Amnesty accuses Israel, Hamas of Gaza war crimes

McArmalite

" Amnesty International accused Israel and Palestinian militants of war crimes Thursday in the most comprehensive report on the recent Gaza war. Both sides rejected the findings.

Israel used excessive force in violation of international laws of war, killing hundreds of Palestinian civilians and destroying thousands of Gaza homes, the human rights group claimed. And Palestinian militants committed war crimes each time they fired a rocket at Israeli civilians, it said.

Israel and Hamas both denounced the report as unbalanced. Israel charged that Amnesty "succumbed to the manipulations of the Hamas terror organization." Hamas accused the rights group of downplaying the scale of the destruction Israel left behind. "

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090702/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_war_crimes

Now I'm not a big fan of religious fundamentalists like Hamas, but nevertheless I say they do have a point in claiming the report is unbalanced. If you read the report you will see that " More than 1,400 Palestinians, including more than 900 civilians, were killed during the three-week offensive " ( where the other 500 including very many Palestinain policemen etc regarded as ' combatants ' , just because the Isreali's say so ? )

On the Hamas side " Thirteen Israelis also were killed, including three civilians who died from rocket fire. ".

So 3 civilains killed by Hamas equals 900 civilians killed by poor little Isreal ?? And will those respondcible for these war crimes be pursued with the same vigour as those of former Yugoslavia and be brought before an international court for war crimes to face justice ??

Manic Moran

Is it about numbers, or is it about trying to follow the rules?

The rules say very little about numbers.

BTW, can you explain your sig? I'm trying to figure out how to equate terrorism with the Korean War.

NTM

Morlar

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is it about numbers, or is it about trying to follow the rules?

If the numbers were reversed and if 3 palestinians were dead v 1400 dead israelis would you hold the same opinion on the relevance of numbers to this discussion ?

Poccington

Didn't the Israeli PM come out a few months ago and say their Government would not allow any Israeli troops to be prosecuted for war crimes?

Needless to say, if someone has been found to have committed a war crime they should be put before the court.

NOGMaxpower

Reports of this nature serve no purpose. Israel is above international law as long as they have the support of the American government. Everyone knows what they are doing to the Palestinians is illegal and a gross war crime. But still nothing ever gets done nor will it.

Even without the US's backing Israel is a power onto their own.

We as in Europe and the rest of the world helped create the Jewish state and we're now surprised what they've done?

Its a complete and utter disgrace end of story no one will ever bring change to Palestine cos no one gives a monkeys. (Average people care) It the UN, governments etc that dont care.

Morlar

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

We as in Europe and the rest of the world helped create the Jewish state and we're now surprised what they've done?

Considering Ireland didn't even offer full recognition to israel until 1963 I do not think that we in Ireland 'helped create' the jewish state.

Manic Moran

Morlar wrote: »

If the numbers were reversed and if 3 palestinians were dead v 1400 dead israelis would you hold the same opinion on the relevance of numbers to this discussion ?

I certainly would like to think so. After all, the laws of war post the limits of my job, and nobody has ever put a numbers limit upon me, beyond how much ammo I'm allowed to carry. Why not judge everybody else by the same criteria I am held to?

I'm a military person, can I not look at any military conflict in a detached and impersonal manner and analyse it without much regard for which side is winning? The lessons learned certainly don't care.

NTM

McArmalite

jasoncarter wrote: »

At least someone accused Israel of the war . It is pretty courageous task as we all know that both Israel and Palestine are equally responsible for the war and all the bad thing happening out there.

So our friend here thinks that 3 civilains killed by Hamas equals 900 civilians killed by poor little Isreal ?? Brillant logic and morality :rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

So our friend here thinks that 3 civilains killed by Hamas equals 900 civilians killed by poor little Isreal ?? Brillant logic and morality :rolleyes:

no, the numbers do appear to be vastly out of sync, but you have to remember that one of the reasons there are less Israeli deaths is that many people in the areas targeted by Hamas spent a great deal of the time in shelters so where safe.

the fact that the Israelis where able to defend themselves better does not excuse Hamas targetting civilians in the first place.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, the numbers do appear to be vastly out of sync, but you have to remember that one of the reasons there are less Israeli deaths is that many people in the areas targeted by Hamas spent a great deal of the time in shelters so where safe.

the fact that the Israelis where able to defend themselves better does not excuse Hamas targetting civilians in the first place.

A load of bollox. Hamas don't have a superpower financially backing them with an open cheque book like poor little Isreal and hence haven't the hardware and firepower to inflict the same kind of damage.

Manic Moran

In fairness, the casualty tolls by insurgent forces in Iraq and Afghanistan rather dwarf those by conventional coalition forces, but I do acknowledge the difference in freedom of movement on the Palestinian/Israeli border.

NTM

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

A load of bollox. Hamas don't have a superpower financially backing them with an open cheque book like poor little Isreal and hence haven't the hardware and firepower to inflict the same kind of damage.

financial backing has **** all to do with it. Hamas fired rockets into civilian areas, that's wrong.

McArmalite

Fratton Fred wrote: »

financial backing has **** all to do with it. Hamas fired rockets into civilian areas, that's wrong.

:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

McArmalite wrote: »

:rolleyes:

no need to roll your eyes mate. Amnesty international aren't exactly going to ignore the actions of Hamas are they. :rolleyes:

FiSe

Amnesty International and Indymedia are the most reliable sources on the planet. And I believe in every and any single word they say...
And I do believe in numbers too, after all, once on the paper and skilfully used, they show the real and the only truthful reality. Don't they?

Get rid of Ha-mas, get rid of ultra-zionists in Israel and you'll end up with nice and quiet part of the world. Oh, and have I said beautiful?

BigDuffman

FiSe wrote: »

..Indymedia are the most reliable sources on the planet. And I believe in every and any single word they say...

First of all I would always be wary of believing any single word that anyone can say. Particularly from unverified and unaccountable biased sources.

I'm a huge supporter of free press and independent media.

Ie. great work done by http://www.btselem.org/english/

Indymedia would be a fantastic and ultimately reliable source if not for the lowest common denominator that tends to use indymedia as a means for spreading biased dis-information. That being the non-productive crusty far left / disillusioned anarchist.

FiSe the solution of removing the polar parties involved in this is wonderfully simple and can be applied globally. But unfortunately it will never happen.

Exposing the attrocities carried out by both parties in conflict is the only way to give the exposure necessary.

International opinion isn't always anti-Israel. For a laugh listen to the US right wing radio jocks giving out about little Israel being bullied by Palestine etc.

dvpower

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the fact that the Israelis where able to defend themselves better does not excuse Hamas targetting civilians in the first place.

True.

I also think its true that Israel also has the skills and resources to target their military power in a more discrimate manner which leaves them fully culpable for the high number of civilian casualties that they inflicted.

Fratton Fred

dvpower wrote: »

I also think its true that Israel also has the skills and resources to target their military power in a more discrimate manner which leaves them fully culpable for the high number of civilian casualties that they inflicted.

i don't think anyone would argue otherwise tbh.

FiSe

BigDuffman wrote: »

First of all I would always be wary of believing any single word that anyone can say. Particularly from unverified and unaccountable biased sources.

I'm a huge supporter of free press and independent media.

Ie. great work done by http://www.btselem.org/english/

Indymedia would be a fantastic and ultimately reliable source if not for the lowest common denominator that tends to use indymedia as a means for spreading biased dis-information. That being the non-productive crusty far left / disillusioned anarchist.

FiSe the solution of removing the polar parties involved in this is wonderfully simple and can be applied globally. But unfortunately it will never happen.

Exposing the attrocities carried out by both parties in conflict is the only way to give the exposure necessary.

International opinion isn't always anti-Israel. For a laugh listen to the US right wing radio jocks giving out about little Israel being bullied by Palestine etc.

That's exactly what I've said... I am aware that the problem is much more complicated. And as long as people on both sides /and it really doesn't matter of which country we are talking about/ will allow to be bullied by their 'leaders' there will be, unfortunately, no change.
You can't say who's right and who's wrong or who's fired the first bullet. Well, I can't anyway. If Ha-mas would have an aircraft and tanks, then, these will be used to attack 'enemy targets' and as long as the enemy is state of Israel then anything in that state would be attacked by those.
If Israel would have no army, then it would be them who'd be firing rockets over the wall to nearest Palestinian city.

One rocket or suicide attack does not justify mass air strike. From the other hand air strike should not justify firing of rockets.

Both sides are wrong and people on both sides are suffering as a result of incapability of their leaders to find solution to this problem.
Palestinians are dependant on their jobs in Israel and everybody know what happens if one single rocket is fired from the Gaza or the West Bank. Yet these are being fired...
Sometimes seems to me, that we are forgetting that 90% of population doesn't care about some political ballast as long as they can live their everyday lives. I believe that Israeli boys and girls are not bloodthirsty beasts and want to do their service in the IDF without firing their weapons and going into war yet again and I am convinced that most of the young Palestinians would have nothing against their neighbour as long as they can live in peace.

I know that international opinion is not always anti-Israel and some European states are traditionally ISR allies.
But, public opinion is created by media. Media are driven by profit, it's business after all, and articles are written by, often, very biased and dilettante reporters and most of the reader, listeners and watchers will never ever be bothered to check the facts for themselves. One nice example is here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055601921

Anyway, the points am trying to make is:
- Thanks fcuk for the report, maybe it's the first good report from AI
- Both parties are guilty and both parties should be put under unbiased international pressure
- If someone wants to know more, Israel is nice and relatively safe country with a lot of history and we have a holiday season now, so why not to drop over there for a week or two?


I think that's it... and no, I'm not working for tourism board of Israel

cypharius

But we do need to keep in consideration, many more are dying from starvation, Infection, etc. Israel is responsible for this too, as it blocks all aid to Palestine.

Manic Moran

I also think its true that Israel also has the skills and resources to target their military power in a more discrimate manner which leaves them fully culpable for the high number of civilian casualties that they inflicted.

I trust you understand the scale of the destruction which would have occurred had the Israelis not even tried to worry about hitting the wrong target. I mean, they really could do it for much cheaper than they did if they used unguided munitions or kept themselves to munitions with normal burst radii. It's the difference between a $500 bomb and a $25,000 missile.

NTM

uprising

http://www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUSLE682552._CH_.2400

From the horses mouth.....