Who are the EU elites?

BlitzKrieg

It pops up from thread to thread. *The eu elites deny us this, the eu elite want this, the eu elite will eat your babies* etc etc etc.

WHo the f*ck are the EU elites?

FutureTaoiseach

To my eyes, the EU elites are the ruling-classes of society in the fields of politics, media, business, unions, celebs etc. Now, when persons like me on the no side criticise "elites", we are really referring more so to the majority of them rather than all of them. What we are attacking is their tendency to be out of touch with public-opinion on certain matters, notably European integration. This was evidence not only in the Lisbon referendum, but also in Nice I and the Citizenship Referendum. Virtually the entire Irish media opposed the latter referendum. What we are also criticising is the tendency among the elites towards groupthink, and some of us regard this as resulting in part from an "old boys networks", of the "you scratch my back - I'll scratch yours" variety. For my own part, when I use the term I also intend it as a criticism of what I see as "elitism" whereby Ireland usually ends up being the only country to vote directly on European integration via referenda, while the no votes of the French and Dutch are not respected. When I say the latter are not respected, I mean morally rather than legally. It is legally true to say that parliamentary-ratification of the Lisbon treaty in those 2 countries was legally in keeping with their respective national laws. But was it morally the correct thing to do? I believe it was a violation of the spirit of democracy to bring back 95% of the rejected provisions and then foist them on electorates that had said no. It embodies elitism in that it seeks to put the common people in their place while the ruling-classes make the big decisions on European integration - in defiance of their people in some cases.

BlitzKrieg

names?

FutureTaoiseach

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

names?

All the supporters of Lisbon I in the Oireachtas. To have 95% in those houses on the opposite side of the fence last year to 53% of the public is the ultimate expression of the elites being one side and the people on the other. And they way they continue pushing this document on the Irish people smacks in my opinion of high-handedness, which also falls into my definition of elitism.

The member state governments in general fall into this category too, aside from a few noble exceptions like Presidents Klaus and Kazcynski of the Czech republic and Poland who are as of yet refusing to sign the legislation. I also include the leadership of IBEC, the CPSU and other Irish unions that supported Lisbon last year and intend to do so again. The same applies to the leadership of the unions/business-orgs/media in France and Holland who were on the losing side in those countries in the EU Constitution referenda yet continued to support the political-classes in foisting 95% of its provisions on their own people.

Mario007

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

All the supporters of Lisbon I in the Oireachtas. To have 95% in those houses on the opposite side of the fence last year to 53% of the public is the ultimate expression of the elites being one side and the people on the other. And they way they continue pushing this document on the Irish people smacks in my opinion of high-handedness, which also falls into my definition of elitism.

oh right so everyone who doesnt like the way you think eu should work is a 'euro elite'...thanks for that

BlitzKrieg

so anyone not in the *no* campaign?

So there are not EU elites above our own politics? Its just another name to make them sound menancing and distant, when they are simply the same crap we deal with even if its not an eu issue?

FutureTaoiseach

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

so anyone not in the *no* campaign?

So there are not EU elites above our own politics? Its just another name to make them sound menancing and distant, when they are simply the same crap we deal with even if its not an eu issue?

I'm not saying all yes voters are part of the "elites". Just those who are in the ruling-classes in the political/media/union/business-orgs who constantly support every EU constitutional treaty that comes along and who insist on ratification continuing when people vote no.

K-9

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

All the supporters of Lisbon I in the Oireachtas. To have 95% in those houses on the opposite side of the fence last year to 53% of the public is the ultimate expression of the elites being one side and the people on the other. And they way they continue pushing this document on the Irish people smacks in my opinion of high-handedness, which also falls into my definition of elitism.

So it begs the obvious question, why are people voting for "elites" in General Elections?

FutureTaoiseach

K-9 wrote: »

So it begs the obvious question, why are people voting for "elites" in General Elections?

Because they vote on national issues. It's like that in Denmark and Sweden too, where people vote in pro-euro politicians while rejecting the euro in the 2000/2005 referenda in those countries. In fact, the UK seems to be the only country where the EU gets a look in as an important election issue, as shown in the UK whwere 63% voted for anti-Lisbon parties like UKIP and the Tories. There's also an added factor in Irish politics which is traditional family voting-patterns. For example my 67 year old mother has only ever voted FF in General and local elections.

BlitzKrieg

is EU elites another word for... THE MAN?

K-9

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Because they vote on national issues. It's like that in Denmark and Sweden too, where people vote in pro-euro politicians while rejecting the euro in the 2000/2005 referenda in those countries. In fact, the UK seems to be the only country where the EU gets a look in as an important election issue, as shown in the UK whwere 63% voted for anti-Lisbon parties like UKIP and the Tories. There's also an added factor in Irish politics which is traditional family voting-patterns. For example my 67 year old mother has only ever voted FF in General and local elections.

Why are you counting UKIP in a post about General Elections?

Would it be to bolster your figure to 63%?

Eurosceptics generally failed to gain ground in Europe in the EU Election you are obviously referring to by mentioning UKIP.

FutureTaoiseach

K-9 wrote: »

Why are you counting UKIP in a post about General Elections?

Would it be to bolster your figure to 63%?

Because it underlines the importance of the European issue in UK politics. I was replying to your question as to why Europeans vote for the elites who they sometimes disagree with on Europe. The UK is the exception that proves the role. I didn't notice the reference to General Elections earlier. But the above still holds, other than that the PR system favours Eurosceptic parties other than the Tories in Euro elections, but will return to the Tories in a GE, according to polls.

K-9

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Because it underlines the importance of the European issue in UK politics. I was replying to your question as to why Europeans vote for the elites who they sometimes disagree with on Europe. The UK is the exception that proves the role. I didn't notice the reference to General Elections earlier. But the above still holds, other than that the PR system favours Eurosceptic parties other than the Tories in Euro elections, but will return to the Tories in a GE, according to polls.

Voting Tory, does not mean anti Euro or Euro sceptic.

63% - 15% UKIP = 48% - God knows how many Tories who aren't that particularly Euro sceptic. We are well below 50% anyway.

We both know EU Elections are used as protest votes too.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

Eurosceptics generally failed to gain ground in Europe in the EU Election you are obviously referring to by mentioning UKIP.

I'll just post this again, because the EU Parliament elections seem to have been ignored by many Euro sceptics.

Euro sceptics predicted a breakthrough in this election. There was no breakthrough.

Scofflaw

K-9 wrote: »

I'll just post this again, because the EU Parliament elections seem to have been ignored by many Euro sceptics.

Euro sceptics predicted a breakthrough in this election. There was no breakthrough.

If one considers Libertas as well, the only breakthrough was through the floor.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bokspring71

K-9 wrote: »

Voting Tory, does not mean anti Euro or Euro sceptic.

63% - 15% UKIP = 48% - God knows how many Tories who aren't that particularly Euro sceptic. We are well below 50% anyway.

We both know EU Elections are used as protest votes too.

I've heard that the EU is about to make sceptcism against the EU an offence, punishable by a progressively draconian set of fines and imprisonment for those who continue to question and not believe what they are told by the Politburo ooppss I mean Commission.

To suggest there is no groundswell of opinion which is uneasy with the direction of the EU seems to fly in the face of some evidence; three out of five votes, held to gain the approval of 5 different electorates across the EU on the Lisbon constitution/treaty, were not passed.

While bearing in mind the pressure exerted on those electorates by the political "elites", this must be judged to be extraordinary.

No one else has been allowed to vote, so we can't claim to know what the rest of the EU's people think or want.

FutureTaoiseach

K-9 wrote: »

I'll just post this again, because the EU Parliament elections seem to have been ignored by many Euro sceptics.

Euro sceptics predicted a breakthrough in this election. There was no breakthrough.

They will have around 1/7th/8th of the seats and a couple of groups, notably the new European Conservatives and Reform group including the Tories, ODS and Law and Justice party (over 50 seats). The next European Parliament will be more Eurosceptic than the last. The strength of each group is as follows:

EPP (pro-Lisbon): 265
PASD (pro-Lisbon): 183
ALDE (pro-Lisbon): 83
Greens-EFA (same): 55
ECR (anti-Lisbon): 55
EUL-NGL (anti-Lisbon): 35 (Joe Higgins' group)
EFD (anti-Lisbon): 30
Far Right MEPs (anti-Lisbon, no group): 27

As such, the EP will have 149 anti-Lisbon MEPs. Not a bad performance, though obviously I have no time for the Far Right. The anti-Lisbon movement clearly represents a very sizeable strain of European public opinion, and as such, deserves a fair hearing by the Euro elites. Before the elections, the anti-Lisbon groups between them had only 65 MEPs. Granted, some of the change is due to the Tories (26 seats) leaving the EPP.But that still leaves a gain of 60 seats by the anti-Lisbon candidates/groups. Clearly, there is mounting concern in the EU about the democratic-deficit in Europe.

Scofflaw

bokspring71 wrote: »

I've heard that the EU is about to make sceptcism against the EU an offence, punishable by a progressively draconian set of fines and imprisonment for those who continue to question and not believe what they are told by the Politburo ooppss I mean Commission.

And do you actually believe such hysterical nonsense?

bokspring71 wrote: »

To suggest there is no groundswell of opinion which is uneasy with the direction of the EU seems to fly in the face of some evidence; three out of five votes, held to gain the approval of 5 different electorates across the EU on the Lisbon constitution/treaty, were not passed.

While bearing in mind the pressure exerted on those electorates by the political "elites", this must be judged to be extraordinary.

No one else has been allowed to vote, so we can't claim to know what the rest of the EU's people think or want.

That hasn't stopped virtually every No proponent here and elsewhere claiming exactly that.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

This is easy.

Elite = Democratically elected representative of the people - apparently, the more often the people elect you to be their representative, the less you are representative of them,

Not to be confused with:
Non-Elite = Democratically repeatedly rejected at the ballot box or Never stood for elected office - typically members of self-styled national or people's movement, their claims to really represent the people are typically inversely related to the number of votes they get in elections.

Scofflaw

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

They will have around 1/7th/8th of the seats and a couple of groups, notably the new European Conservatives and Reform group including the Tories, ODS and Law and Justice party (over 50 seats). The next European Parliament will be more Eurosceptic than the last. The strength of each group is as follows:

EPP (pro-Lisbon): 265
PASD (pro-Lisbon): 183
ALDE (pro-Lisbon): 83
Greens-EFA (same): 55
ECR (anti-Lisbon): 55
EUL-NGL (anti-Lisbon): 35 (Joe Higgins' group)
EFF (anti-Lisbon): 30
Far Right MEPs (anti-Lisbon, no group): 27

As such, the EP will have 149 anti-Lisbon MEPs. Not a bad performance, though obviously I have no time for the Far Right. The anti-Lisbon movement clearly represents a very sizeable strain of European public opinion, and as such, deserves a fair hearing by the Euro elites. Before the elections, the anti-Lisbon groups between them had only 65 MEPs. Granted, some of the change is due to the Tories (26 seats) leaving the EPP.But that still leaves a gain of 60 seats by the anti-Lisbon candidates/groups. Clearly, there is mounting concern in the EU about the democratic-deficit in Europe.

I hate to say it, but those figures are completely meaningless. As you've illustrated with your point about the Tories, the larger groups shown as pro-Lisbon previously contained eurosceptical national parties within their ranks. That those have now 'broken cover' doesn't change the composition of the Parliament.

You have also apparently claimed that all the independents in the current Parliament are anti-Lisbon, while apparently not counting them in the previous parliament - at least, I assume so, since there's no group called "EFF", and you haven't otherwise included independents. That boosts your 'gain' artificially by 30, on top of the artificial boost of eurosceptic MEPs changing party.

Finally, the sum, according to your own figures, should be 147, not 149. They may be meaningless, but that's no excuse for adding them up wrong.

Overall, I'm not sure why you wasted your time and other people's putting together something so egregiously wrong? As I said before, you should probably devote some time to research before posting here.

patiently,
Scofflaw

djpbarry

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

I'm not saying all yes voters are part of the "elites".

But apparently it is a requirement, in order to be placed into that category.

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

As such, the EP will have 149 anti-Lisbon MEPs. Not a bad performance, though obviously I have no time for the Far Right.

As Scofflaw has already pointed out, that figure is wildly inaccurate, but anyway…

Every MEP who is pro-Lisbon is dismissed as an “elitist” and now you’ve dismissed the anti-Lisbon MEP’s as right-wing loons. Where does that leave us?

Oafley Jones

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

It pops up from thread to thread. *The eu elites deny us this, the eu elite want this, the eu elite will eat your babies* etc etc etc.

WHo the f*ck are the EU elites?

Ah the 'Elites' - attack rhetoric of the American Neo-cons and beloved by such giants as Karl Rove and Sarah Palin; designed to inspire fear, contempt and resentment in insular, uneducated hicks. What they espoused was the average guy - e.g. Joe the plumber - because why would you want the best running your country. Strangely they never had a problem with sporting elites and never clamoured for averagely talented individuals filling their baseball teams.

I find it fascinating that there is an element trying to ply this failed tactic in Ireland - which in effect is nothing more than an Ad hominem argument - and anyone who has to resort to it should be ignored.

Iwasfrozen

*Wonders why a Democratically elected MEP who favours Lisbon is an Elite while a Democratically elected MEP who is anti-Lisbon is a Champion of the People.*

Scofflaw

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

*Wonders why a Democratically elected MEP who favours Lisbon is an Elite while a Democratically elected MEP who is anti-Lisbon is a Champion of the People.*

1. define "elite" as anyone out of touch with the wishes of "the people"

2. define yourself as "the people", or otherwise specially in touch with them

Ergo, anyone out of touch with your wishes is by definition a member of "the elite". If the next referendum result is a Yes, then the No side will become the new "elite", by virtue of being out of touch with majority thinking...

simply,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

1. define "elite" as anyone out of touch with the wishes of "the people"

2. define yourself as "the people", or otherwise specially in touch with them

Ergo, anyone out of touch with your wishes is by definition a member of "the elite". If the next referendum result is a Yes, then the No side will become the new "elite", by virtue of being out of touch with majority thinking...

Jaysus! I'm a member of the elite.

There was a time when I couldn't even pronounce the word.

Scofflaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Jaysus! I'm a member of the elite.

There was a time when I couldn't even pronounce the word.

Actually, you may not be a member of the elite, because you haven't been elected (I presume) - you'd be an 'elitist', or a 'yes-man to the elites'. Your slavish agreement with their evil designs is the result of either blind folly or ambition, or both.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nayorleck114

EU ELITES are the Euro skeptic imaginery ruling class of europe. Look its simple, as a block of countries with common policies, common standards, common currency its far easier to trade and to progress as a block. Europe has been as war for the last 2 milleniums. The union of nations has helped us progress. I remember Poland before they joined the EU, it has changed a lot since then, I can go there and expect the same consumer rights as in Ireland. I remember trying to get a refund for faulty stereo in 1996 in Krakow and it was near impossible, however I had no issues getting refund on faulty DVD player in 2006. Each nation has its own identity, but we can also have a common European Identity with common standards and laws. ... or we just go back to borders and disintergration.

Scofflaw

nayorleck114 wrote: »

EU ELITES are the Euro skeptic imaginery ruling class of europe. Look its simple, as a block of countries with common policies, common standards, common currency its far easier to trade and to progress as a block. Europe has been as war for the last 2 milleniums. The union of nations has helped us progress. I remember Poland before they joined the EU, it has changed a lot since then, I can go there and expect the same consumer rights as in Ireland. I remember trying to get a refund for faulty stereo in 1996 in Krakow and it was near impossible, however I had no issues getting refund on faulty DVD player in 2006. Each nation has its own identity, but we can also have a common European Identity with common standards and laws. ... or we just go back to borders and disintergration.

That's pretty much it. No campaigners have a slightly schizophrenic attitude. On the one hand, they have erected "democracy" (aka the No vote in the first referendum) to the status of a minor deity, but on the other hand all the competences that have been given to the EU have been given with the democratic agreement of the Irish people, and the EU in general enjoys greater levels of popular trust and goodwill than national governments.

The solution is the evil 'elites', who have 'tricked the people' into 'ceding sovereignty'.

cordially,
Scofflaw

View

nayorleck114 wrote: »

EU ELITES are the Euro skeptic imaginery ruling class of europe. Look its simple, as a block of countries with common policies, common standards, common currency its far easier to trade and to progress as a block. Europe has been as war for the last 2 milleniums. The union of nations has helped us progress. I remember Poland before they joined the EU, it has changed a lot since then, I can go there and expect the same consumer rights as in Ireland. I remember trying to get a refund for faulty stereo in 1996 in Krakow and it was near impossible, however I had no issues getting refund on faulty DVD player in 2006. Each nation has its own identity, but we can also have a common European Identity with common standards and laws. ... or we just go back to borders and disintergration.

Aw now, don't get carried away.

It's an article of faith of all Eurosceptics that we must on principle spend our time disagreeing with each other and not adopting common measures even if those measures would actually benefit us.

Thus, for instance, the agreement that came into force on July 1st to reduce the cost of mobile calls when roaming within the EU (see http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/052-54063-111-04-17-909-20090421IPR54062-21-04-2009-2009-false/default_en.htm ) is inherently wrong. It cannot on point of principle be good for you.

FutureTaoiseach

Scofflaw wrote: »

I hate to say it, but those figures are completely meaningless. As you've illustrated with your point about the Tories, the larger groups shown as pro-Lisbon previously contained eurosceptical national parties within their ranks. That those have now 'broken cover' doesn't change the composition of the Parliament.

You have also apparently claimed that all the independents in the current Parliament are anti-Lisbon, while apparently not counting them in the previous parliament - at least, I assume so, since there's no group called "EFF", and you haven't otherwise included independents. That boosts your 'gain' artificially by 30, on top of the artificial boost of eurosceptic MEPs changing party.

Finally, the sum, according to your own figures, should be 147, not 149. They may be meaningless, but that's no excuse for adding them up wrong.

Overall, I'm not sure why you wasted your time and other people's putting together something so egregiously wrong? As I said before, you should probably devote some time to research before posting here.

patiently,
Scofflaw

I meant EFD.

The UK Independence Party (UKIP) has teamed up with other Eurosceptics to form a new 30-strong group in the European Parliament.The group, called Europe of Freedom and Democracy, is headed by UKIP leader Nigel Farage.

Scofflaw

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

I meant EFD.

I'm glad you've corrected that, although it doesn't change any of the other gross errors in your post. Indeed it makes one more obvious - there are still apparently no independents in your Parliament.

cordially,
Scofflaw