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Govt deception over Lisbon "guarantees" exposed by British ministers

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    #122
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    bokspring71 wrote: »
    We seem to be in a circular argument about whether or not we believe political promises.
    I would say you seem to be in disagreement over what constitutes a "political promise". If something is in writing, it's much more than just a "promise".


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    #123
    storinius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭storinius


    free to prosper wrote: »
    There are no date or timetable for these "guarantees" to be added to any EU treaty - ever.

    The Lisbon 'Guarantees' CURRENTLY, without any accession treaty or protocol, have the same legal weight as the Good Friday Agreement. Are you suggesting that the Good Friday Agreement has no basis?


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    #124
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    bokspring71 wrote: »
    We seem to be in a circular argument about whether or not we believe political promises. If the argument comes down to whether or not we believe political promises then that fair enough.

    You seem to believe that the exact text of what appears in the documents is the same as the actual text which will be inserted into the future treaty, without any changes whatever. That seems unlikely as the document doesn't pretend to be the precise text to be inserted into a future treaty, but seems to be a series of promises agreed at a meeting, and pretty vague ones at that.

    I am long enough in the tooth to suspect that what is more likely to be inserted into a future treaty is the political or bureaucraitc interpretation of the document, which may, and possibly will, not be the same thing at all.

    The point I was attempting to make is that, by the time we get the actual treaty with the actual wording, it will be too late to cry "foul" as the reason for it, the lisbon treaty, will be history. And if the text is different, no one is going to suggest we re run the Lisbon treaty referendum again. Once the treaty has been passed, it has been passed, and its only if it's not passed we are told we must vote again.

    As pointed out, it's a neat political trick if I am right and, after all, they are politicians so political manouverings are their business.

    In any case, neither of us will know who is right until some time in the future and long after October 2nd 2009 and the Irish vote on the Lisbon treaty.

    No, we know right now. The only circularity is introduced by your persistent failure to accept the facts. As storinius points out, the guarantees are an "agreement", which is the same thing as the GFA - except, this time, there's 27 countries involved rather than 2. They're also the same thing as the Edinburgh Agreement.

    At some point, the refusal to accept that inconvenient international agreements are meaningless passes into conspiracy theory.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


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    #125
    bokspring71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭bokspring71


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    No, we know right now. The only circularity is introduced by your persistent failure to accept the facts. As storinius points out, the guarantees are an "agreement", which is the same thing as the GFA - except, this time, there's 27 countries involved rather than 2. They're also the same thing as the Edinburgh Agreement.

    At some point, the refusal to accept that inconvenient international agreements are meaningless passes into conspiracy theory.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    I agree that the guarantees are are an agreement. When we get the actual text of the guarantees, then we can decide what they mean.

    Until that time, all we seem to have is a document of intentions, and where we seem to differ is I don't believe a politicians promises about what is going to happen some years down the road.


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    #126
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    bokspring71 wrote: »
    I agree that the guarantees are are an agreement. When we get the actual text of the guarantees, then we can decide what they mean.

    Until that time, all we seem to have is a document of intentions, and where we seem to differ is I don't believe a politicians promises about what is going to happen some years down the road.

    We have the text of the guarantees. They're in the Council conclusions, and I've posted them as a sticky. They're not a 'document of intention' - the European Summit conclusions are the agreed text.

    Again, if you're going to claim facts are not facts, we are going to have an issue.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


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    #127
    PopeBuckfastXVI
    Registered Users Posts: 5,155 ✭✭✭PopeBuckfastXVI


    bokspring71 wrote: »
    I agree that the guarantees are are an agreement. When we get the actual text of the guarantees, then we can decide what they mean.

    Until that time, all we seem to have is a document of intentions, and where we seem to differ is I don't believe a politicians promises about what is going to happen some years down the road.

    Bumpy bump, got an answer yet?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61085867&postcount=103


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