before the expiry of any applicable Minimum Period then the Customer shall be liable to pay to BT in accordance with clause 3.13 the relevant Termination Charge in respect of that Service, in the case of termination of a Service, or the relevant aggregate Termination Charges, in the case of termination of the Agreement. Termination of the Service or Agreement pursuant to this clause shall be effective on the expiry of the 14 day notice period.

http://eshots.btireland.ie/customer_updates/terms_conditions_legacy.doc

dub45

quad_red wrote: »

Called COMREG and they said they could do nothing. They said that if it was in the BT terms and conditions then they are fully entitled to do it. They said if I was querying the fairness of the terms and conditions, I should contact The National Consumer Agency.

So I called the National Consumer Agency. They said there was nothing they could do. All they could suggest would be that if I pay BT the money I could then try and claim it back through the small claims court....

Thanks. For. That.

So I've gone back into the BT terms and conditions. This is all I can see is applicable to us (given that we are not in violation of a minimum contract period and are giving sufficient notice):

8.4 Notwithstanding termination for any reason whatsoever a Customer shall remain liable for all Charges due and owing (whether or not yet billed to the Customer) in respect of Service up to and until the next billing date applicable to that Service.

Yeah, up until the next bill date in mid August. Not an entire extra billing date in September.

It is outrageous that there is no restraint on what Companies can put into their terms and conditions! However onwards with the battle:) Firstly can I suggest that you confirm with BT the exactly clause they are working on here?

I suspect that it is 8.4 but let them confirm it anyway. I think that you could justifiably interpret that clause to mean only outstanding charges such as calls made abroad (their t&cs integrate phone and billing) and not billed yet.
The clause says 'due and owing' in respect of 'service' but they are trying to charge you for a non existent service. Point this out to them and ask them exactly what 'service' they are charging you for? If there is no service there strictly speaking there can be no billing period? Also did you point out to them that you are disputing the charge and that you did not want the direct debit issued?

It is bad enough that the get huge amounts of money from customers as interest free loans by billing two months in advance but now they are using that two month billing period to attempt to rip off people as well.

By the way this attempted rip off also raises questions about their advertising? Surely they should have to highlight this type of charge as an integral part of their pricing?

Chaos Marine

I'd be wary of BT at all to be honest. My boss at work was on the phone to them a few weeks ago because they suddenly started charging him even though he cancelled his account with them about a year and a half ago. He's gotten all the details about them direct debiting his bank account and since he has no money in the bank account (He keeps it open for international transfers or something like that) the bank was charging him a penalty every day. When he contacted BT to find out what was going on, they told him that they had no record of this and his bank was in error. At that point I left the office as I'd finished what I was printing but I'd really keep an eye on what BT direct debits from your accounts to make sure they're not trying any funny business. There's also there's Comreg.

dub45

Chaos Marine wrote: »

I'd be wary of BT at all to be honest. My boss at work was on the phone to them a few weeks ago because they suddenly started charging him even though he cancelled his account with them about a year and a half ago. He's gotten all the details about them direct debiting his bank account and since he has no money in the bank account (He keeps it open for international transfers or something like that) the bank was charging him a penalty every day. When he contacted BT to find out what was going on, they told him that they had no record of this and his bank was in error. At that point I left the office as I'd finished what I was printing but I'd really keep an eye on what BT direct debits from your accounts to make sure they're not trying any funny business. There's also there's Comreg.

Indeed there is Comreg about as strong as tissue paper in a rain shower.

In any country where there was proper consumer law BT would be shut down until they had systems in place which would be passed as 'fit' by some proper financial body.

I have said before that I really dont know how their internal audit people can stand over their ''systems''. And to judge by the events listed here not much has changed. It is an appalling indictment of a supposedly reputable international company that we have to warn people to keep written copies of all communications with them.

Chaos Marine

This a reason why we need more aggressive and technologically minded people in the Dail or for at least the government to give the regulatory businesses some teeth. Like they did with CAB but I suppose, unlike CAB, regulatory bodies that don't feed extra income into the state would be too much hassle.

dub45

Chaos Marine wrote: »

This a reason why we need more aggressive and technologically minded people in the Dail or for at least the government to give the regulatory businesses some teeth. Like they did with CAB but I suppose, unlike CAB, regulatory bodies that don't feed extra income into the state would be too much hassle.

It doesn't take technologically minded people to come up with good consumer legislation it takes politicians with a bit of will and steel. They cannot even stop companies imposing extra charges on customers who do not want to pay by direct debit. And you can see the dangers here of a company like BT having payment details belong to people - they simply cannot be trusted to use them properly and to remove them from their systems when a contract is cancelled. As there is no sanction for this type of abuse the likes of BT having absolutely nothing to fear. Its a disgrace.

To get a service from many companies now - apart from paying for it - you have to give them your bank/credit card details, give them an ongoing interest free loan by paying two months in advance, and often put up a deposit. And now in BT's case further rip off stuff.

And they say the customer is King:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: